What does it take to have salvation?

Winken said:

John 1:12, John 3:16; John 3:18; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:47; John 6:53-54; John 8:24; John 20:31; Acts 10:43; Acts 13:39; Acts 16:31; Romans 4:1-25; Galatians 3:6-22;Ephesians 1:7.

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A list of proof texts eh? Alright.

John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Romans 6:3-9, Ephesians 5:26, Colossians 2:11-13, Galatians 3:27, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21

-CryptoLutheran

Robban said:

That is where our natural/animal soul resides,
but we also have as part of our soul (Yechida/singularity)
a unity with it's source, the singular essence of G-d,
the essence of the soul of man is "literally a part of G-d above.

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I think our soul as an activity of God.

ViaCrucis said:

And there we have it. As I said, all you're doing is replacing already existing denominations and traditions with your own. By asserting that Baptism [in water] is not only not the new birth, but additionally assigning it a position of total non-importance you are introducing your own doctrines and teachings and a new kind of Christianity.

Hence: Winkenism. What you are promoting is a Winken's brand of Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran

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It's why I struggle to take a lot of Protestants (especially radical Protestants) seriously; there's ten trillion different belief systems. Who should I believe? But in my opinion, your commentary is very valuable. I've always found Lutheranism interesting. It helps that my fiancee is Lutheran too.

gordRedeemed said:

I didn't realize some brands of Christianity don't have doctrines or creeds that they follow. I imagine fairly liberal ones like the United Church or something where you can believe whatever?

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I understand there is a liberal congregational group who are very inclusive, meaning people can stay the way they have been.

But Jesus died on the cross for any and all sinners, and in order for us to be forgiven, not for us to continue in what is not God's desire for us. And it is about not only what happens to us, but caring about how God feels about us. Salvation means we become new creatures, with new personalities, even, of gentle and humble love and "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30). This is what God does with us, in saving us and correcting us to become like Him in His love. So, if people want to stay the same way while they adopt a certain group of beliefs and people to associate with, this is what is not really good religion, I would think, since you are being your own judge and creator of what you see fit.

"and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again." (2 Corinthians 5:15)

But there is religion which God wants >

"Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world." (James 1:27)

You might go to a Bible claiming church and ask a number of individuals what the Bible says about religion, and see what each one says. In the same church, I'll bet you'l get different answers. And then, after each one has said whatever, bring up James 1:27 and ask what they understand.

By the way, I do not see anything about beliefs and practices, here, though there are things which God wants us to understand and do.

But this James 1:27 religion means, I consider, >personally< visiting "orphans and widows in their trouble". Plus, there is the keeping ourselves "unspotted from the world" part. Ones might prefer to argue against and criticize religion, instead of dealing with how real and Biblical religion has us keeping ourselves unspotted from this evil world. Because in order to stay unspotted, we need to become strong against how worry can degrade us, and unforgiveness can keep us weak so we can be messed by different things which are not spiritually and emotionally good. And we need to become strong against different sorts of lusts, including lusts for sexual sensations and food and power and control and money and security and drugs and drinking and gambling and nicotine . . . and arguing in order to have our own way.

These things can get us messed . . . spotted; and the correction which can make us strong against this is very demanding, only possible with God > Hebrews 12:4-11. So, people can be intimidated by all the Bible means by this, and they can prefer to make a project of calling attention and criticism elsewhere, to human sorts of religion, instead of seeking the correction we ourselves need.

I understand that if Jesus saves us, He does not only give us a one-time quick-fix ticket to Heaven and that's it. But in saving us, He brings us to what is safe . . . how God deeply corrects us and cures us in His love so we can not be spotted by the messy and nasty things of Satan's evil spirit > "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2). We are told what to get rid of, and how to become >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

He saves us, by making us safe in His love and His love's immunity almighty >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

This is basic, of how we become in God's own love - - - which the Holy Spirit in us shares with us >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

I trust that if we have been saved to always stay saved, then this is part of the process . . . how God succeeds in first saving us but then makes us safe in His love > 1 John 4:17.

com7fy8 said:

I understand there is a liberal congregational group who are very inclusive, meaning people can stay the way they have been.

