Does Archaeology prove the Histories found in the Bible?

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think it is interesting that there is a debate going as to whether that ossuary is actually old or not when that doesn't really matter. You're not going to find evidence that it is the same James as the brother of Jesus.

I recently heard about a documentary about the tomb of Jesus that they think they found in 1980. James Cameron of Titanic was actually on board for it. They found ossuaries inside for "Jesus son of Joseph", two Marys, Joseph, and a Matthew. One ossuary went missing that they tried to connect to the James ossuary as well. Turns out Mary is the most common female name of the time, and Jesus is a super common name of the time as well. Another ossuary of "Jesus son of Joseph" was found in 1930 and that wasn't the Jesus either. So who care's if it's old? There are a lot of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, James, etc... back then so it isn't unlikely at all there were a lot of sets of brothers named Jesus and James.


how many combinations are possible that put Jesus as the significant brother, and james as the secondary. And that have a father named Joseph.

simply put, very few.

say we get three common names, John, jeff, and mark.

and put john as the significant brother, and jeff as the lesser. and mark as the father. I suggest in america you may have a few hundred, to be very generous. And in jerusalem at that time, you may have one, perhaps two. But again that is generous because it's not the names that are significant, it's the correlations to the other two. And that makes it rare in my opinion. But if you can provide a list showing I am wrong, here, I will love to be open mined. But rationally speaking I believe my illustration is sufficient.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think the significance of this ossuary is the reference to the brother in addition to the father. This suggests a famous brother such as Jesus of the gospels. Josephus already mentioned "James the brother of Jesus" in Antiquities ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus ), but a few scholars have doubts about that mention. So if the James ossuary was genuine, then it would be additional evidence that James and his famous brother Jesus existed.

EDIT: Of course the authenticity of the James ossuary is controversial. Even though Galon was tried with the "innocent until proven guilty" methodology, we should treat artifacts with an unknown provenance as "guilty until proven innocent" IMO

I see you didn't reply to my last few posts from a few days ago, but yet used some of my sayings in reverse.

this is what we call in the debate threads, as dodging.

it is when someone has no answer for the allegations brought up, that they have what is called cognitive dissonance.

It's when they have two contradicting thoughts in the mind, this fear of reprisal or of getting found out, will cause them to dodge or to attack.

at least you didn't attack with ad hominem's, and decided to take the gentler route.

but a dodge is still not adressing the posts here.

and wishing they were gone, probably will not help either.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
This answered my question, thanks. I can respect that point.
I’ll add my 2 cents but, I will keep it casual.

Tower of Babel
A place where the ruins of Babil lay (this site is within the limits of ancient Babylon and concurs with the Biblical location of the tower).
A place where the ruins of Tell-Amram lay (this site is within the limits of ancient Babylon and concurs with the Biblical location of the tower).
We also have evidence that the top of the building was made to reach Heaven.
A place where the ruins of Birs-Nimrud lay (this site is not within the limits of ancient Babylon).
We also have to take in account the Sumerian tale with similar elements, Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta.

Adam and Eve
I don’t think based on the evidence that we can assume these two pieces are ‘Adam and Eve.’
The serpent (snake) has played important roles in several religions: ancient Egypt, Canaan, Mesopotamia (Sumer, Akkad, Babylonia, Assyria), etc.
The Epic of Gilgamesh should be discussed. Thus, we cannot assume it’s ‘Adam and Eve.’
We also cannot assume the male and female are ‘Adam and Eve.’
Now compare the ‘Temptation Seal’ to ‘Cain’s Royal Eagle-Serpent God’s Ruling Family Seal’ of Ur-Mesopotamia-Chaldea,’ the ‘Ur-Chaldean Egyptian Covenant Seals,’ and the ‘Aryan Hittite Covenant Seals.’
You’ll see similar seated couples in similar situations.
It’s not ‘Adam and Eve.’

The Ossuary of James
I haven’t done enough research on the subject so maybe I’ll revisit this later.


thank you for your honest debate and replies.

I do appreciate someone trying to actually research this.

I believe the tower of babel, pictured was a rebuild.

as it states in post one.

so it need not be directly on top of the old location, just by it.

secondly to say it's not adam and eve, is an absolute statement.

you would have to interview the person who molded and carved it to tell.

