The Marriage Debate

Sketcher · Feb 14, 2016

William67 said:
Did you know that there were laws against fornication in Rome? One Caesar actually banished his daughter because of her immorality. As immorality grew, the Roman Empire fractured, dividing in the 3rd century. The western empire devolved into debauchery. But the eastern empire, The Byzantine Empire, continued for another 1000 years and was the center of Christianity until being conquered by the Ottoman Turks in 1453.

The Romans had laws, but they defined the offenses in non-Christian terms. For instance, young women could become registered prostitutes. It wasn't the crime of fornication for them to do that, nor was it to sleep with one. Nor was it the crime of adultery to sleep with one if you were a married man. They simply had different, ungodly standards.

William67 · Feb 14, 2016

Cearbhall said:
In Europe? That's one specific continent. It also depended on your gender and social rank. And what about in the hundreds of thousands of years of human history before that? I've already addressed the history of Christianity. The sexual limitations that it set are not the norm in the course of human history. There was a reason why they needed to go to such extremes to enforce them.

The Code of Hammurabi had laws against fornication and adultery (c. 1780 BCE). Chinese law prohibited fornication and adultery. Sub-Saharan culture prohibited fornication and adultery. Many primitive cultures were so afraid of fornication and adultery, they circumcised females at an early age to prevent it.

These laws and actions didn't just spring into being one day, but are the results of thousands and thousands of years of "civilization". So, to be civilized, one must control their basic "urges".

William67 · Feb 14, 2016

Sketcher said:
The Romans had laws, but they defined the offenses in non-Christian terms. For instance, young women could become registered prostitutes. It wasn't the crime of fornication for them to do that, nor was it to sleep with one. Nor was it the crime of adultery to sleep with one if you were a married man. They simply had different, ungodly standards.

Those "laws" only came about during the late period of the Roman Empire, before the 3rd century as the empire devolved. Just as the US and Europe are devolving today by passing laws and activist judges who are allowing deviancy and immorality to become acceptable and legal.

Cearbhall · Feb 14, 2016

William67 said:
Sorry, but it wasn't Conservatives pushing "free love" during the 60's.

Yes, but they didn't invent it. That was my point. They rebelled against certain societal norms that weren't working for everyone.

William67 said:
Today, its any kind of sexual deviancy being pushed and endorsed by liberals. Think your a rabbit born in a human body? A middle aged dude who wants to be a 6 year old girl?

Do you have any statistics on the percentage of U.S. liberals who support delusions of species or age?

William67 said:
A woman in a man's body? Gender neutral bathrooms from K1-12th grade? Suuuuure go for it.

Again, nothing new. Not a product of hippies or liberals by any means. Look up two-spirit, fa'afafine, or hijras, for starters. And don't forget intersex conditions, which have always existed. It was the Judeo-Christian culture of the West and its colonization of other regions which established the gender binary and limited sex to marriage on a global scale. Now it's starting to be phased out. The wheel will always keep turning.

And actually, while I personally don't support the species delusions, those aren't anything new, either. All sorts of cultures have believed in spirit animals, possession, transformation, animal gods, etc. Many Christians still believe in demon possession, but I don't see you railing against that all the time.

William67 · Feb 14, 2016

Cearbhall said:
Yes, but they didn't invent it. That was my point. They rebelled against certain societal norms that weren't working for everyone.

Do you have any statistics on the percentage of U.S. liberals who support delusions of species or age?

Again, nothing new. Not a product of hippies or liberals by any means. Look up two-spirit, fa'afafine, or hijras, for starters. And don't forget intersex conditions, which have always existed. It was the Judeo-Christian culture of the West and its colonization of other regions which established the gender binary and limited sex to marriage on a global scale. Now it's starting to be phased out. The wheel will always keep turning.

And actually, while I personally don't support the species delusions, those aren't anything new, either. All sorts of cultures have believed in spirit animals, possession, transformation, animal gods, etc.

Those were primitive cultures who "mimicked" animal spirits. They didn't think they were the animal, they thought they became "possessed" by the animal spirit.

And since you seem ok with body dysmorphic syndrome, do you support people who want to amputate their healthy limbs? How about trepanation? Doesn't the APA not describe mental illness as a condition that can cause harm to themselves? Or are you like Tom Cruise and not believe in mental illness?

And I hate you tell you this, but Christianity is at its height right now, as far as numbers go. Yes, Christianity has tried to crush deviancy and perversion, but Christians weren't the first to do so. Morality is thousands and thousands of years old. There were laws and customs which forbade immorality thousands of years before Christianity. And its funny, that as each of those societies devolved morally, their societies and culture collapsed.