But Jesus died on the cross for any and all sinners, and in order for us to be forgiven, not for us to continue in what is not God's desire for us. And it is about not only what happens to us, but caring about how God feels about us. Salvation means we become new creatures, with new personalities, even, of gentle and humble love and "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30). This is what God does with us, in saving us and correcting us to become like Him in His love. So, if people want to stay the same way while they adopt a certain group of beliefs and people to associate with, this is what is not really good religion, I would think, since you are being your own judge and creator of what you see fit.

"and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again." (2 Corinthians 5:15)

But there is religion which God wants >

"Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world." (James 1:27)

You might go to a Bible claiming church and ask a number of individuals what the Bible says about religion, and see what each one says. In the same church, I'll bet you'l get different answers. And then, after each one has said whatever, bring up James 1:27 and ask what they understand.

By the way, I do not see anything about beliefs and practices, here, though there are things which God wants us to understand and do.

But this James 1:27 religion means, I consider, >personally< visiting "orphans and widows in their trouble". Plus, there is the keeping ourselves "unspotted from the world" part. Ones might prefer to argue against and criticize religion, instead of dealing with how real and Biblical religion has us keeping ourselves unspotted from this evil world. Because in order to stay unspotted, we need to become strong against how worry can degrade us, and unforgiveness can keep us weak so we can be messed by different things which are not spiritually and emotionally good. And we need to become strong against different sorts of lusts, including lusts for sexual sensations and food and power and control and money and security and drugs and drinking and gambling and nicotine . . . and arguing in order to have our own way.

These things can get us messed . . . spotted; and the correction which can make us strong against this is very demanding, only possible with God > Hebrews 12:4-11. So, people can be intimidated by all the Bible means by this, and they can prefer to make a project of calling attention and criticism elsewhere, to human sorts of religion, instead of seeking the correction we ourselves need.

I understand that if Jesus saves us, He does not only give us a one-time quick-fix ticket to Heaven and that's it. But in saving us, He brings us to what is safe . . . how God deeply corrects us and cures us in His love so we can not be spotted by the messy and nasty things of Satan's evil spirit > "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2). We are told what to get rid of, and how to become >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

He saves us, by making us safe in His love and His love's immunity almighty >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

This is basic, of how we become in God's own love - - - which the Holy Spirit in us shares with us >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

I trust that if we have been saved to always stay saved, then this is part of the process . . . how God succeeds in first saving us but then makes us safe in His love > 1 John 4:17.

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Thank You! Nothing more appreciated than a well-written Christian commentary.

Winken said:

Hebrew folk were immersed in anticipation of the arrival of the Messiah. They wanted to be prepared. Christians receive Jesus as Savior upon confession, Romans 10:8-13. One can be immersed in H2O, or sprinkled, if one wishes. It is not a requirement for salvation, not required for eternal life.

G'Nite --- be blessed!

(Sorry ....... the "Amen" smiley face isn't working at the moment)....

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There was usually some haste to water baptize those who accepted the Gospel of the kingdom. This was complete immersion not a sprinkle. It was done as a conscious decision between the individual and God.

The apostle or disciple then lay his hands on the head so that the Holy Spirit would be given.

After I was water baptized at 19 the church was abandoned after three visits for tramping and work. At 24 a move was made into a rural environment on some purchased land and full time work was given up. At 26 I was working quietly and God opened up my mind. This was very powerful and changed my belief immediately and profoundly. The Spirit revealed where God is and that Jesus walked the earth and rose to be immortal. The mind of an immortal was shown in mine as a comparison and how mine did not measure up.
I woke up at first light one morning on my back to see a full color hand over my head and this was taken to be a blessing. Full concepts were coming into my mind with out effort, God was teaching me.
The attempt was made to go to churches but had a few difficulties and decided to work on technological inventions.
At 40 a 3 day health fast went for 3 weeks being lead by the spirit through a complete mind renewal that revealed the divine nature and God energized the Love in this nature powerfully.
Since then there have been a few difficulties when I was not protected because of an accommodating disposition. If Satan and his demons are recognized in others as they speak they must be dealt with immediately. Think what Jesus said to Peter.