Chances are however because as I have said.

the biblical account, unlike gilgamesh is more complete, and there fore more authentic.

in other words it has more detail.

stories always end up getting twisted so naturally fairy tales that are copies of ancient jewish tales, does not bother me.

thirdly, can you find a story of a male and female, plucking fruit with a serpent being more successful with the female than with the male?

(I can)

It's in genesis.

If you can provide an exact story, from anything you mention above, then perhaps we can talk more about this.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Archaeology has sometimes substantiated historical material in the Bible, the most famous example being the existence of the Hittites. Archaeology has also sometimes called into question the historical material in the Bible. An example would be the seemingly complete absence of any evidence for the historical Exodus; such on its own doesn't mean there was no Exodus, but it does mean that as described in the Bible there's nothing really to substantiate it in the archaeological record.

So a broad appeal to archaeology isn't a particularly useful way of trying to substantiate the veracity of the biblical records. It can potentially come and bite one in the rear.

-CryptoLutheran

I think it is very useful.

when you believe something, to be able to go to another country and walk were those people walked, to eat the same vegetables, to swim in the same lakes and rivers. To gaze on the same hills, and sit under similiar trees....is it's own verification that perhaps this story has more to it that meets the eye.

In fact when reading through the Bible, on one of the three times I did so.....

I utilized a book that had archaological footnotes in it.

it's was called haley's bible handbook.

it brought great context to what I was reading. I also utilized manners and customs of Biblical times, books.

to know where levitical ceremony was done, the types of cloths they used, the towns they were in, the battles they lost and won, and the tribes they fought, and sometimes lost against.

all this is verifiable. It may not be verified, but it is verifiable.

and many times while archaologists say, that there is no evidence that a certain ruler existed, then pops up a shovel of dirt with this emperors insignia on it.

that really happened.

so when someone says something doesn't exist, it's easy to say.....

well alot of history isn't verified.

it's not science.

it's historical documentation.

and the Bible is so accurate that many ancient histories use it as a guide when doing excavations, and such.

so I am not worried about those who disagree.

to me, when there is a debate that is hotly debated, that means that there must be something important in the debate, otherwise they would not bother spending the time to refute it!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Who cares?

What if someday -- hypothetically -- we relocated to another planet?

No more fossil record to deny the Bible.

No more grave robbing to deny the Bible.

No more radiometric dating of the earth.

No more Grand Canyon to argue over whether or not the Jews lived in Egypt.

(Okay, I was being facetious with that one.)

All scientists have in the way of lies about the Bible is their SN1987A arguments.

What then?

Archaeology can take a hike.

Archaeologists, do take hikes, often for miles.

but I for one, and happy when we can add another city found from the Bible, or piece of pottery, or evidence of a tribe, or whatever.

to just say that, ALL science can take a hike, is wishfull thinking.

because God the author of the laws of physics would be on that hike!

lol
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The reason why there is a lot of doubt about the James Ossuary is that it lacks provenance, it was not found in situ. The owner had a forgery Workshop with bags of ancient dirt, half finished forgeries etc if the police are to be believed, and a confessed accomplice.

These facts taken into account would make the James ossuary of dubious value in saying anything as to the existence of Jesus.

again in debate, you can't do this.

you can't say because a guy is a fraud, that every thing he touches is a fraud.

hopefully you can see this.

(in fallacy terms it's called poisoning the well, or guilt by association)

you can't give guilt by someone associated with crime, you have to have evidence for the crime.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
EBLA tablets:

can anyone find a picture of these tablets?

I cannot find any so far, probably because there are many in this collection, to find one tablet -the creation tablet may be hard...

from a report done on this they have said this:

below quote from a free journal online here (found using google scholar)-
http://biblicalstudies.gospelstudies.org.uk/pdf/bsac/1983_302_merrill.pdf

