The Father IS God, the Son IS God and the Holy Spirit IS God. How many Gods are there? ONE?
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PsychoeDial
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You shall find there are a huge number of conversations about the trinity on the boards here. What did the Lord say in Deuteronomy 6:4?
And then in John 4:24?
Now in Isaiah 55:8?
There's a reason those are out of order. God is one. He is a spirit. We can't conceive of God's ineffability. However, what I believe is hoped to come across in his word is that God is like you are if you wish to understand what is commonly referred to as the trinity.
My pastor back in the states once used this analogy to describe the trifold beingness of God so as to make it comprehensible in contemporary imagery.
He used himself as an example so here goes: "I'm a pastor, a husband, and a father. Does this mean there are three men living in the family house? No. It means I am one man in three forms of duty and responsibility and therefore identity. But I am still that one man in all those things I do that are called, pastor, husband, father."
That's God. There are not three. As he told us , there's only the one.
Who is a spirit, who is a holy spirit,1 Peter 1:16, and who came to the earth to prove his truth and existence to the world as Yehoshua/Yeshua/Jesus Christ. [ "anointed deliverer"]http://www.hebrew-streams.org/frontstuff/jesus-yeshua.html
John 10:30.
Just my thoughts. I hope this assists your search. God bless.
And then in John 4:24?
Now in Isaiah 55:8?
There's a reason those are out of order. God is one. He is a spirit. We can't conceive of God's ineffability. However, what I believe is hoped to come across in his word is that God is like you are if you wish to understand what is commonly referred to as the trinity.
My pastor back in the states once used this analogy to describe the trifold beingness of God so as to make it comprehensible in contemporary imagery.
He used himself as an example so here goes: "I'm a pastor, a husband, and a father. Does this mean there are three men living in the family house? No. It means I am one man in three forms of duty and responsibility and therefore identity. But I am still that one man in all those things I do that are called, pastor, husband, father."
That's God. There are not three. As he told us , there's only the one.
Who is a spirit, who is a holy spirit,1 Peter 1:16, and who came to the earth to prove his truth and existence to the world as Yehoshua/Yeshua/Jesus Christ. [ "anointed deliverer"]http://www.hebrew-streams.org/frontstuff/jesus-yeshua.html
John 10:30.
Just my thoughts. I hope this assists your search. God bless.
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That is a denial of God’s triune nature.
At best, this is Modalism which attempts to explain the Trinity simply but denies there are three persons.
The best explanation I have found is in Wayne Grudem’s works on Systematic Theology. This clearly sets out three true statements about the nature of God.
1. God is three persons
2. Each person is fully God
3. There is one God
God is three persons and there is one God. The being of each person is equal to the whole being of God. God is not one person and there are not three God’s.
What appears to be an impossible contradiction to us, is not impossible for God. To simplify it so we can fully comprehend it, diminishes His greatness which is far beyond our own. God is greater than anything we could fully understand or even imagine and I do not understand why people try to shrink God down to something that is less than that. We must simply accept the way God has shown Himself to be. I am so glad that God, even in His very nature, is beyond our full comprehension. The Trinity is just another way in which God is unfathomable and I am so glad He is.
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Hieronymus
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YHWH Elohim, the Godhead, is ONE.
It however contains the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the Angel of God, the Name, Melchizedek and maybe i forget some..
Non the less, it appearsthe Father is the ultimate GOD within YHWH Elohim.
Yet, in the beginning was the Word...
I'll probably never fully understand though, as long as this body is my home..
It however contains the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the Angel of God, the Name, Melchizedek and maybe i forget some..
Non the less, it appearsthe Father is the ultimate GOD within YHWH Elohim.
Yet, in the beginning was the Word...
I'll probably never fully understand though, as long as this body is my home..
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PsychoeDial
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No, it is not.
No it isn't but that is an excuse those who aren't familiar with the context of scripture typically throw into these type conversations. Polytheism isn't scriptural and that is exactly what people who argue there are three different 'gods' are doing.
Good copy and paste.
That's exactly what I said.
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I hear you, Paul. Can't say as I agree, however. Granted, God is transcendent. However, that does not mean that we can't fathom or understand anything about God, that God's some big, mysterious X that we all believe in. There is the matter of revelation, for example. Also, consider how we go about gaining knowledge. All knowing is analogous knowing. We generalize from the familiar to the unfamiliar. Now, if there is one thing we are most familiar with, it is human experience and existence. So, unless there is a real analogy, a real likeness between ourselves and the rest of reality, including God, then we haven't got an inkling what's going on. Remember, the biblical God is a highly anthropomorphic God, not some passionless absolute.
I realize many are fond of saying that the Trinity is a big mystery, appears contradictory, because it is beyond our understanding. I disagree. I think the Trinity may appear confusing and contradictory, simply due to the muddled thinking on the part of the fathers. Because the Bible is not a book in metaphysics, they looked to Hellenic metaphysics, in their Trinitarian formulas. They went for certain major schools of Hellenic philosophy which argued the world of time, change, matter is a big illusion, evil. The divine, the "really real," was a wholly immaterial, simple, immutable domain. Then then defined God as a simple nonrelational being, a monad. Then they introduced the highly complicated, relational machinery of teh Trinity into this monad. The result was contradiction and confusion.