When a person has a spiritual encounter is should be measured against scripture as to what it testifies. It should be done in a positive manner not to find fault but with some discernment and in the correct Spirit.

It is the Spirit that renews and regenerates but water baptism is an important as a first step between the individual and God.

@Winken Thank you, Winken, for the encouragement; God bless you, too

@ViaCrucis > you gave these scriptures which people use to support that we must be baptized in physical water, in order to be saved > I will offer things I have learned, which may or may not be Winkinist >

John 3:5 > Jesus later refers to the Holy Spirit as "rivers of living water", in John 3:37-39. We need to be born of God, not of what is physical. So, I consider it reasonable, that here Jesus is using "water" as a symbolic representation of the Holy Spirit, along with "Spirit", in order to show how the Holy Spirit is refreshing like water (Acts 3:19) and powerful and life-giving Spirit to make us born by making us alive in Jesus, after having been dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1-3).

Acts 2:38 > Peter says to be baptized "in the name of Jesus Christ". He does not say the baptism has to mean in physical water > I notice how in Acts 3:19 Peter says to repent and "be converted" . . . not "baptized" > I consider that conversion from sin to Jesus is a baptism > also, considering Acts 26:18, how we needed to be turned "from the power of Satan to God" < certainly a baptism removing us from Satan's power and immersing us "with God". Plus, Jesus uses the word "baptized" to refer to what is clearly not water, in Luke 12:50. He had already been water baptized; yet He had a baptism yet to come. I consider that the "baptism of repentance" (Mark 1:4) can mean how repentance is our change from being of this world, to being baptized spiritually into God's kingdom . . . totally removed from the vain air of this world, to being totally immersed in the refreshing and loving waters of our Heavenly Father's realm. And I offer how Romans 6:3-9 could support this >

Romans 6:3-9 > This says we have been "baptized into His death". His death came before He was buried; so I consider this can not mean being immersed . . . buried . . . in water . . . since His death came before His burial, and immersion baptism is a burial. Again, the word "baptism" does not always mean with physical water. Ones have the expression, a "baptism of fire". So, being baptized with Jesus in His death would mean what? Was Jesus on the cross getting wet with water? No. Was Jesus loving any and all people? Yes. So, if I truly get baptized with Jesus on the cross, I consider I have been joined with Jesus in His all-loving love which had Him so care for us and suffer and die for us, and for any and all people. And I consider that, by living this love which had Jesus die for us, this is what Jesus means by carrying our cross "daily" > Luke 9:23.

By the way, do you think Jesus meant for people to make such an emphasis on physical water as being necessary for salvation, or did He choose the wording He did, so we now can keep learning more about how to love?

Ephesians 5:26 > "the washing of water by the word" > well, to my knowledge, no one while preaching is spraying people with a hose. Here, I think, it is understood that "water" means how the Holy Spirit in us effects us with God's spiritual meaning of His words which we hear. While we receive God's word, we also deeply are benefitting from how His grace and peace in us effects us with His love meaning of His word. The Holy Spirit is "rivers of living water", flowing through us, like a mother's blood liquid flowing across her unborn baby's placenta to form into a wiggling squiggling giggling baby; and, like this, the Holy Spirit flows through us to form into Jesus as our new inner Person > Galatians 4:19

Colossians 2:11-13 > Yes, this does say, "buried with Him in baptism". But Romans 6 shows that we were "baptized into His death", and this was before the burial. And I have offered how this can mean much more than a relationship with physical water.

Galatians 3:27 > This says we who have been baptized into Jesus have put on Christ. Well, physical water can't do this. The Holy Spirit can.

Titus 3:5 > This says God has saved us "through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit". Physical water can not regenerate us, but the Holy Spirit who is "rivers of living water" can wash us and regenerate and renew us.

1 Peter 3:21 > this can simply mean how baptism can be "the answer of a good conscience toward God" > bringing a total change from being of this world, to becoming baptized into God's kingdom. Baptism can simply mean total immersion in something . . . not only possibly in water, but in a baptismal trial by fire, or being baptized from Satan's kingdom into God's kingdom. And there was that baptism with which Jesus was not yet baptized, though He had already been water baptized by John. Again, the "baptism of repentance" (Mark 1:4) can mean that repentance is the baptism; and the answer of a good conscience can be the change of mind . . . repenting . . . which is the baptism.