"EBLA AND CREATION In a startling revelation going back to one of his earliest .. publications of Ebla material, 71 Pettinato suggested the presence of a creation epic among the archives and in a later article pointed out that "it contains irrefragable elements resembling the account of the creation of the earth and the solar light [found in Genesis]. The affinity with Genesis 1," he said, "appears evident."72 Finally he has published the text (TM. 75. G. 1682) which appears to be technically not an epic but a hymn. The relevant translated lines follow: 73 Lord of heaven and earth: the earth was not, you created it, the light of day was not, you created it, the morning light you had not [yet] made exist. Lord: effective word Lord: prosperity Lord: heroism Lord: Lord: untiring Lord: divinity Lord: who saves Lord: happy life Ebla and Biblical Historicallnerrancy 315 The full implications of this poem would require a separate lengthy article but at least a few observations can be made. First, the tenor of the hymn is almost monotheistic in spirit. Creation is attributed to only one god. Second, the order (heaven. earth, light, and morning) is identical to that in Genesis 1: 1-5. Third, the inference is that creation is ex nihilo, not the manufacture of things from an original and eternal primordial substance. Fourth, the epithet of the god as the "effective word" following the statement of his creative work is identical to the biblical concept of God who creates by the spoken word (Gen. 1:3) and who, in fact, is that Word Himself (John 1: 1-3)."

and in a previous post I posted regarding ebla, this:

I may shorten this in time, but for now it's really long sorry:

"below quote from Encylopedia of apologetics by Geisler, baker publishing.:

The recent discoveries of creation accounts at Ebla (see Ebla Tablets) add evidence of this. This library of sixteen thousand clay tablets predates the Babylonian account by about 600 years. The creation tablet is strikingly close to Genesis, speaking of one being who created the heavens, moon, stars, and earth. The people at Ebla believed in creation from nothing (see Creation, Views of). The Bible contains the ancient, less embellished version of the story and transmits the facts without the corruption of the mythological renderings.
The Flood of Noah. As with the creation accounts, the flood (see Flood, Noah’s) narrative in Genesis is more realistic and less mythological than other ancient versions, indicating its authenticity. The superficial similarities point toward an historical core of events that gave rise to all, not toward plagiarism by Moses. The names change. Noah is called Ziusudra by the Sumerians and Utnapishtim by the Babylonians. The basic story doesn’t. A man is told to build a ship to specific dimensions because God(s) are going to flood the world. He does it, rides out the storm, and offers sacrifice upon exiting the boat. The Deity(-ies) respond with remorse over the destruction of life, and make a covenant with the man. These core events point to a historical basis.
Similar flood accounts are found all over the world. The flood is told of by the Greeks, the Hindus, the Chinese, the Mexicans, the Algonquins, and the Hawaiians. One list of Sumerian kings treats the flood as an historical reference point. After naming eight kings who lived extraordinarily long lives (tens of thousands of years), this sentence interrupts the list: “[Then] the Flood swept over [the earth] and when kingship was lowered [again] from heaven, kingship was [first] in Kish.”
There are good reasons to believe that Genesis gives the original story. The other versions contain elaborations indicating corruption. Only in Genesis is the year of the flood given, as well as dates for the chronology relative to Noah’s life. In fact, Genesis reads almost like a diary or ship’s log of the events. The cubical Babylonian ship could not have saved anyone. The raging waters would have constantly turned it on every side. However, the biblical ark is rectangular—long, wide, and low—so that it would ride the rough seas well. The length of the rainfall in the pagan accounts (seven days) is not enough time for the devastation they describe. The waters would have to rise at least above most mountains, to a height of above 17,000 feet, and it is more reasonable to assume a longer rainfall to do this. The Babylonian idea that all of the flood waters subsided in one day is equally absurd. Another striking difference between Genesis and the other versions is that in these accounts the hero is granted immortality and exalted. The Bible moves on to Noah’s sin. Only a version that seeks to tell the truth would include this realistic admission.
Some have suggested that this was a severe but localized flood. However, there is geological evidence to support a worldwide flood. Partial skeletons of recent animals are found in deep fissures in several parts of the world and the flood seems to be the best explanation for these. This would explain how these fissures occur even in hills of considerable height, and they extend from 140 feet to 300 feet. Since no skeleton is complete, it is safe to conclude that none of these animals (mammoths, bears, wolves, oxen, hyenas, rhinoceros, aurochs, deer, and smaller mammals) fell into these fissures alive, nor were they rolled there by streams. Yet because of the calcite cementing of these diverse bones together, they must have been deposited under water. Such fissures have been discovered in various places around the world. This is exactly the kind of evidence that a brief but violent episode of this sort would be expected to show within the short span of one year.
The Tower of Babel. There is considerable evidence now that the world did indeed have a single language at one time. Sumerian literature alludes to this several times. Linguists also find this theory helpful in categorizing languages. But what of the tower and the confusion of tongues at the tower of Babel (Genesis 11)? Archaeology has revealed that Ur-Nammu, King of Ur from about 2044 to 2007 b.c., supposedly received orders to build a great ziggurat (temple tower) as an act of worship to the moon god Nannat. A stele (monument) about five feet across and ten feet high reveals Ur-Nammu’s activities. One panel has him setting out with a mortar basket to begin construction of the great tower, thus showing his allegiance to the gods by taking his place as a humble workman. Another clay tablet states that the erection of the tower offended the gods, so they threw down what the men had built, scattered them abroad, and made their speech strange. This is remarkably similar to the record in the Bible.
Conservative scholars believe Moses wrote these early chapters of Genesis (see Pentateuch, Mosaic Authorship of). But how could he, since these events occurred long before his birth? There are two possibilities. First, God could have revealed the accounts to Moses supernaturally. Just as God can reveal the future by prophetic revelation, he can reveal the past by retrospective revelation too. The second possibility is more likely, namely, that Moses compiled and edited earlier records of these events. This is not contrary to biblical practice. Luke did the same in his Gospel (Luke 1:1–4). P. J. Wiseman has argued convincingly that the history of Genesis was originally written on clay tablets and passed on from one generation to the next with each “clan leader” being responsible for keeping them edited and up to date. The main clue that Wiseman found to this in the Bible is the periodic repetition of words and phrases, especially the phrase “This is the generation of” (for example, Gen. 2:4; 6:9; 10:1; 11:10). Many ancient tablets were kept in order by making the first words of a new tablet a repetition of the last words of the previous stone. A literary evaluation of Genesis compared to other ancient literature indicates that it was compiled no later than the time of Moses. It is quite possible that Genesis is a family history recorded by the patriarchs and edited into its final form by Moses.
The Patriarchs. While the narratives of the lives of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob do not present the same kinds of difficulties as do the earlier chapters of Genesis, they were long considered legendary because they did not seem to fit with the known evidence of that period. As more has become known though, these stories are increasingly verified. Legal codes from the time of Abraham show why the patriarch would have been hesitant to throw Hagar out of his camp, for he was legally bound to support her. Only when a higher law came from God was Abraham willing to put her out.
The Mari letters reveal such names as Abam-ram (Abraham), Jacob-el, and Benjamites. Though these do not refer to the biblical people, they at least show that the names were in use. These letters also support the record of a war in Genesis 14 where five kings fought against four kings. The names of these kings seem to fit with the prominent nations of the day. For example, Genesis 14:1 mentions an Amorite king Arioch; the Mari documents render the king’s name Ariwwuk. All of this evidence leads to the conclusion that the source material of Genesis was first-hand accounts of someone who lived during Abraham’s time.
Sodom and Gomorrah. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was thought to be spurious until evidence revealed that all five of the cities mentioned in the Bible were in fact centers of commerce in the area and were geographically situated as the Scriptures say. The biblical description of their demise seems to be no less accurate. Evidence points to earthquake activity, and that the various layers of the earth were disrupted and hurled high into the air. Bitumen is plentiful there, and an accurate description would be that brimstone (bituminous pitch) was hurled down on those cities that had rejected God. There is evidence that the layers of sedimentary rock have been molded together by intense heat. Evidence of such burning has been found on the top of Jebel Usdum (Mount Sodom). This is permanent evidence of the great conflagration that took place in the long-distant past, possibly when an oil basin beneath the Dead Sea ignited and erupted. Such an explanation in no way subtracts from the miraculous quality of the event, for God controls natural forces. The timing of the event, in the context of warnings and visitation by angels, reveals its overall miraculous nature.
The Dating of the Exodus. One of the several issues about Israel’s relationship with Egypt is when the Exodus into Palestine occurred (see Pentateuch, Mosaic Authorship of; Pharaoh of the Exodus). There is even an official “Generally Accepted Date” (GAD) for the entrance into Canaan of about 1230–1220 b.c. The Scriptures, on the other hand, teach in three different texts (1 Kings 6:1; Judg. 11:26; Acts 13:19–20) that the Exodus occurred in the 1400s b.c., with the entrance into Canaan forty years later. While the debate will rage on, there is no longer any reason to accept the 1200 date.
Assumptions have been made that the city “Rameses” in Exodus 1:11 was named after Rameses the Great, that there were no building projects in the Nile Delta before 1300, and that there was no great civilization in Canaan from the nineteenth to the thirteenth centuries. However, the name Rameses is common in Egyptian history. Rameses the Great is Ramses II. Nothing is known about Rameses I. Also, the name might not refer to a city but to an area. In Genesis 47:11, the name Rameses describes the Nile Delta area where Jacob and his sons settled.
Some scholars now suggest that reinterpretation of the data requires moving the date of the Middle Bronze (MB) age. If this is done, it would show that several uncovered cities of Canaan were destroyed by the Israelites. Evidence has come from recent digs that the last phase of the MB period needs more time than originally thought, so that its end is closer to 1400 b.c. than 1550 b.c. This realignment would bring together two events previously thought to be separated by centuries: the fall of Canaan’s MB II cities and the conquest.