I realize that many today hold with a social theory of the Trinity, that God is a cosmic society of three unique personalities who work together in harmony. That idea goes way back to the early Cappadocians. However, to myself and many others, it is polytheism, pure and simple. Three men working together are still three men. Three gods working together are still three gods. There is no mystery of God here, just muddled thinking.
I realize many are fond of saying that the Trinity is a big mystery, appears contradictory, because it is beyond our understanding. I disagree. I think the Trinity may appear confusing and contradictory, simply due to the muddled thinking on the part of the fathers. Because the Bible is not a book in metaphysics, they looked to Hellenic metaphysics, in their Trinitarian formulas. They went for certain major schools of Hellenic philosophy which argued the world of time, change, matter is a big illusion, evil. The divine, the "really real," was a wholly immaterial, simple, immutable domain. Then then defined God as a simple nonrelational being, a monad. Then they introduced the highly complicated, relational machinery of teh Trinity into this monad. The result was contradiction and confusion.
I realize that many today hold with a social theory of the Trinity, that God is a cosmic society of three unique personalities who work together in harmony. That idea goes way back to the early Cappadocians. However, to myself and many others, it is polytheism, pure and simple. Three men working together are still three men. Three gods working together are still three gods. There is no mystery of God here, just muddled thinking.
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ViaCrucis
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It is Modalism though.
Modalism, more technically Modalistic Monarchianism, was the heretical teaching that God was a single "hypostasis" who wore three different identities, or filled three different roles or functions. The Modalists taught that the single hypostasis of God was like an actor in a Greek theater who wore different masks or "faces" (Greek prosopa).
Trinitarianism, by contrast, is clear that God doesn't wear different faces, the Father and the Son are not two identities, roles, or faces which the one God wears when interacting with us; the Father is actually Father of the Son, and the Son is actually Son of the Father. There is an actual three-ness in regard to God, the Father has begotten the Son from all eternity, and the Son being begotten of the Father from all eternity is therefore also God. The Son is not another god, He is actually and really God even as the Father is actually and really God.
For the Son has, from the Father, the Father's own Deity--what the Father is the Son is also.
The reason why this doesn't result in there being three Gods is because the Godhead is not like a created substance which can have multiple instances (Bob is the father of Joe, they're both human, but Joe is a separate human being than Bob) it is fundamentally unique, indivisible, etc. So we say that the Son is homoousios with the Father, of the same Being or Nature or Substance or Essence. The Son is the same Divine Being that the Father is, not a different one. And hence there is only one God.
-CryptoLutheran
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You have multiple beings in your definition with one of them being greater than the others. This is Polytheism.
Jesus instructed Ma 28:19 to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. There are no others in the Godhead. God the Father is not the ultimate God because they are all equal because they are all fully God. You cannot divide them from each other because They are one being. What the Father is doing, the Son and Holy Spirit are doing because They are one.
Where do you find that the Bible teaches other beings in the Godhead?
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Hieronymus
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Yet in the beginning was the Word. (John 1)
It's One God none the less.
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It was not stated that we could not fathom anything or understand anything about God. Unfathomable was used in the sense of not being able fully comprehend everything. God is infinite but we are finite. We would need infinite knowledge to understanding everything there is to understand about Him. I believe we can fathom some things or understand some things about God. I am very thankful for what I understand about God and I hope I will never stop increasing in my understanding of Him.
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Yes and Jn 1:14 shows that the Word refers to the second Person of the Godhead, God the Son, not a fourth or fifth etc person of the Godhead.
When you define one person of the Godhead as greater than the other persons of the Godhead, you define them as unequal beings. That is not the same as one indivisible being. In the Trinity, each person of the Godhead equals the whole.
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Hieronymus
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It would actually show when you write
John 1:14
It says the Word was made flesh.
This was in around 33 BC.
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Hieronymus
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I was actually wondering what your point was with John 1:14.
The Word was in the beginning, the Word was made flesh in 33 BC.
Yet we see a physical God in the OT as well...
Whosoever truly understands is welcome to explain...
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As stated, there are only three persons in the Godhead. Jn 1:14 shows that the Word in Jn 1:1 is not another person outside of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. God the Son is also called the Word.
Are you referring to an instance where God appears as a person to Abraham or as a burning bush to Moses? God is everywhere and can appear how He likes to whomever He likes. This does mean or prove that every time He shows up it is another person of the Godhead.
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Boy - I am confused by all the follow up.... I did see Modalism in there (the whole Father, Son, Husband thing for sure...since that conception is uniquely mono-personal rather than tri-personal).
If there are three persons - there are three person Gods
If there is one nature - there is one nature God
In other words - the trinity is a nifty hybrid between poly and mono-theism - and it simply depends on which aspect you are referring to in order to answer your question. So I suppose the real answer is - "Both"!
If there are three persons - there are three person Gods
If there is one nature - there is one nature God
In other words - the trinity is a nifty hybrid between poly and mono-theism - and it simply depends on which aspect you are referring to in order to answer your question. So I suppose the real answer is - "Both"!
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It isn't all that nifty, however. If you posit, as many do, that there are three separate, unique personalities and that their "oneness" is that they all share the same nature, call it divinity of Deity, then you have actually argued there are three Gods, not one. In Norse mythology, Wotan, Brunhilde and Flicka all share divinity, yet there are three gods here. See what I mean?
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You are correct; modalism it is.
As silly as this is, I think it will help a lot; if not try the Athanasian Creed; a portion of which is quoted in the video:
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
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