LDS BOM explains salvation better than the Bible?

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ToBeLoved said:

What anyone should be doing is preaching the Word of God. That person who is 'saved' as you put it, is saved by Jesus Christ, not a preacher.

Someone brings someone else to Christ. It is then Christ who writes His Word on their hearts, gives them the indwelling Holy Spirit and Christ who justifies them.

So you are on the wrong path in that anyone but Christ saves. We know Christ.

See how confused you are about what happens at salvation. That does not do a good job showing that the BOM clarifies anything. If we look at what you understand, than we have our proof that the BOM clarified nothing because you yourself do not understand.

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As a missionary my husband was told by a Evangelical man I was saved on Jan 24 1954. Groups of "Christians" come into Utah knocking on doors asking 'Are You Saved?'. My sister was taken to a Billy Gram revival meeting she got so caught up in the excitement she went forward to the alter call and was declared saved. My nephew was invited to a basketball camp which turned out to be a 'Save the Mormon' camp, they prayed over him fed him a bunch of anti garbage trying to break him down, but he was smarter than that. I've been given a pamphlet which said 'sign on the bottom and you'll be saved'.

Alter calls where a preach tells a person that they have been saved are not biblical!

Have I been saved? I know that I have been baptized and been given the gift of the Holy Ghost, I have asked the Lord to forgive me of my sins and to help me overcome the sins which lay before me. I have felt the loving peace His Spirit can give but;

"I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." Phi 3

Moving on with what the Book of Mormon teaches about our salvation, and remember you asked for it!

In Alma 11 & 12 there is a discussion between Alma, Amulek and a man named Zeezrom.

Zeezrom tries to tempt the two prophets into denying Christ by offering them money. Amulek calls him a liar and says I know if I did you planned not to give me the money at all, Zeezrom is taken back a little. He then goes through a series of trick questions trying to catch Amulek. But Amulek holds his own

And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?

And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.

28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?

29 And he answered, No.

30 Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?

31 And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me.

32 And Zeezrom said again: Who is he that shall come? Is it the Son of God?

33 And he said unto him, Yea…..

"And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?

And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;"

He is explaining that Jesus/Yahweh as the Son of God is the Father of heaven and earth in that He created it.

40 And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.

41 Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

42 Now, there is a death which is called a temporal death; and the death of Christ shall loose the bands of this temporal death, that all shall be raised from this temporal death.

43 The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt.

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

46 Now, when Amulek had finished these words the people began again to be astonished, and also Zeezrom began to tremble. (the Holy Spirit was working on him)

In the next chapter Alma steps in and begins to warn Zeezorm that his lying is going to catch him;

6 And behold I say unto you all that this was a snare of the adversary, which he has laid to catch this people, that he might bring you into subjection unto him, that he might encircle you about with his chains, that he might chain you down to everlasting destruction, according to the power of his captivity.

8 And Zeezrom began to inquire of them diligently, that he might know more concerning the kingdom of God. And he said unto Alma: What does this mean which Amulek hath spoken concerning the resurrection of the dead, that all shall rise from the dead, both the just and the unjust, and are brought to stand before God to be judged according to their works?

Alma again explains the resurrection and goes on,

13 Then if our hearts have been hardened, yea, if we have hardened our hearts against the word, insomuch that it has not been found in us, then will our state be awful, for then we shall be condemned.

14 For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence.

Alma knows what he speaks of because he too was a sinner once and went through the process. In Alma 36 he explains what happened to him after seeing an angel.

“I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins. Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; … the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror. Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds.”

Alma goes on to explain;
15 But this cannot be; we must come forth and stand before him in his glory, and in his power, and in his might, majesty, and dominion, and acknowledge to our everlasting shame that all his judgments are just; that he is just in all his works, and that he is merciful unto the children of men, and that he has all power to save every man that believeth on his name and bringeth forth fruit meet for repentance.

(Many Evangelicals miss that repentance part in their alter calls, it’s just call on Jesus and say I believe)

16 And now behold, I say unto you then cometh a death, even a second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that whosoever dieth in his sins, as to a temporal death, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as to things pertaining unto righteousness.

And then the same question you asked about Adam is asked

“20 But there was one Antionah, … said unto him: What is this that thou hast said, that man should rise from the dead and be changed from this mortal to an immortal state, that the soul can never die?

21 What does the scripture mean, which saith that God placed cherubim and a flaming sword on the east of the garden of Eden, lest our first parents should enter and partake of the fruit of the tree of life, and live forever? And thus we see that there was no possible chance that they should live forever.

Alma says;
“22 Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people.

23 And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die.”

That’s a good point God told him Adam that if he ate of the fruit he would die, so if he had let Adam partake of the Tree of Life and live without ever dieing it would have made God a liar. Let’s go to the Bible for a moment,

Our Father in Heaven made a statement of purpose in the first chapter

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…”

Peter taught;
“19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world,…..”

In Rev 13 it calls him;

“… the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world”

Jesus/Yahweh was called and foreordained before the fall which shows the fall was preplanned, it was always God’s intent that man become as he is to know good from evil which happened by partaking of the fruit.