The process of discipling someone into a group can be a baptism . . . a total immersion in learning the things and ways of the group. So, also . . . ones could be assuming, when they suppose the baptism in the name of our Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit has to mean physical immersion. Jesus says to teach all which He has commanded > "all" can mean a total immersion, certainly in more than water.

But water baptism is good, if we are confessing Jesus before men > Matthew 10:32. So, physical water baptism is not insignificant. It can be a time of celebration that one has trusted in Jesus and now is a child of God (Ephesians 1:12), an occasion to share with one another as family with our Father and His Son and the Holy Spirit and with one another who are family in Jesus while using the baptism time to reach to others who need Jesus.

dlamberth said:

I think our soul as an activity of God.

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If there is nowhere He is not,
then......

Even so, we have our desires,
what can be called the "animal soul" is driven by the quest for self-preservation and self-enhancement.
The G-dly part is driven by the desire to reconnect with it's source.

It is not rocket science really, in the Christian World there are terms,
which probably boil down to the same thing.

Maybe it is about thnking a little higher, "I lift up my eyes......"

to be brought up out of Egypt.

After the great war, they would still shine searchlights in the sky at night,
when the sun came out I would lay in the grass and search too,
trying to see where it all ended,
I,m still wondering over the vastness.

com7fy8 said:

I understand there is a liberal congregational group who are very inclusive, meaning people can stay the way they have been.

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I was being a bit sarcastic in response to the classic Christian response that their religion isn't....a religion.

oops

@ViaCrucis > you gave these scriptures which people use to support that we must be baptized in physical water, in order to be saved > I will offer things I have learned, which may or may not be Winkinist >[/quote]

Actually I don't believe that one absolutely must be baptized in order to be saved; but that baptism is the ordinary means by which God unites us to Jesus and thus grants us the salvation that is in Jesus is I believe the biblical confession. The issue is not "must one, absolutely, be baptized to be saved?" but rather, "what is Baptism and what does Baptism do?" The passages I quoted are for the second question, not the first.

John 3:5 > Jesus later refers to the Holy Spirit as "rivers of living water", in John 3:37-39. We need to be born of God, not of what is physical. So, I consider it reasonable, that here Jesus is using "water" as a symbolic representation of the Holy Spirit, along with "Spirit", in order to show how the Holy Spirit is refreshing like water (Acts 3:19) and powerful and life-giving Spirit to make us born by making us alive in Jesus, after having been dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1-3).

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And yet every Christian commentator from the earliest years of the Christian faith understood "water and Spirit" to refer to nothing else other than Baptism. Further if by "water" Jesus means the Holy Spirit, wouldn't it be a little strange for Jesus to, in effect, be saying one must be born of "the Spirit and the Spirit"? The Holy Spirit is already mentioned here, the issue is what then is the water? Considering Jesus' statement to Nicodemus that he is a teacher of Israel and yet does not know these things indicates that Nicodemus should have some inkling of what Jesus is talking about. Conversion to Judaism, both in ancient times as well as today, involves several things, one of those things is a ritual washing (tevilah) in the mikveh. Christian Baptism is anteceded by Jewish tevilah, but this ritual washing in Christianity has a very distinctive Christian meaning, and that it is distinct and different from other washings can be seen in Acts 19 where Paul encounters a group of followers of St. John the Baptist who had received John's baptism of repentance (in preparation and anticipation of the coming of the Messiah) who Paul then administers Christian Baptism to, then afterward lays hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 > Peter says to be baptized "in the name of Jesus Christ". He does not say the baptism has to mean in physical water > I notice how in Acts 3:19 Peter says to repent and "be converted" . . . not "baptized" > I consider that conversion from sin to Jesus is a baptism > also, considering Acts 26:18, how we needed to be turned "from the power of Satan to God" < certainly a baptism removing us from Satan's power and immersing us "with God". Plus, Jesus uses the word "baptized" to refer to what is clearly not water, in Luke 12:50. He had already been water baptized; yet He had a baptism yet to come. I consider that the "baptism of repentance" (Mark 1:4) can mean how repentance is our change from being of this world, to being baptized spiritually into God's kingdom . . . totally removed from the vain air of this world, to being totally immersed in the refreshing and loving waters of our Heavenly Father's realm. And I offer how Romans 6:3-9 could support this >

