Why do you believe in the trinity when God and his word is simple

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JoeP222w

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Anything that is as convoluted as the trinity can't be from God and can't be true. If you have to break out a calculator or it takes a very long time to explain something in the bible it is not from god and in the case of the trinity not true. I of course was raised to believe in the trinity but instead of rejecting god and becoming an atheist because the trinity didn't make sense I did my research.

There is a website http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/articles/About.html

That pretty much sums up most peoples awakening from the lie of the trinity and I encourage anyone who wants to know the truth to read at least that page. The main problem with believing jesus is god is idolatry. Sin. An unnecessary one at that. Satan does all he can to thwart gods word and rebel against god and does all he can to lead people to sin even accidentally like in this case. Satanists main way of deception is half truths. Not to say those who believe in the trinity are satanists but they are deceived in the same way that luciferians deceive people. Give them a little bit of the truth with the rest a bold face lie to keep them from their full rewards and power in this life and the next.

I love jesus with all my heart but the fact is he is not god and never was. He didn't create the universe or humans. Anything miraculous he did was through god not because he was god. The lie has spread like a highly contagious virus and now 90% of christians believe it and commit an unnecessary sin. God bless.

If I understand correctly, your logic is saying that if you can't understand something, it is not of God and thus not true? Or that something that has a complex explanation means it is not true?

So you appear to be claiming that knowledge of God must fit within your parameters?

I recommend you spend some time reading the book of Job.
 
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JoeP222w

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And thus the OP makes himself the authority on what God can or cannot be like. In contrary to "God is unsearchable in His ways," et cetera.



It neither requires a calculator nor a very long time to explain the idea of the Holy Trinity, so there goes that argument...



So now we are to reject 1,982 years of Christian faith based on what some bloke wrote on Angelfire. Sigh.



Ah, so now Nicene Christians are idolaters. Lovely.



I would be rather more worried about being deceived by some chap who can't afford web hosting than by all mainstream Christian churches.



John 1:1-14 says He was God.



John 1:3 says otherwise.



If it's a sin to believe the Gospel of St. John, count me a sinner.


Well said!
 
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Der Alte

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How could the following not be any clearer? Trinitarians are such stiff necked people. Here is what you need to know aboutjohn 1:1. Refute it as much as you like but it is the truth. From

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/TTD/verses/john1_1.html

An honest exploration of the facts demonstrates to us that the Word of John 1:1 is the Word proclaimed through Jesus in his ministry and the Word he proclaimed was the proclamation of God the Father Himself, "the Word was God." He who had seen Jesus had seen the Father in terms of the things Jesus did. God is Life and Jesus fully expressed that Life in the words he spoke and the works he did. God is Truth and Jesus fully expressed that Truth by everything he said and did. God is Light and Jesus fully expressed the Light of the Father in all the words he spoke and works he did in the name of his God. God is Love and the flesh named Jesus fully expressed the Father's Love, dead flesh hanging on the cross for your sins and mine. The Word of God was something the flesh named Jesus always kept. The Word became flesh, that is, God the Father was manifested in flesh, that flesh named Jesus. Jesus came so that we might know the Father and Jesus fully expressed the Father in all the things he did because he always kept His Father's Word. Jesus' words and works were not his own but the Father's. The Word as proclaimed by Jesus... was God.

Here is how the native Greek speaking early church understood John 1:1.

Theophilus Of Antioch. [A.D. 115-181]
And hence the holy writings teach us, and all the spirit-bearing [inspired] men, one of whom,


John, says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,” showing that at first God was alone, and the Word in Him. Then he says, “The Word was God; all things came into existence through Him; and apart from Him not one thing came into existence.” The Word, then, being God, and being naturally produced from God, whenever the Father of the universe wills, He sends Him to any place; and He, coming, is both heard and seen, being sent by Him, and is found in a place.

Clement Of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] Exhortation To The Heathen
But before the foundation of the world were we, who, because destined to be in Him, pre-existed in the eye of God before, — we the rational creatures of the Word of God, on whose account we date
from the beginning; for “in the beginning was the Word.” Well, inasmuch as the Word was from the first, He was and is the divine source of all things; but inasmuch as He has now assumed the name Christ, consecrated of old, and worthy of power, he has been called by me the New Song. This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man — the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal.

