The Mystery of Pauls Writings
- Thread starter Lulav
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I think you have come to the understanding of why Paul's letters are in the Bible.
When we have a Torah foundation we can better understand what is written in the NT as well as why.
for the L-RD your God is testing you to find out if you love the L-RD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4"You shall follow the L-RD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.…
I believe that is why Paul cried out here in Romans, the part written to the Jews (who would know Torah and would understand this ) that sounds convoluted, but if read in the context of the quote from Deut above, it becomes clearer.
14-20 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
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Pentateuch and Yeshua
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I know exactly why they are in the bible, the key to knowing why, is knowing who compiled it 
What is more interesting to think about is, why are certain writings not in ... I can't say "the bible" but in most bibles... But were preserved in other bibles and the dead sea scrolls... Some really amazing history was cut from the... Sorry, from many bibles.
What is more interesting to think about is, why are certain writings not in ... I can't say "the bible" but in most bibles... But were preserved in other bibles and the dead sea scrolls... Some really amazing history was cut from the... Sorry, from many bibles.
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Pentateuch and Yeshua
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The book of wars is mentioned either in the torah or tanakh (I forget which) so how can that be considered false?
The book of Jasher is mentioned as though it were well known and factual, and actually cited as a source in the book of Joshua, so how can it be false?
The book of Enoch contains nothing contrary to torah that I'm aware of, and IF you accept the entire NIV/KJV canon, you have to accept that it has two witnesses (Jude and whoever wrote the letter named 1 Peter).
If, however, you accept and reject books based on whether or not they teach anything contrary to Torah, then we are both agreed that much of the NT should be cut, lol, so either way your argument supports mine
The book of Jasher is mentioned as though it were well known and factual, and actually cited as a source in the book of Joshua, so how can it be false?
The book of Enoch contains nothing contrary to torah that I'm aware of, and IF you accept the entire NIV/KJV canon, you have to accept that it has two witnesses (Jude and whoever wrote the letter named 1 Peter).
If, however, you accept and reject books based on whether or not they teach anything contrary to Torah, then we are both agreed that much of the NT should be cut, lol, so either way your argument supports mine
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daq
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The book of wars is mentioned either in the torah or tanakh (I forget which) so how can that be considered false?
The book of Jasher is mentioned as though it were well known and factual, and actually cited as a source in the book of Joshua, so how can it be false?
The book of Enoch contains nothing contrary to torah that I'm aware of, and IF you accept the entire NIV/KJV canon, you have to accept that it has two witnesses (Jude and whoever wrote the letter named 1 Peter).
If, however, you accept and reject books based on whether or not they teach anything contrary to Torah, then we are both agreed that much of the NT should be cut, lol, so either way your argument supports mine
Hmmm, do you mean Numbers 21:14 when you say "the book of wars"? That actually does not appear to be the full title of that "book", (if indeed that is how the statement is meant, that is, in the sense of a literal "book"). It seems more like the full statement should read, "the sefer of the wars of HaShem", but what do I know?
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Pentateuch and Yeshua
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This book, at least in part, has survived. I have acquired a copy of all that remains of it as part of a complete collection of the English translations of the DSS. I am really amped to read it.