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But to say that the baptism mentioned in Acts 2:38 is anything other than ordinary Baptism requires some sort of warrant. Whenever the concept of baptism is used to refer to something else it is qualified as such, either explicitly or at least implicitly. Jesus inquires, "can you drink the cup I drink, or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?" (Mark 10:38) He refers to the cup and to baptism as metaphors for His suffering and death. Paul refers to the children of Israel as receiving a kind of baptism in their wanderings in the desert. John the Baptist speaks of He who will "baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire" which was fulfilled on Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out. So, yes, the concept of baptism is applied in non-standard ways, and when done so the meaning is most usually explicit.

But how are we to interpret plain and ordinary "baptism"? What does a non-qualified, ordinary baptism look like? Scripture never says "physical baptism" or "water baptism" those aren't biblical terms. The biblical term is simply baptism, and there is no reason to believe anything other than the most plain meaning of the term and the text.

Romans 6:3-9 > This says we have been "baptized into His death". His death came before He was buried; so I consider this can not mean being immersed . . . buried . . . in water . . . since His death came before His burial, and immersion baptism is a burial. Again, the word "baptism" does not always mean with physical water. Ones have the expression, a "baptism of fire". So, being baptized with Jesus in His death would mean what? Was Jesus on the cross getting wet with water? No. Was Jesus loving any and all people? Yes. So, if I truly get baptized with Jesus on the cross, I consider I have been joined with Jesus in His all-loving love which had Him so care for us and suffer and die for us, and for any and all people. And I consider that, by living this love which had Jesus die for us, this is what Jesus means by carrying our cross "daily" > Luke 9:23.

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We were baptized into His death, therefore buried with Him in baptism, in order that we might share in the life of His resurrection.

By the way, do you think Jesus meant for people to make such an emphasis on physical water as being necessary for salvation, or did He choose the wording He did, so we now can keep learning more about how to love?

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I think the words mean precisely what they seem to mean, there's no hidden message here.

Ephesians 5:26 > "the washing of water by the word" > well, to my knowledge, no one while preaching is spraying people with a hose. Here, I think, it is understood that "water" means how the Holy Spirit in us effects us with God's spiritual meaning of His words which we hear. While we receive God's word, we also deeply are benefitting from how His grace and peace in us effects us with His love meaning of His word. The Holy Spirit is "rivers of living water", flowing through us, like a mother's blood liquid flowing across her unborn baby's placenta to form into a wiggling squiggling giggling baby; and, like this, the Holy Spirit flows through us to form into Jesus as our new inner Person > Galatians 4:19

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St. Augustine offers us a very helpful definition of a Sacrament when he says that a Sacrament is the Word of God connected to a visible element, and calls Sacraments "visible words", the visible Word of God. It is not that people are being "hosed" when there is preaching, but from this we see that in the washing of water there is God's word, the Gospel, the holy promises of God. The Church has been washed in Baptism, not by mere water, but water connected to and with God's word, the Gospel.

Colossians 2:11-13 > Yes, this does say, "buried with Him in baptism". But Romans 6 shows that we were "baptized into His death", and this was before the burial. And I have offered how this can mean much more than a relationship with physical water.

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That Christ died before He was buried doesn't change the reality that in Baptism we have been baptized into His death and therefore we have been buried with Him in order that we might share in His resurrection life. That's the meaning here and in Romans 6.

Galatians 3:27 > This says we who have been baptized into Jesus have put on Christ. Well, physical water can't do this. The Holy Spirit can.

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And the Holy Spirit does this through Baptism, not because mere water can affect such things, but God's word connected to the water most certainly can. If God has declared it to be so, why should we deny it?

Titus 3:5 > This says God has saved us "through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit". Physical water can not regenerate us, but the Holy Spirit who is "rivers of living water" can wash us and regenerate and renew us.

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Mere water cannot, but water connected to and with the word of God can, by the power of God who has declared what this baptism is for.