Sketcher · Feb 14, 2016

William67 said:
Those "laws" only came about during the late period of the Roman Empire, before the 3rd century as the empire devolved. Just as the US and Europe are devolving today by passing laws and activist judges who are allowing deviancy and immorality to become acceptable and legal.

These standards were much older than that. Much older.

Cearbhall · Feb 14, 2016

William67 said:
So, you want to be on the level of lower animals? It is laws and customs that actually keep you safe, as a woman, since most men abide by the laws of society. But, if you want to be that female animal, who "comes into season" and every male that is nearby takes his turn, go for it. Those pesky laws and social customs.

No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm not sure where you get off telling me that the laws which protect me from being raped should be thrown out if I dare to support consensual sex, but it's certainly a disturbing way of thinking. It's essentially saying "If you want the right to choose to have sex with someone, then you have to say yes to everyone." God forbid I just be allowed to make decisions about my own body, huh? Better make sure there's something in place that will stop me, even if it's rape...

William67 · Feb 14, 2016

Cearbhall said:
No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm not sure where you get off telling me that the laws which protect me from being raped should be thrown out if I dare to support consensual sex, but it's certainly a disturbing way of thinking. It's essentially saying "If you want the right to choose to have sex with someone, then you have to say yes to everyone." God forbid I just be allowed to make decisions about my own body, huh? Better make sure there's something in place that will stop me, even if it's rape...

Well, you do seem to want to get rid of all morality based laws. If not, then its just death by a thousands cuts legally. That's part of the "if it feels good, do it" ideology of liberalism.

William67 · Feb 14, 2016

Sketcher said:
These standards were much older than that. Much older.

Those laws didn't really exist at the time of the founding of the Roman Empire. It wasn't until much later in Roman history that those laws were accepted.

Sketcher · Feb 14, 2016

William67 said:
Those laws didn't really exist at the time of the founding of the Roman Empire. It wasn't until much later in Roman history that those laws were accepted.

Fornication and adultery (according to their Christian definitions) however, was rampant by the time the Empire was founded. Once Rome had conquered Greece, the damage to its culture had been done.

redblue22 · Feb 14, 2016

William67 said:
Well, you do seem to want to get rid of all morality based laws. If not, then its just death by a thousands cuts legally. That's part of the "if it feels good, do it" ideology of liberalism.

I don't see that at all.

Aryeh Jay · Feb 14, 2016

Sketcher said:
The Romans had laws, but they defined the offenses in non-Christian terms. For instance, young women could become registered prostitutes. It wasn't the crime of fornication for them to do that, nor was it to sleep with one. Nor was it the crime of adultery to sleep with one if you were a married man. They simply had different, ungodly standards.

The Romans had a god just for orgies, Bacchus, how could it be ungodly?

Oops! I see this is for singles! Sorry!

redblue22 · Feb 14, 2016

not all the gods were godly.

Sketcher · Feb 14, 2016

Aryeh Jay said:
The Romans had a god just for orgies, Bacchus, how could it be ungodly?

Ungodly in relation to the Christian God. We don't believe he is Bacchus.

redblue22 · Feb 14, 2016

Even in their own sense of morality, the gods often fell and did wrong just as humans do.

William67 · Feb 14, 2016

Sketcher said:
Fornication and adultery (according to their Christian definitions) however, was rampant by the time the Empire was founded. Once Rome had conquered Greece, the damage to its culture had been done.

True, it was rampant. It was rampant during all of history, but, that doesn't mean we should abandon all laws regarding morality.

William67 · Feb 14, 2016

Aryeh Jay said:
The Romans had a god just for orgies, Bacchus, how could it be ungodly?

Oops! I see this is for singles! Sorry!

Bacchus was also the god of wine and spirits. Drunkenness is forbidden in Christianity.

William67 · Feb 14, 2016

redblue22 said:
Even in their own sense of morality, the gods often fell and did wrong just as humans do.

And that is why all the gods of the Romans, Greeks, etc were false gods and not the one true God.

William67 · Feb 14, 2016

redblue22 said:
I don't see that at all.

Well, "liberalism" dictates that it would only be fair for everyone if we removed all laws regarding sexual activity, of any kind.

redblue22 · Feb 14, 2016

William67 said:
Well, "liberalism" dictates that it would only be fair for everyone if we removed all laws regarding sexual activity, of any kind.

I haven't seen that with people who claim liberalism. Usually there is a stipulation about being an adult and consenting.

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