In fact, while thousands of finds from the ancient world support in broad outline and often in detail the biblical picture, not one incontrovertible find has ever contradicted the Bible.

Geisler, Norman L.: Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics. Grand Rapids, Mich. : Baker Books, 1999 (Baker Reference Library), S. 49
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,458
26,890
Pacific Northwest
✟732,295.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I think it is very useful.

when you believe something, to be able to go to another country and walk were those people walked, to eat the same vegetables, to swim in the same lakes and rivers. To gaze on the same hills, and sit under similiar trees....is it's own verification that perhaps this story has more to it that meets the eye.

In fact when reading through the Bible, on one of the three times I did so.....

I utilized a book that had archaological footnotes in it.

it's was called haley's bible handbook.

it brought great context to what I was reading. I also utilized manners and customs of Biblical times, books.

to know where levitical ceremony was done, the types of cloths they used, the towns they were in, the battles they lost and won, and the tribes they fought, and sometimes lost against.

all this is verifiable. It may not be verified, but it is verifiable.

and many times while archaologists say, that there is no evidence that a certain ruler existed, then pops up a shovel of dirt with this emperors insignia on it.

that really happened.

so when someone says something doesn't exist, it's easy to say.....

well alot of history isn't verified.

it's not science.

it's historical documentation.

and the Bible is so accurate that many ancient histories use it as a guide when doing excavations, and such.

so I am not worried about those who disagree.

to me, when there is a debate that is hotly debated, that means that there must be something important in the debate, otherwise they would not bother spending the time to refute it!

The point is that the Bible is not first and foremost a history book. The Bible is--while I disagree with generally calling it a book at all, but if we are to call it such--a book of faith. It is the collection and recollection of the people of God in their struggle with God that, from a Christian perspective, culminates in the coming of Jesus the Christ, the Word made flesh.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wgw
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
This answered my question, thanks. I can respect that point.

well to me, if God came down a proved himself, then there would be no way to prove an intellectual commitment to Him, because He did it.

in this way we can.

Faith involves hope, if you have faith in someone you hope in them.

if God proved himself absolutely, then yes, we would all believe in Him, but we would not have the same level of hope.

like when you say to a child, "I believe in you."

you base your belief on facts yes, but even more important you have hope that they will turn out okay.

and you trust in that hope,

it's the same with God.

facts help guide us to him, but we hope in Him, and in Hope we also have faith.

archaology doesn't prove God, what it does is lay the groundwork for the historicity of the Bible, if said finding are authentic, and we interpret them correctly.
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
@gradyll , I'm not dodging your arguments. You see this as a debate, and I see it as a discussion. I know things that you do not know. You know things that I do not know. Others know other things. We all have an interest in archaeology and the Bible stories, so we should share what we know.

I can understand how you might feel that threads in the apologetics forum should be formal debates between those who are pro-Christian and anti-Christian. However, if you want a formal debate, then you need a more clearly defined proposition. When I read your OP, I assumed you wanted a friendly discussion of archaeology and the Bible.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

peepnklown

rabbi peepnklown
Jun 17, 2005
4,834
222
California
Visit site
✟23,364.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
Thank you for your honest debate and replies. I do appreciate someone trying to actually research this.