Fragments Of Clemens Alexandrinus
Following the Gospel according to John, and in accordance with it, this Epistle also contains the spiritual principle. What therefore he says, “from the beginning,” the Presbyter explained to this effect, that the beginning of generation is not separated from the beginning of the Creator. For when he says,
“That which was from the beginning,” he touches upon the generation without beginning of the Son, who is co-existent with the Father. There was; then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreate. That He was always the Word, is signified by saying, “In the beginning was the Word.” But by the expression, “we have seen with our eyes,” he signifies the Lord’s presence in the flesh, “and our hands have handled,” he says, “of the Word of life.”

That is a still grander statement which you will find expressly made in the Gospel: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” There was One “who was,” and there was another “with whom” He was. But I find in Scripture the name LORD also applied to them Both: “The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit Thou on my right hand.” And Isaiah says this: “Lord, who hath believed our report, and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?” Now he would most certainly have said Thine Arm, if he had not wished us to understand that the Father is Lord, and the Son also is Lord. A much more ancient testimony we have also in Genesis: “Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven.” Now, either deny that this is Scripture; or else (let me ask) what sort of man you are, that you do not think words ought to be taken and understood in the sense in which they are written, especially when they are not expressed in allegories and parables, but in determinate and simple declarations?


Tertullian 6. On The Resurrection Of The Flesh [A.D. 145-220.]
“That,” says John, “which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.” Now the Word of life became flesh, and was heard, and was seen, and was handled, because He was flesh who,
before He came in the flesh, was the “Word in the beginning with God” the Father, and not the Father with the Word. For although the Word was God, yet was He with God, because He is God of God; and being joined to the Father, is with the Father

Tertullian 8. Scorpiace
By thus attaching the Son to Himself, He becomes His own interpreter in what sense He stretched out the heavens alone, meaning alone with His Son, even as He is one with His Son. The utterance, therefore, will be in like manner the Son’s, “I have stretched out the heavens alone,” because by the Word were the heavens established. Inasmuch, then, as the heaven was prepared when Wisdom was present in the Word, and
since all things were made by the Word, it is quite correct to say that even the Son stretched out the heaven alone, because He alone ministered to the Father’s work. It must also be He who says, “I am the First, and to all futurity I AM.” The Word, no doubt, was before all things. “In the beginning was the Word;” and in that beginning He was sent forth by the Father.

Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] The Refutation Of All Heresies Book 5

This, he says, is the great beginning respecting which Scripture has spoken. Concerning this, he says it has been declared: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This was in the beginning with God, all things were made by Him, and without Him was not one thing that was made. And what was formed in Him is life.” And in Him, he says, has been formed Eve; (now) Eve is life. This, however, he says, is Eve, mother of all living, — a common nature, that is, of gods, angels, immortals, mortals, irrational creatures, (and) rational ones. For, he says, the expression “all” he uttered of all (existences).
 
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stuart lawrence

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This is an outright lie. There is nothing in Exodus 3 that says God spoke "through an angel."

"
Now Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian, and he led his flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, “I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned.” 4 When the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 Then he said, “Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” 6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

7 Then the Lord said, “I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters. I know their sufferings, 8 and I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land to a good and broad land, a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 9 And now, behold, the cry of the people of Israel has come to me, and I have also seen the oppression with which the Egyptians oppress them. 10 Come, I will send you to Pharaoh that you may bring my people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt.” 11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the children of Israel out of Egypt?” 12 He said, “But I will be with you, and this shall be the sign for you, that I have sent you: when you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall serve God on this mountain.”

13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.”[a] And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’” 15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations. 16 Go and gather the elders of Israel together and say to them, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has appeared to me, saying, “I have observed you and what has been done to you in Egypt, 17 and I promise that I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, a land flowing with milk and honey.”’ 18 And they will listen to your voice, and you and the elders of Israel shall go to the king of Egypt and say to him, ‘The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us; and now, please let us go a three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.’ 19 But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless compelled by a mighty hand.[c] 20 So I will stretch out my hand and strike Egypt with all the wonders that I will do in it; after that he will let you go. 21 And I will give this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and when you go, you shall not go empty, 22 but each woman shall ask of her neighbor, and any woman who lives in her house, for silver and gold jewelry, and for clothing. You shall put them on your sons and on your daughters. So you shall plunder the Egyptians.”
"

Nothing in this text says the angel was speaking or that God was speaking through the angel. There are plenty of places in the OT where an angel speaks to men, so if that's what the passage was supposed to say, that's what it would say. But it specifically says "God called to him from out of the bush."

Stop making up things that I supposedly believe. Start acknowledging what scripture says about Jesus, the Christ - all of it - not just some.