1 Peter 3:21 > this can simply mean how baptism can be "the answer of a good conscience toward God" > bringing a total change from being of this world, to becoming baptized into God's kingdom. Baptism can simply mean total immersion in something . . . not only possibly in water, but in a baptismal trial by fire, or being baptized from Satan's kingdom into God's kingdom. And there was that baptism with which Jesus was not yet baptized, though He had already been water baptized by John. Again, the "baptism of repentance" (Mark 1:4) can mean that repentance is the baptism; and the answer of a good conscience can be the change of mind . . . repenting . . . which is the baptism.

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1 Peter pretty explicitly connects the language of the flood with baptism, in order to say "baptism which now saves you" which is not merely a washing of dirt from the body, but we are told what this baptism accomplishes--a pledge of a new conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The process of discipling someone into a group can be a baptism . . . a total immersion in learning the things and ways of the group. So, also . . . ones could be assuming, when they suppose the baptism in the name of our Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit has to mean physical immersion. Jesus says to teach all which He has commanded > "all" can mean a total immersion, certainly in more than water.

But water baptism is good, if we are confessing Jesus before men > Matthew 10:32. So, physical water baptism is not insignificant. It can be a time of celebration that one has trusted in Jesus and now is a child of God (Ephesians 1:12), an occasion to share with one another as family with our Father and His Son and the Holy Spirit and with one another who are family in Jesus while using the baptism time to reach to others who need Jesus.

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How can one say "water baptism is good" unless it actually exists for some reason? If we remove every instance of Scripture talking about baptism as not referring to ordinary baptism, then what is "water baptism" and where is it in Scripture, and what good is it?

There exists no instance in Scripture which baptism (in water) is some outward act or public declaration--that's not a biblical idea and only exists in the minds of some modern Christians who have chosen to reject biblical teaching and the historic confession of the entire Church throughout all history.

It's like arguing that when it says Jesus died on a cross, "cross" doesn't mean "cross of wood" but rather is a spiritual cross, and when wood is mentioned, it actually refers to Jesus as the the vine or some such. And then to argue that Jesus didn't actually die on a cross at all, but was spiritually crucified to show us that He is the source of, something, fill in the blank.

-CryptoLutheran

Robban said:

If there is nowhere He is not,
then......

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...Everywhere one looks, there God is.

The G-dly part is driven by the desire to reconnect with it's source.

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Through Love, Harmony and Beauty.

fatboys said:

Allan these type of experiences need to be more sacred. What I mean is that these type of spiritual experiences are of a private nature and should not displayed so people can mock it. That is just my view. Don't cast pearls before swine.

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I realize the scriptures are written the way they are to hide the truth. But even the very elect could be deceived if the truth was not known. The mockers are already judged.

Winken said:

Hebrew folk were immersed in anticipation of the arrival of the Messiah. They wanted to be prepared.

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The Mikvah was not some kind of Messiah preparation time. It was about maintaining ritual purity after becoming defiled in some way. One of those ways is menstruation, so let's not dwell on how it's "evil" or anything, as it isn't.

Believe in Jesus.
John 5:24 (Jesus speaking) "I tell you the truth, whoever hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life."
TD

/

vinsight4u said:

your sin debt

Jesus Christ paid the price with His totally holy
Self when He shed His precious blood for you.

You will either die -
in your sins
or
in Christ

You choose.

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Yeah, that is a peculiarly Christian conception not shared by those of other religions. Most of the other Abrahamic religions hold that God can forgive any way He wishes to. It doesn't require a blood sacrifice.

smaneck said:

Yeah, that is a peculiarly Christian conception not shared by those of other religions. Most of the other Abrahamic religions hold that God can forgive any way He wishes to. It doesn't require a blood sacrifice.

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And the more you think about it, the more absurd does the "logic" behind blood sacrifices become.
Whenever I read some biblical passage about YHVH regarding the stench of burnt sacrifices as a "pleasing aroma", I always hear Michael Caine proclaiming: "Some men just want to see the world burn."

dlamberth said:

Christianities requirement for a salvation package is the image of a Judgmental God standing ready to send His own creation to Hell....

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This is what some Christians believe, but by no means all.