When it comes to the Tower of Babel I wanted to add more information.
The site you believe is the original site is one of three possible sites (Well, at least the three main possible sites).
They all have their pros and cons.
The interesting con against the Birs-Nimrud site is that it’s not within the limits of ancient Babylon which the Biblical account implies.
The interesting pro for the place where the ruins of Tell-Amram lay is that it has documentary testimony that the top of the building had been made to reach Heaven.
Maybe the tale of Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta (Sumer) could help in pin pointing the location.



When it comes to Adam and Eve, I will change my statement to its most likely not Adam and Eve.
If you compare the ‘Temptation Seal’ to the seals I listed you will see similar seated couples in similar situations in similar placement.
They all have nothing to do with Adam and Eve.
Also, what verse tells of Adam wearing a head piece with horns?
Yet, we see themes in ancient Mesopotamian religions.
Also, assuming they are ‘plucking’ is a stretch since the male and female figure are not holding anything nor removing anything.
The serpent (snake) played important roles in religions far older than the Adam and Eve tale.
Especially in fertility (female)!
Thus, again I will change my statement; it’s most likely not Adam and Eve.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cloudyday2
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
@gradyll , I'm not dodging your arguments. You see this as a debate, and I see it as a discussion. I know things that you do not know. You know things that I do not know. Others know other things. We all have an interest in archaeology and the Bible stories, so we should share what we know.

I can understand how you might feel that threads in the apologetics forum should be formal debates between those who are pro-Christian and anti-Christian. However, if you want a formal debate, then you need a more clearly defined proposition. When I read your OP, I assumed you wanted a friendly discussion of archaeology and the Bible.

debates are unemotional, and dry.

if your not for it.

that's okay too.

But you are welcome to share your perspectives as usual, but please use facts to the best of your ability.

you do have a tendency to sensationalize, without any ground in evidence.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cloudyday2
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Here are few more thoughts on the Temptation Seal

Here is an image of the Temptation Seal that is easier to see. I can't see beards on either figure, but beards were not stylish until the Akkadian period and later. Before that time, shaving was the norm like Egypt.

The figure on the right is obviously a god or demigod or a king claiming to be a demigod (due to the horns). Bulls are male, so probably it is safe to assume the figure on the right is male.

Is the figure on the left male or female? He/she seems to be wearing a head covering. It reminds me of the hats worn in renaissance times or maybe the hats that Arabs wear today. I've include an image of the Emperor Hammurabi. Notice that Hammurabi's hat is not too different from the hat worn by the figure on the left. So I think the figure on the left is a king.

The tree is interesting because it has seven branches. Seven was a number symbolizing divinity in the Bible. Also notice there are two fruits at the bottom. Maybe instead of two trees, this story had two fruits - the fruit of morality and the fruit of life. Or maybe the fruits are good and evil.

So if the Temptation Seal is connected to the Garden of Eden story, then I think this depicts God (on the right) talking to Adam (on the left). God is probably telling Adam not to eat from this tree.

90821f2dbe678f56a12cf0fc362a6c6b.jpg


Here is the image of Hammurabi's hat. Hammurabi is the figure on the left and the figure on the right is a god that Hammurabi is praying to (Shamash the god of justice).
dioriet-stella-hammurabi-E.jpeg
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,851,138
51,515
Guam
✟4,910,135.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
to just say that, ALL science can take a hike, is wishfull thinking.

because God the author of the laws of physics would be on that hike!

lol
Hmmm ... good point! :oldthumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Here are few more thoughts on the Temptation Seal

Here is an image of the Temptation Seal that is easier to see. I can't see beards on either figure, but beards were not stylish until the Akkadian period and later. Before that time, shaving was the norm like Egypt.

The figure on the right is obviously a god or demigod or a king claiming to be a demigod (due to the horns). Bulls are male, so probably it is safe to assume the figure on the right is male.

Is the figure on the left male or female? He/she seems to be wearing a head covering. It reminds me of the hats worn in renaissance times or maybe the hats that Arabs wear today. I've include an image of the Emperor Hammurabi. Notice that Hammurabi's hat is not too different from the hat worn by the figure on the left. So I think the figure on the left is a king.

The tree is interesting because it has seven branches. Seven was a number symbolizing divinity in the Bible. Also notice there are two fruits at the bottom. Maybe instead of two trees, this story had two fruits - the fruit of morality and the fruit of life. Or maybe the fruits are good and evil.

So if the Temptation Seal is connected to the Garden of Eden story, then I think this depicts God (on the right) talking to Adam (on the left). God is probably telling Adam not to eat from this tree.