The new covenant has only one foundation, and that foundation is the Lord Jesus Christ. Anything more is heresy.
You are desperate now aren't you. In verse two I states the angel of the lord appeared to Moses in flames of fire from the bush. In Acts 7:35 it specifically states God sent Moses to be the leader and deliver of the Israelites THROUGH( THROUGH) the angel who appeared to him in the bush
If you were humble you would accept your obvious great error, but you cannot can you for you come here to teach, not accept when you are clearly wrong.
So if Jesus stating the words I am proves he I'd God himself based on exch3, congratulations, in reality( though you will never admit it) you believe God is an angel
But you people will say anything and try and twist the plain word as much as you can rather than admit to error
 
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Der Alte

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And you think those statements mean Jesus lied when he said the father was the one true God and greater than he.
I will show you, your thinking is so wrong with your I AM quote
You are as good as saying God is an angel, even the JWS don't go that far!! Who ACTUALLY appeared to Moses from the burning bush???? So who did God speak through to Moses???

He was sent to be their leader and deliverer by God himself THROUGH the ANGEL who appeared to him in the bush Acts 7:35

So God spoke the words I AM through the angel.
Congratulations, you have now gone further than the jws and are beyond mainstream Christianity!

Exo 3:2-4
(2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
(3) And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
(4) And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Verse 2 the angel appeared to Moses "in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush:" and while the angel is in the flame outside the bush "God called unto him [Moses] out of the midst of the bush."
 
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stuart lawrence

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I just quoted directly from Jesus. The new covenant is made in His blood.

I continually post scripture which you just ignore because, supposedly, the few verses that you have latched on to cancel out that scripture. They don't. The Bible must be understood as a whole, not as parts that contradict and/or cancel out each other.

The Bible says that the Word was God. That the Word was sent into the world by the Father, and that His name was Jesus. The Bible says that Jesus laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of His hands. If Jesus was a created being, as you say, then none of this could be true. But if Jesus is the Word of God, as the Bible says, then all of it must be true.
The new covenant is sealed in Jesus blood, but there are TWO not one cote foundations to the new covenant. NO ONE can enter into the new covenant without both. Frankly, as you do not understand what the other core component is, it shows you are simply out of your depth in such a discussion. Sorry, but that I the truth, which I guess is why you keep accusing ne of heresy for believing the spoken words of Christ when he walked Thi earth
 
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Chriliman

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Sigh...All that can be done is to get the truth out there nothing more nothing less can be done. You must ask yourself what began through the son. What are they specifically talking about. Is it the world? no.

So you deny the words of Jesus? John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." The words of Jesus are the truth of God and Jesus says "I am the way and the truth and the life" It is us who begin to understand, it is not that the eternal truth of God began so that we can understand. The truth of God has always been true and will forever be true.

Listen and rely on Jesus, He'll point you to the Father and the Father gives wisdom freely. Don't rely on your own understanding, even though we like to think we understand so much, we really don't and I'm okay with that because I trust God will lead me into all truth.

God bless!
 
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nomadictheist

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You are desperate now aren't you. In verse two I states the angel of the lord appeared to Moses in flames of fire from the bush. In Acts 7:35 it specifically states God sent Moses to be the leader and deliver of the Israelites THROUGH( THROUGH) the angel who appeared to him in the bush
If you were humble you would accept your obvious great error, but you cannot can you for you come here to teach, not accept when you are clearly wrong.
So if Jesus stating the words I am proves he I'd God himself based on exch3, congratulations, in reality( though you will never admit it) you believe God is an angel
But you people will say anything and try and twist the plain word as much as you can rather than admit to error
As always, you take a single verse and believe that it contradicts what the Bible teaches.

Moses says that God spoke to him out of the midst of the bush. You say an angel spoke to him, because of one verse where Steven says "by the hand of the angel that appeared to him in the bush." But only a few verses earlier it says as he drew near to look, there came the "voice of the Lord," and "the Lord said to him..." It is clear even Stephen believed God was talking to Moses from out of the midst of the bush.

And in case you missed it,

"
13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’” 15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations. 16 Go and gather the elders of Israel together and say to them, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has appeared to me, saying, “I have observed you and what has been done to you in Egypt, 17 and I promise that I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, a land flowing with milk and honey.”’
"

Now tell me, you who are so good at asking questions and not good at answering, who did the sending? Was it the angel, or God? Because even your single verse in acts says that God did the sending.

And another question - did God require Moses to lie to the Israelites when He told him to say "The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has appeared to me"?
 
