Post-Trib Only Have you had an NDE and what did you see, if anything ?!

stephen583 · Jan 29, 2016

Why don't you just own up to what you say and stop all the fancy prevaricating and back pedaling ?

JaeMelo · Jan 30, 2016

LastSeven said:
Although psyche even today still is defined as soul or breath of life it has also come to include the mind, but modern definitions are irrelevant when researching biblical meanings. We always have to look at the original meaning when the words were originally written. Therefore, your idea about what psuche means is not well supported in relation to its Biblical usage and consequently largely irrelevant.

Unless you can show me something that proves (or even strongly suggests) the Biblical authors did not mean "life" when they used the word "psuche" (which is sometimes translated as soul) I will have to stand by my original position.

And for the record I am not a Jehovah's witness, but what if I was? Would that then automatically disqualify anything I say? How about we let the facts determine what's true and what's false, rather than determining the value of people's positions based on their denominations and labels.

Well said... I was an ex JW years ago and was taught about sheol/hades which if im correct is were our souls go once our physical bodies die till judgement day. His ending comment seems nothing more than an attempt to make a low blow out of pure frustration.

stephen583 · Jan 30, 2016

LastSeven said:
Excuse me, but if it's not in the Bible then it's not Biblical.

Let's put that to the test as far as your "opinion ?!" the soul of a Christian remains in his body in the grave awaiting the resurrection and the final judgment.

"And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes ? and whence came they ? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:13-14).

If you have any doubt these Christian souls were not resurrected before the Tribulation Period, or that they were part of some Post Wrath/general resurrection and final judgment, all you have to do is flip back one page to Revelation Chapter Six and keep reading.

"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth" ? (Revelation 6:10).

Revelation 6:12-17 describes the Great Day of Wrath which is the Second Coming of Christ, and that comes only after their fellow servants and brethren who should also be killed as they were are martyred, (Rev.6:11).

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palms in their hands, (Revelations 7:9).

So now we have not just a handful of Pre-tribulation, Pre Judgment resurrections, but a great multitude, which no man could number... Why aren't all these Christian souls in their graves and bodies awaiting the resurrection according to your doctrine ? Simple. Your doctrine is not only spurious, it's contradicted by the Bible.

According to Christian theology, it's "absent from the body, present with the Lord, (2 Corinthians 5:8). Daniel, Job and Noah (as well as a whole host of biblical figures who were reckoned as being righteous by God, but who didn't have Christ), may be dead and waiting in the grave for the general resurrection and judgment just as Solomon said. I on the other hand, will be resurrected immediately upon my death as indicated by biblical proof in Revelation 6 and 7, and 2 Corinthians 5:8). Nor will I be subject to the second death, (Revelation 21:8) or the Judgment, because my sins are paid for by the blood sacrifice of Christ and won't even be remembered by God, more less weighed in the Judgment, (Ephesians 1:7 Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9).

For someone you claim has a lousy Bible memory, to use a gaming analogy, seems to me I just "SANK YOUR BATTLESHIP". Perhaps you should spend some more time in the general "theology" forum before you venture into "eschatology" and try to teach theology here. Or at least, work on your amnesia.

LastSeven · Jan 30, 2016

Stephen, why do you take this approach that it's you vs me? Your doctrine vs my doctrine? Do you really think you're helping anybody by constantly attacking me? Do you think you're helping me? Enlightening me? Or maybe you're not trying to help me. Maybe you're just trying to belittle me. Does it make you feel better about yourself? I told you right at the start that this is not a simple subject. I don't have a "doctrine" on this subject. I'm trying to figure it out, but I'm also not an idiot so don't talk to me as though I am.

Do you really think I'm not aware of the souls under the altar? Or that verse you keep quoting about being away from the body? Do you really think I'm not aware of those? Of course there are apparently contradicting verses, but you never even gave me a chance to address those issues because I've been too busy addressing your strawman arguments and personal attacks. And on the flip side you never addressed any of the points I made, also because you've been too busy misunderstanding me and attacking me. Did you really not expect any dissenting opinions when you started this thread? Were you caught off guard? Maybe you thought we would all say "wow, that's amazing! Thank you for sharing!"? Is that why you're so aggressive?

The fact is there are verses that seem to indicate that there is a spirit that separates from the body, and I gladly acknowledge that. Contrary to your claims I do not ignore or twist scripture to suit my purpose. That would be counter productive because my purpose is to understand the truth, not to make scripture fit what I would like to be the truth. But there are also many verses (one could argue even more verses) that seem to indicate that there is no spirit that separates from the body. And we have to acknowledge those also. We can't just pretend those don't exist and stick with what we like. There are verses on both sides of this issue, which makes this far from simple.

Here's the difference between you and I. I recognize the verses on both sides of this debate and I weigh the possibility of contradiction vs the possibility of symbolism vs the likelihood of literalism on all these verses, because that's the only way we're going to get to the truth. Not by making assumptions to fill in the gaps in our understanding, but by keeping an open mind to other possibilities allowed for by scripture. You on the other hand have already made your decision, even in the face of contradicting scripture which you have so far refused to address, and you seem content to just keep ramming your favourite verses down my throat until I submit to you. Well, I'm sorry but you can't bully me into believing something. This is a complicated matter and it requires a thorough investigation.