90821f2dbe678f56a12cf0fc362a6c6b.jpg


Here is the image of Hammurabi's hat. Hammurabi is the figure on the left and the figure on the right is a god that Hammurabi is praying to (Shamash the god of justice).
dioriet-stella-hammurabi-E.jpeg

The temptation seal, does have a male on the right and a woman on the left, mainly due to body size. The one on the right, a manly figure, and the left a petite womanly figure, but not to be confused with childish.

this alone I believe is one major reason why there is a woman and a man.

so this puts your case to rest here.

if it is true that there is a woman on the left and a God on the right, what possibly would be the implication?

that sepent liked woman, loves to worship at the tree scene with a God of horns?

I mean really,

the scene makes absolute gibberish if this is not in fact a garden of eden scene.

in biblical hermeneutics we have a concept, it's called the Golden rule of interpretation. I am sure science has a similiar law or rule, but I don't recall it.

but this rule is this:

"if the plain sense, makes sense, seek no other sense."
or something like that

more info here:
http://www.biblicalresearch.info/page55.html

most who look at the picture instantly say, AH adam and eve.

because again you have three similiarities that are in the same sequence.

say you had a code of three digits, then that means to have the right sequence you would need 999 different possibilites.

in this case of infinite possibilities,

you have a woman

a male like figure in the scene

a tree

a serpent

and a combination of the above, a woman with serpent, a man and woman with tree and serpent, and you have a man away from serpent

there is no close second.

what I mean is that there is obviously no other story to relate this too, other than gibberish.

and most people who see it, would indicate like I said....adam and eve.

it takes an athiest professor to come along and say, ah no, this is a wedding fiest.

you know, the one that involves the serpent of argument, as every wedding has arguments,

and you have a tree of fertility, because every wedding has that.

and the horned guy on the right, well, all I can say is it's manly.

and the feminish woman on the left, it's a bride.



that sounds odd and somewhat disturbing.

because it's obvously wrong.

but again, an professor, that may lose his job if he mentions adam and eve in a proper context in a university class room, will come up with all sorts of crazy things as to the interpretation of things,

believe me, I have been there.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The point is that the Bible is not first and foremost a history book. The Bible is--while I disagree with generally calling it a book at all, but if we are to call it such--a book of faith. It is the collection and recollection of the people of God in their struggle with God that, from a Christian perspective, culminates in the coming of Jesus the Christ, the Word made flesh.

-CryptoLutheran

do the pictures of archaological things, end up being, just a figment of my imagination, an extension of my faith?

or do they exist.

and if they exist as said in scripture, for example the tower of babylon a structure similiar to one in a biblical story,

is that faith, or is it fact?

"The Tower of Babel. There is considerable evidence now that the world did indeed have a single language at one time. Sumerian literature alludes to this several times. Linguists also find this theory helpful in categorizing languages. But what of the tower and the confusion of tongues at the tower of Babel (Genesis 11)? Archaeology has revealed that Ur-Nammu, King of Ur from about 2044 to 2007 b.c., supposedly received orders to build a great ziggurat (temple tower) as an act of worship to the moon god Nannat. A stele (monument) about five feet across and ten feet high reveals Ur-Nammu’s activities. One panel has him setting out with a mortar basket to begin construction of the great tower, thus showing his allegiance to the gods by taking his place as a humble workman. Another clay tablet states that the erection of the tower offended the gods, so they threw down what the men had built, scattered them abroad, and made their speech strange. This is remarkably similar to the record in the Bible.
Conservative scholars believe Moses wrote these early chapters of Genesis (see Pentateuch, Mosaic Authorship of). But how could he, since these events occurred long before his birth? There are two possibilities. First, God could have revealed the accounts to Moses supernaturally. Just as God can reveal the future by prophetic revelation, he can reveal the past by retrospective revelation too. The second possibility is more likely, namely, that Moses compiled and edited earlier records of these events. This is not contrary to biblical practice. Luke did the same in his Gospel (Luke 1:1–4). P. J. Wiseman has argued convincingly that the history of Genesis was originally written on clay tablets and passed on from one generation to the next with each “clan leader” being responsible for keeping them edited and up to date. The main clue that Wiseman found to this in the Bible is the periodic repetition of words and phrases, especially the phrase “This is the generation of” (for example, Gen. 2:4; 6:9; 10:1; 11:10). Many ancient tablets were kept in order by making the first words of a new tablet a repetition of the last words of the previous stone. A literary evaluation of Genesis compared to other ancient literature indicates that it was compiled no later than the time of Moses. It is quite possible that Genesis is a family history recorded by the patriarchs and edited into its final form by Moses."