This should never become a gnostic issue, regardless, since knowing more doesn't make us better, the goal has never been to know more, that is the false goal post that the enemy has placed in our path since eden, if a book is mentioned in or appears to be part of scripture, it's excellent to read it. If anything, when read exactly as a child would read it (prima facea) it appears to contradict the torah in any way, at all, and this is a meaning issue and not a translation issue, then it should be binned. Any argument based on misunderstanding and needing to understand this and that and the other and all this stuff related to mysteries, secret or elusive knowledge, limited understandings etc makes it all gnostic, and gnosticism is the root of the original false/mystery religions (torah-less religions came later, early false religions were based on gnostic variations of torah, often teaching that the serpent was the good god that imparted knowledge in violation of the slave driver god, and that the fallen angels were his sons and our gods that he set over us to aid us in our learning, the book of Enoch is very instrumental in refuting this rubbish for those who carry on these false teachings today). A lot of "messianic" defence of their positions tend to be based on a form of gnosticism, the mystery of Paul's teachings as a thread in a messianic section of a christian forum that claims that 99% of people misunderstand Paul is definitely a pinnacle of this if I'm correct on this matter, but what would I know? I'm only a Jew who hangs on the simple words of the messiah himself
This should never become a gnostic issue, regardless, since knowing more doesn't make us better, the goal has never been to know more, that is the false goal post that the enemy has placed in our path since eden, if a book is mentioned in or appears to be part of scripture, it's excellent to read it. If anything, when read exactly as a child would read it (prima facea) it appears to contradict the torah in any way, at all, and this is a meaning issue and not a translation issue, then it should be binned. Any argument based on misunderstanding and needing to understand this and that and the other and all this stuff related to mysteries, secret or elusive knowledge, limited understandings etc makes it all gnostic, and gnosticism is the root of the original false/mystery religions (torah-less religions came later, early false religions were based on gnostic variations of torah, often teaching that the serpent was the good god that imparted knowledge in violation of the slave driver god, and that the fallen angels were his sons and our gods that he set over us to aid us in our learning, the book of Enoch is very instrumental in refuting this rubbish for those who carry on these false teachings today). A lot of "messianic" defence of their positions tend to be based on a form of gnosticism, the mystery of Paul's teachings as a thread in a messianic section of a christian forum that claims that 99% of people misunderstand Paul is definitely a pinnacle of this if I'm correct on this matter, but what would I know? I'm only a Jew who hangs on the simple words of the messiah himself
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Pentateuch and Yeshua
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BTW - I don't know whether posting links to things like this is permitted (@Lulav and co, please forgive me if it's not allowed), but this book is amazing in terms of offering a complete guide to all things apocryphal from the early days of the Torah/Tanakh, as well as later texts (there's a missing Job passage that speaks of actual/literal fire breathing dragons! I truly believe they existed pre and for a short while, post flood, as what we call dinosaurs, and biologically, it's not hard to imagine mechanisms for which it can be possible to breathe fire naturally!), as it contains a lot of DSS writings from the Qumran caves, amazing stuff!
Please wait until after the shabbat before purchasing though
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0141197315?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00
Please wait until after the shabbat before purchasing though
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0141197315?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00
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pat34lee
Messianic
There are several books mentioned in the Tanakh that
are no longer around. Jasher and Enoch may bear the
same names as two known books, but neither are known
to be the original books. More likely, they are fictional
accounts based on stories passed down about the originals.
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Pentateuch and Yeshua
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There is a case for maintaining that they are at least faithful to the originals, although you would be correct in asserting that we cannot categorically state or prove beyond doubt that they are the originals.
The case for maintaining that the Book of Enoch in circulation is accurate is that we have two separate sources of the text, one which comes from the Ethiopic Bible, preserved since before the Vatican cut it from canon during the council in the fourth century, and the fact that there are at least two canonical quotes from the book in the NT.
I don't know whether the book of Jasher is contained in the Ethiopic bible, but it was found with a supportable version of the book of Enoch and it doesn't contain anything contradictory that I'm aware of, so we can have as much faith in the accuracy of the book as we can many other historical and/or biblical texts. I don't believe there is a case for claiming that they are false, only a case for doubt as to their authenticity but I think, based on the case presented (and the wealth of evidence, if you search hard enough, that there possibly were giants and there possibly were fallen angels or "gods" or "aliens" controlling men and genetically mixing animals at some point in history as the books claim), we can safely say that there is no harm in accepting them to be the same books as are referred to in the Tanakh, and if those, plus the accurately preserved Torah and Tanakh (minus Esther) contained within the DSS demonstrate that the people who compiled the DSS can be considered ta reliable witness, then the rest of the contents can be considered to be the authentic versions of the scriptures.
Logically, when the people hid them away, they were hiding the scriptures they had, in order to preserve them through the purges, and so the writings were well known at the time, well enough for two NT authors to quote one of them, so, there would have been no reason for there to be false variations circulating at the time. It's unlikely that I would write a fake version of the first Harry Potter book today, and then for people to decide to destroy every Harry Potter book ever made, and in my haste to preserve the books, I rescue my fake version that at the time would have been easily recognisable as a fake, as people would be familiar with the original, so there would be absolutely no reason for false versions to exist among legitimate 2000 year old scripture.