Now back to Alma;

24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.

That was God’s intent in the first place, he wanted us to become like him to know the difference between good and evil, thus we would sin and needed a time to repent.

25 Now, if it had not been for the plan of redemption, which was laid from the foundation of the world, there could have been no resurrection of the dead; but there was a plan of redemption laid, which shall bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, of which has been spoken.

26 And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life they would have been forever miserable, having no preparatory state; and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated, and the word of God would have been void, taking none effect.

27 But behold, it was not so; but it was appointed unto men that they must die; and after death, they must come to judgment, even that same judgment of which we have spoken, which is the end.

So we have learned that this life is a preparatory state, we know this state we will have hard times, sins will face us. There will be forks in the road.

Alma goes on
"Wherefore, he gave commandments unto men, they having first transgressed the first commandments as to things which were temporal, and becoming as gods, knowing good from evil, placing themselves in a state to act, or being placed in a state to act according to their wills and pleasures, whether to do evil or to do good—

We each have a choice to choose;

33 But God did call on men, in the name of his Son, (this being the plan of redemption which was laid) saying: If ye will repent, and harden not your hearts, then will I have mercy upon you, through mine Only Begotten Son;

34 Therefore, whosoever repenteth, and hardeneth not his heart, he shall have claim on mercy through mine Only Begotten Son, unto a remission of his sins; and these shall enter into my rest.

35 And whosoever will harden his heart and will do iniquity, behold, I swear in my wrath that he shall not enter into my rest.

At the end of this chapter Alma pleads

“37 And now, my brethren, seeing we know these things, and they are true, let us repent, and harden not our hearts, that we provoke not the Lord our God to pull down his wrath upon us in these his second commandments which he has given unto us; but let us enter into the rest of God, which is prepared according to his word.”

Zeezrom does indeed repent but others do not and that is another whole story.

There is nothing in the Bible which lays out the plan of redemption as clearly as these two passages do !

Once again you asked for it,

This next passage is written before the Law of Moses has been fulfilled, 600 years before. So it is written by a man looking forward to Jesus and the atonement.

2 Nephi 25
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffneckedpeople; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses.

We Mormons are sometimes accused of believing works can save us and this passage is often used as an example, "after all we can do". But as you can see it really has the opposite meaning. Nephi and his family could only live the law of Moses because the Lord had commanded them to even though they knew it could not save them.

In the New Testament and later in the Book of Mormon also Jesus does not do away with the Law but expands it. It's no longer just "Thou shalt not kill" but "whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment" He gave us a high standard. He also gave a new set of ordinances with baptism and the sacraments. But, we are in the same situation as Nephi, I could love my brother all day long, I could be baptized a million times and none of it would save me. Without the plan of salvation through the atonement of Christ there would be no remission of sin.

"33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." 2Nephi 26

ToBeLoved said:

I know people use that terminology, but I still think it is disrespectful to Christ.

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It's people who believe in cheap grace who are being disrespectful to our Savior.

withwonderingawe said:

It's people who believe in cheap grace who are being disrespectful to our Savior.

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How is that?

Only Jesus knows if these people are saved. Who is saved and who is not.

So will each not be in the end judged by Jesus who will determine who is one of His.

Thinking a little more in-depth about this and because we KNOW that Only Christ knows one's heart, than that should be left to Christ.

So, I say again, 'cheap grace' used by anyone is dis-respectful.

withwonderingawe said:

Once again you asked for it,

This next passage is written before the Law of Moses has been fulfilled, 600 years before. So it is written by a man looking forward to Jesus and the atonement.

2 Nephi 25
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffneckedpeople; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses.

We Mormons are sometimes accused of believing works can save us and this passage is often used as an example, "after all we can do". But as you can see it really has the opposite meaning. Nephi and his family could only live the law of Moses because the Lord had commanded them to even though they knew it could not save them.

In the New Testament and later in the Book of Mormon also Jesus does not do away with the Law but expands it. It's no longer just "Thou shalt not kill" but "whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment" He gave us a high standard. He also gave a new set of ordinances with baptism and the sacraments. But, we are in the same situation as Nephi, I could love my brother all day long, I could be baptized a million times and none of it would save me. Without the plan of salvation through the atonement of Christ there would be no remission of sin.

"33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." 2Nephi 26

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So what specifically explains BETTER than the Bible?

Can you list the Bible verses and then the BOM verses for comparison, used within the same context?

My understanding is to show that the BOM explains salvation better.

ToBeLoved said:

How is that?

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If only Jesus knows who is or isn't saved, then how come such a large segment of Protestantism places a premium on "knowing" that one is saved and on declaring one's own salvation?

Critics of the church have even argued our "cult" status on the basis that we do teach that God alone knows a person's salvation and so we supposedly "live in fear" that we'll never have it.

ToBeLoved said:

How is that?