above quote from
Geisler, Norman L.: Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics. Grand Rapids, Mich. : Baker Books, 1999 (Baker Reference Library), S. 49
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
one of the forum users contacted me and told me about a movie on exodus found on netflix, it's actually very fascinating and I highly recommend it.

I stopped shy of a half hour into it to document a site, I included a snapshot of an avaris site, it has a town comprised of ancient hebrews, or similiar group.

one palace in the town had a pyramid tomb on it, with eleven other non pyramid tomb graves.

(jacobs twelve sons?)

Joseph was not a king, but had a kings burial.

there was a statue that I will post,

it has light skin, and red hair (I guess that is how northerners were portrayed) which would make sense for this town.

very little is known, probably because of the Biblical implications and the censorship that happens on histories found in the Bible

there is apparently stripes on his gown like garmet (some saying this maybe a coat of many colors)

but the main facts are an egyptian tomb in this area, and on a statemans property, not a kings palace, that is highly unusual.

also the fact that 1 twelve of the graves was honored with a kings buriel.

highly indicative of the story of joseph and his brothers.

I suggest seeing the documentary, it's called "patterns of evidence-exodus" on netflix right now it was made in 2014. avaris site is alluded to in beginning of film but also gone into in depth about 25 minutes to 30 minutes into it.

site%20of%20avaris-pyramid%20tomb-northerner_zpsooscnmd7.jpg
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
@gradyll , I'm not dodging your arguments. You see this as a debate, and I see it as a discussion. I know things that you do not know. You know things that I do not know. Others know other things. We all have an interest in archaeology and the Bible stories, so we should share what we know.

I can understand how you might feel that threads in the apologetics forum should be formal debates between those who are pro-Christian and anti-Christian. However, if you want a formal debate, then you need a more clearly defined proposition. When I read your OP, I assumed you wanted a friendly discussion of archaeology and the Bible.

you are dodging my arguments in this way....

you don't reply to them, and as your rebuttal post some article of LA times or wikipedia, essentially commiting the fallacy of appeal to authority, or appeal to populus.

when those sources as I have already shown are bogus. At least to the point of not being scientific enough for a scientific talk.

I call it debate, but you call it talk....

either way is fine.

if we use science, and facts.

not news agencies, which have a tendancy for focusing on the negative, for shock value to increase their bottom line in news revenue.

believe me, I used to know many many people at our local news....

it's not a valid source for info. When was the last time you saw a full newpaper focus totally on good things?

or a news channel, when did you see an episode that focused rather on the good things in society not the negative things that give shock value?

they pick sides on which type of news to allow, and this by definition is biased and not scientific.

it means for us here, that they will tend to sensationalize to twist the story in a negative light, to make people mad, so they read more of there news.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The point is that the Bible is not first and foremost a history book. The Bible is--while I disagree with generally calling it a book at all, but if we are to call it such--a book of faith. It is the collection and recollection of the people of God in their struggle with God that, from a Christian perspective, culminates in the coming of Jesus the Christ, the Word made flesh.

-CryptoLutheran

I will be taking a break from CF for spiritual reasons, to simplify from technology, as a spiritual fast, and as a streamlining of priorities.

please take care, I am sure there are others more than able to answer any or all of your questions.

ttyl
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Davian

fallible
May 30, 2011
14,100
1,181
West Coast of Canada
✟38,603.00
Faith
Ignostic
Marital Status
Married
The point is that the Bible is not first and foremost a history book. The Bible is--while I disagree with generally calling it a book at all, but if we are to call it such--a book of faith. It is the collection and recollection of the people of God in their struggle with God that, from a Christian perspective, culminates in the coming of Jesus the Christ, the Word made flesh.

-CryptoLutheran
From the Smithsonian:

http://www.csnradio.com/tema/links/SmithsonianLetter.pdf

‘It must be remembered that the Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. It was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind. …

‘In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.’
 
Upvote 0