Would you agree with this assertion?
The case for maintaining that the Book of Enoch in circulation is accurate is that we have two separate sources of the text, one which comes from the Ethiopic Bible, preserved since before the Vatican cut it from canon during the council in the fourth century, and the fact that there are at least two canonical quotes from the book in the NT.
I don't know whether the book of Jasher is contained in the Ethiopic bible, but it was found with a supportable version of the book of Enoch and it doesn't contain anything contradictory that I'm aware of, so we can have as much faith in the accuracy of the book as we can many other historical and/or biblical texts. I don't believe there is a case for claiming that they are false, only a case for doubt as to their authenticity but I think, based on the case presented (and the wealth of evidence, if you search hard enough, that there possibly were giants and there possibly were fallen angels or "gods" or "aliens" controlling men and genetically mixing animals at some point in history as the books claim), we can safely say that there is no harm in accepting them to be the same books as are referred to in the Tanakh, and if those, plus the accurately preserved Torah and Tanakh (minus Esther) contained within the DSS demonstrate that the people who compiled the DSS can be considered ta reliable witness, then the rest of the contents can be considered to be the authentic versions of the scriptures.
Logically, when the people hid them away, they were hiding the scriptures they had, in order to preserve them through the purges, and so the writings were well known at the time, well enough for two NT authors to quote one of them, so, there would have been no reason for there to be false variations circulating at the time. It's unlikely that I would write a fake version of the first Harry Potter book today, and then for people to decide to destroy every Harry Potter book ever made, and in my haste to preserve the books, I rescue my fake version that at the time would have been easily recognisable as a fake, as people would be familiar with the original, so there would be absolutely no reason for false versions to exist among legitimate 2000 year old scripture.
Would you agree with this assertion?
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I've got this on my "to read" list ,you might be interested.
Genesis and the Synchronized, Biblically Endorsed, Extra-Biblical Texts Rob Skiba
36 Customer Reviews
Description
Released: Apr 8, 2015. Large file size: 12.5 MB. Requires Wi-Fi for delivery
This book contains an introduction by Rob Skiba, followed by an example of how Genesis, 1 Enoch, Jasher and Jubilees can by synchronized to tell a very detailed story concerning "The Genesis Six Experiment." Following that section is a side-by-side comparison of the Brenton's Septuagint with King James Version of the book of Genesis. Finally, the remaining sections contain the complete works of 1 Enoch, Jasher and Jubilees. With all of this in one volume, the reader is sure to find this book a valuable resource for serious study and in-depth research.
You can read a 2 hour long sample at Amazon.
Genesis and the Synchronized, Biblically Endorsed, Extra-Biblical Texts Rob Skiba
36 Customer Reviews
Description
Released: Apr 8, 2015. Large file size: 12.5 MB. Requires Wi-Fi for delivery
This book contains an introduction by Rob Skiba, followed by an example of how Genesis, 1 Enoch, Jasher and Jubilees can by synchronized to tell a very detailed story concerning "The Genesis Six Experiment." Following that section is a side-by-side comparison of the Brenton's Septuagint with King James Version of the book of Genesis. Finally, the remaining sections contain the complete works of 1 Enoch, Jasher and Jubilees. With all of this in one volume, the reader is sure to find this book a valuable resource for serious study and in-depth research.
You can read a 2 hour long sample at Amazon.
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Pentateuch and Yeshua
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Rob and I used to be friends before he went down the Flat Earther path. I like his videos relating to the Nephilim and the DSS books/Gen 6:4. I think the phrase "standing on the shoulders of giants" has taken on new meaning here, but my (as yet incomplete) book and future video series owes a huge debt to Rob and his work. I haven't actually read his books though
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Pentateuch and Yeshua
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I recommend his YT videos on these books and the nephilim topics, but avoid, PLEASE avoid anything where he goes into the Earth being flat, seriously... The dude lost it at some point lol. I love the guy, but, damn! I'm stupid because I don't accept that the bible is a flat Earther book because he thinks that the word circle of the earth is different to saying the ball of the earth therefore the bible says the earth is flat... No it doesn't, lol xD
But yeah, I was addicted to his previous videos, I would watch them until 5am and I couldn't keep my bloodshot eyes open any more. also try to ignore any video he has with "Yahuah" in the title, I can't stand sacred namer agenda stuff either.