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If someone lets Christ into their heart, but is unwilling to take that relationship seriously enough start rejoicing as a disciple of Christ, but instead chooses to rejoice in continual unrepentant sins, then that person is treating Christ VERY cheaply and disrespectfully.

withwonderingawe said:

32 And Zeezrom said again: Who is he that shall come? Is it the Son of God?
33 And he said unto him, Yea…..
"And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.
Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?
And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;"

He is explaining that Jesus/Yahweh as the Son of God is the Father of heaven and earth in that He created it.

40 And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.

41 Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

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So how did Jesus earn His Godhood by His death on the cross, yet even the BOM is rightly saying that Jesus created the heavens and the earth?

withwonderingawe said:

It's people who believe in cheap grace who are being disrespectful to our Savior.

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It is ALSO the people who write about and push such verbage as cheap grace. Because they are calling it cheap grace, like yourself for instance.

Jane_Doe said:

If someone lets Christ into their heart, but is unwilling to take that relationship seriously enough start rejoicing as a disciple of Christ, but instead chooses to rejoice in continual unrepentant sins, then that person is treating Christ VERY cheaply and disrespectfully.

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ToBeLoved said:

It is ALSO the people who write about and push such verbage as cheap grace. Because they are calling it cheap grace, like yourself for instance.

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A person who decries falsehood (like the "cheap grace" behavior described in the first post here), is not disrespecting our Lord. Such false behavior SHOULD be called out.

ToBeLoved said:

So how did Jesus earn His Godhood by His death on the cross, yet even the BOM is rightly saying that Jesus created the heavens and the earth?

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Mormons do believe that Christ created the Heaven and Earth. Mormons believe that perfection and godliness is a matter of obedience and righteousness.

What Mormons don't believe (and is not supported by the Bible) is that godliness is a matter of you-happened-to-be-created-of-a-special-substance and hence get to be dictator (righteous or unrighteous) of the galaxy.

Jane_Doe said:

A person who decries falsehood (like the "cheap grace" behavior described in the first post here), is not disrespecting our Lord. Such false behavior SHOULD be called out.

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I agree false behavior should be called out.

But I am against that SPECIFIC PHRASE "cheap grace" because Christ's sacrifice to give us grace is in no way was cheap. The phrase implies that grace is cheap. It was not. That is disrespectful to God in that you are teaching others that phrase by using it so often.

Notice in post #131 I said "verbage". A key word in this discussion.

So, let's understand what I am against. Please read the above again if you need clarification of my point.

ToBeLoved said:

I agree false behavior should be called out.

But I am against that SPECIFIC PHRASE "cheap grace" because Christ's sacrifice to give us grace is in no way was cheap. The phrase implies that grace is cheap. It was not. That is disrespectful to God in that you are teaching others that phrase by using it so often.

Notice in post #131 I said "verbage". A key word in this discussion.

So, let's understand what I am against. Please read the above again if you need clarification of my point.

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What would you like a person to call a behavior which treats grace cheaply? "Cheap grace" seems pretty fitting.

ToBeLoved said:

I agree false behavior should be called out.

But I am against that SPECIFIC PHRASE "cheap grace" because Christ's sacrifice to give us grace is in no way was cheap. The phrase implies that grace is cheap. It was not. That is disrespectful to God in that you are teaching others that phrase by using it so often.

Notice in post #131 I said "verbage". A key word in this discussion.

So, let's understand what I am against. Please read the above again if you need clarification of my point.

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I think perhaps you are deliberately miss understanding, to Mormons the grace of our Lord is anything but cheap. He literally bled at every pore for our sins.

Ironhold said:

If only Jesus knows who is or isn't saved, then how come such a large segment of Protestantism places a premium on "knowing" that one is saved and on declaring one's own salvation?

Critics of the church have even argued our "cult" status on the basis that we do teach that God alone knows a person's salvation and so we supposedly "live in fear" that we'll never have it.

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Why don't you tell me what the Bible says and how we know we are saved? Since you say you know the Bible.

Jane_Doe said:

What would you like a person to call a behavior which treats grace cheaply? "Cheap grace" seems pretty fitting.

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Ok. Then from now on I will refer to JS as a false prophet who came not to restore Christianity (because Christianity is 2 Billion) strong, but a false prophet who led a bunch of people to Utah so they could continue their cult of polygamy and unGodliness under cover.

Because that is true.

withwonderingawe said:

I think perhaps you are deliberately miss understanding, to Mormons the grace of our Lord is anything but cheap. He literally bled at every pore for our sins.

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You do not even think that He is God until after he earned it. And you give him the lowest form of respect.

So in your choice of using this term, you are showing what you think.

ToBeLoved said:

Ok. Then from now on I will refer to JS as a false prophet who came not to restore Christianity (because Christianity is 2 Billion) strong, but a false prophet who led a bunch of people to Utah so they could continue their cult of polygamy and unGodliness under cover.

Because that is true.

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What the????

How in the world does this address my question? Especially considering "cheap grace" (the word choice you object to), is not part of Mormon verbiage? Rather, it's coined by a Lutheran and most commonly used nowadays in evangelical / non-denom churches. If it's verbiage you object to, you're objecting to the wrong people/church.