I'm willing to explore the various possibilities on all these verses with you, but only if you can promise to be objective and fair and leave your emotions and personal biases at the door. Everybody in this discussion (or any discussion regarding scripture) has to have an open mind. I'm not here to "pick a side" and start lobbing grenades at the other side. I'm not playing battleship. I'm here to discover the truth.

stephen583 · Jan 30, 2016

You're the one who insists on keeping this back and forth, personal attack business going, (as evidenced by your last post). I'm fully aware of the rule requiring CF members to address the subject of a thread and not the poster of a thread, and I have duly reported every such violation by you. When I started a new thread at "The Last Beast System, Revelation 13:11" you even followed me there to post your negative (opinion ?!) without so much as an explanation. That was also reported. So please stop the harassment and the feigned apologies before you launch your next attack. It's becoming quite nauseating.

LastSeven · Jan 30, 2016

Oh, I see what's going on here. I'm talking to a 12 year old. My mistake.

LastSeven · Jan 30, 2016

stephen583 said:
When I started a new thread at "The Last Beast System, Revelation 13:11" you even followed me there to post your negative (opinion ?!) without so much as an explanation. That was also reported.

I've never even heard of that thread so stop with the false accusations and go take your crying somewhere else. Preferably off the internet.

stephen583 · Jan 31, 2016

LastSeven said:
Were you caught off guard? Maybe you thought we would all say "wow, that's amazing! Thank you for sharing!"? Is that why you're so aggressive?

Since you don't have a clue, I'll enlighten you. I've posted this same information on four other Christian Websites in the last five months. I reckon I'm getting about a thousand views a week now. I'm looking for the one person who will recognize what I've written. Since I've only posted about half of what I know, I can easily verify this person is "legitimate" by asking him three questions only he and I know the answers to.

It's a detective trick I learned many years ago when I was a police officer. You don't reveal all the details of a case. That way you can separate the lambs from the goats. The people who can be helpful in solving the mystery, and those who can't.

So you see, your approval or "Douug's" is not only not sought after in this case, it's irrelevant to these proceedings. You're just background "static" noise.

stephen583 · Jan 31, 2016

LastSeven said:
I've never even heard of that thread so stop with the false accusations and go take your crying somewhere else. Preferably off the internet.

Your right. That was John S. Another irrelevant annoying noisemaker who's been following me around these threads slinging insults and apologizing in the same post. You guys are so much alike, it's hard to separate the two of you mentally.

Lulav · Feb 10, 2016

OKEY DOKEY FOLKS
I don't want to do it so

There has been too much
Goading and Flaming.
As Christians I would like
to see better behavior.
Please review your posts
and see if you can't edit them
to something you wouldn't mind
saying in front of Jesus
Thank You
MOD HAT OFF

daq · Feb 11, 2016

Shalom Lulav, nice to see you are moderating now.

Dear OP Stephen, all of it is for you personally in your walk and not "for the world". At the same time be mindful that such things are often used for testing grounds, (you are likely being tested) to see whether or not you love God and His Word with all of your heart, mind, and, ehem, nephesh-psuche. Dreamers of dreams and false prophets can also come to you in dreams and visions, (for example such as mentioned in Deuteronomy 13). Everything MUST comply with the scripture; the scripture is the authority over and above such things, and what things you do not yet understand must at least not blatantly contradict what is written, (not traditions but what is actually written). However I am somewhat surprised you were not warned to keep these things private until a certain unknown appointed time, (which is also a test of your patience). One thing good about the jolt from the stove and probably the bear incident also: you were somewhat humbled, and that is a good sign, be humble and remain humble. Peace to you in Messiah Yeshua.

stephen583 · Feb 11, 2016

Actually daq, what I was told was exactly the opposite. It IS the APPOINTED TIME to discuss these things.

vinsight4u · Feb 12, 2016

vinsight4u · Feb 12, 2016

vinsight4u · Feb 12, 2016

stephen583 · Feb 12, 2016

vinsight4u said:
They sleep there, as
their souls wait to live again

So the Apostle Paul was "lying" when he said, "absent from the body, present with the Lord" ?! (2 Corinthians 5:8). I'll stick with what the Apostle Paul teaches will happen when a believer dies, and leave the "big sleep" doctrine to everyone else. Thanks anyway.

LastSeven · Feb 12, 2016

Here we go again...

vinsight4u · Feb 12, 2016

stephen583 · Feb 12, 2016

vinsight4u said:
No, the believers still go to heaven. They return later as sleeping saints.

1 Corinthians 15:18
"Then they also which are asleep in Christ..."

1 Thessalonians 4:14
"For....even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Good try, but remember everyone has the internet now and can access several sources of Christian Bible commentary on a particular verse instantaneously . According to Gill's Exposition Bible Commentary, neither 1 Corinthians 15:18, or 1 Thessalonians 4:14 refers to an actual state of "unconscious" death, when they speak of those who are "asleep in Christ".

The phrase "asleep in Christ" differentiates between those believers who've already passed on as being "apart" from those who remain "living" and "actively" practicing Christianity on earth, (ei. the dead are only asleep, or inactive in a "metaphorical" sense). The same conclusion is reached in all five major Christian Commentaries on the subject of these verses.

Otherwise, the verses you quoted would be in direct "contradiction" to what the apostle Paul states as correct doctrine in 2 Corinthians 5:8. Like I said, "good try, though it's not Scripturally correct".

LastSeven · Feb 12, 2016

The word "sleep" as used in 1 Corinthians 15:18

Strong's Concordance
koimaó from NG2749: sleep, fall asleep, die
Original Word: κοιμάομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: koimaó from NG2749
Phonetic Spelling: (koy-mah'-o)
Short Definition: I fall asleep, am asleep
Definition: I fall asleep, am asleep, sometimes of the sleep of death.

Post-Trib Only Have you had an NDE and what did you see, if anything ?!

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