One thing that I'm becoming more and more aware of though is that too much conspiracy theory and too many "teachings" on occult symbols, occult rituals and demonic stuff is being presented in such videos... Our focus is supposed to be on what's good to do and obeying Torah, not on avoiding what's bad according to the internet. I try to avoid such things in my writing unless it directly relates to passages I'm commenting on that benefit from a deeper explanation, as I hate bringing the focus onto demons, idols, symbols, masons etc, as I think focusing on them is a form of distraction at the very least, and possibly on some level even a form of fear-based or focus-based idolatry, all we need to know about it really is in the scriptures, including the DSS texts which aren't great for basing theology upon but are good for giving us an idea of what the texts were trying to convey (gen 6:4, and passages in Matthew relating to the days of Noah, especially - a lot of references clarified in the DSS books such as Enoch relating to technology, UFO/sky-descended beings and genetic engineering can ONLY be understood today, since the time they were rediscovered, and they claim to be written for a remote generation from the time of the flood, so I tend to believe that they genuinely contain info we should access rather than all these occult symbol conspiracy videos that fill our heads with fear of triangles and eyes).
But yeah, I was addicted to his previous videos, I would watch them until 5am and I couldn't keep my bloodshot eyes open any more. also try to ignore any video he has with "Yahuah" in the title, I can't stand sacred namer agenda stuff either.
One thing that I'm becoming more and more aware of though is that too much conspiracy theory and too many "teachings" on occult symbols, occult rituals and demonic stuff is being presented in such videos... Our focus is supposed to be on what's good to do and obeying Torah, not on avoiding what's bad according to the internet. I try to avoid such things in my writing unless it directly relates to passages I'm commenting on that benefit from a deeper explanation, as I hate bringing the focus onto demons, idols, symbols, masons etc, as I think focusing on them is a form of distraction at the very least, and possibly on some level even a form of fear-based or focus-based idolatry, all we need to know about it really is in the scriptures, including the DSS texts which aren't great for basing theology upon but are good for giving us an idea of what the texts were trying to convey (gen 6:4, and passages in Matthew relating to the days of Noah, especially - a lot of references clarified in the DSS books such as Enoch relating to technology, UFO/sky-descended beings and genetic engineering can ONLY be understood today, since the time they were rediscovered, and they claim to be written for a remote generation from the time of the flood, so I tend to believe that they genuinely contain info we should access rather than all these occult symbol conspiracy videos that fill our heads with fear of triangles and eyes).
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I beg to disagree. The Bible does present a flat earth and a geocentric cosmology. That was very common in the ancient world. You might try reading sometime 'Earth Not A Globe," a major 19-centry defense of the flat earth, based extensively on Scripture.
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Pentateuch and Yeshua
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Geocentrism =/= flat earth. Yes, the bible is a geocentric book and the objective scientific method supports the notion far more than you'd think.
I refer you to an acquaintance of mine, Dr. Phillip Stott.
I refer you to an acquaintance of mine, Dr. Phillip Stott.
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I am interested in talking to you, not Stott. I tell that to any and all here who simply blow off responding and dump it on you to go look at some source online. Again, I'm not talking to him, but you. I want to hear your case. I sense you find he is going to present some sort of argument that the Bible had a spherical earth, etc. If so, been there, done that. If I had a nickel for everything I had to listen to those bogus arguments...
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Does that mean all planets, stars, suns are also flat?
Does that mean that people have been on the edge of the earth and seen the drop off?
Does that mean that there is no way to circle the earth by ship or plane?
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Extraneous
Well-Known Member
The bible doesnt say that the earth is flat. The language in the bible is a holy spiritual language that talks of mysteries, but its not a science book. It never intended to suggest that world was flat. If we took the same language that people use to say the world was considered flat in old times, (flat according to scripture), then we would need to also say God reached out of heaven with is hand and formed the earth. We know the bible didn't actually mean his hand did it though, because he also says that his spoke and it was created. This flat earth thing is wrong. The bible doesn't say the earth is flat. Its a spiritual language that has hidden mysteries in it. Thats why its written in the form that it is.
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