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nomadictheist

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The new covenant is sealed in Jesus blood, but there are TWO not one cote foundations to the new covenant. NO ONE can enter into the new covenant without both. Frankly, as you do not understand what the other core component is, it shows you are simply out of your depth in such a discussion. Sorry, but that I the truth, which I guess is why you keep accusing ne of heresy for believing the spoken words of Christ when he walked Thi earth
Then Jesus was also out of His depth, as were the apostles:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

"Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." (Acts 16:31)

"but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (John 20:31)"

"Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”" (John 11:25-26)

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." (John 3:36)

"To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
(Acts 10:43)

I believe the word of God that the only thing required for salvation is belief in the Son of God.
 
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katerinah1947

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And of course others believe great knowledge had been revealed to them just by meditation on the spiritual.

What is the core foundation of the new covenant upon which the christian faith stands?

If you can answer correctly I will accept you know far more than I of Christianity, even this subject. But could you answer correctly? I'm sure you cannot

Hi,

I left, and you pontificate with bluster.

You are scoffing. You have not answered,

How Christ Being Begotten, to you is less than His Dad.

You tell us, that Equal Trinty exists, and now you want to say how perfect knowledgeable you are in Christianity.

Proverbs has words for people who will say anything to be heard.

Proverbs 9, has those statements about scoffers.

You scoff.

I leave for awhile and did. I come back to find you blustering?

You committed, officially, to following The Jesus, of Psalms 2.

Then, That person Jesus, in Psalms 2, after His Father Said: This day I have begotten you, in no way will you talk about That Jesus, being begotten.

Is Jesus Begotten?
In what ways is Jesus less than His Dad?

Wisdom of Proverbs imparts knowledge.

Display yours.

When God, Begot His Own Son, By Himself, How is His Own Son not like His Father?

What did His Father leave out?

You who know so much tell me.

LOVE,
 
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Righttruth

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How could the following not be any clearer? Trinitarians are such stiff necked people. Here is what you need to know about john 1:1. Refute it as much as you like but it is the truth. From http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/TTD/verses/john1_1.html
An honest exploration of the facts demonstrates to us that the Word of John 1:1 is the Word proclaimed through Jesus in his ministry and the Word he proclaimed was the proclamation of God the Father Himself, "the Word was God." He who had seen Jesus had seen the Father in terms of the things Jesus did. God is Life and Jesus fully expressed that Life in the words he spoke and the works he did. God is Truth and Jesus fully expressed that Truth by everything he said and did. God is Light and Jesus fully expressed the Light of the Father in all the words he spoke and works he did in the name of his God. God is Love and the flesh named Jesus fully expressed the Father's Love, dead flesh hanging on the cross for your sins and mine. The Word of God was something the flesh named Jesus always kept. The Word became flesh, that is, God the Father was manifested in flesh, that flesh named Jesus. Jesus came so that we might know the Father and Jesus fully expressed the Father in all the things he did because he always kept His Father's Word. Jesus' words and works were not his own but the Father's. The Word as proclaimed by Jesus... was God.

Yes, the Word was God, not is God.
 
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Righttruth

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God the Father and His Son and His Spirit have no beginning or end, therefore are the one true God.

How can the Son begin if everything began through Him? Answer is, the Son did not begin, but has always been, just like the Father and His Holy Spirit.

God has no beginning and no end. Jesus is the beginning and the end (Alpha and Omega)
 
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Chriliman

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God has no beginning and no end. Jesus is the beginning and the end (Alpha and Omega)

In your understanding, what's the difference between saying Jesus is the beginning and the end vs Jesus began and will end?
 
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Abram's Awakening

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I cannot believe that this thread is still open...

Seek the Word, for it is the conduit a man must travel through in order to reach Him. That is the point-for it is the face of Christ...

When He says "was", He refers to a past tense perception in regard to prophecy. Or did you not know that Genesis through Zechariah are in reference to the beginning of Revelations?

For the Word of God cycles through as a new generation comes about, like the dawn of a new era...

The Word in all its fullness is a fourth part that creeps into the minds of men during very dark times(Like a theif in the night) -progressively more and more as civilization advances to the ends of the earth...
 
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katerinah1947

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Hi,

Just a thought from yesterday, the 12th.

In Proverbs-A-Chapter-A-Day

http://www.christianforums.com/forums/proverbs-a-chapter-a-day.1224/

@musicalpilgrim said this:


Proverbs 12 Living Bible (TLB)
12 To learn, you must want to be taught. To refuse reproof is stupid.

letgodcorrectyou.jpg

LOVE,
 
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