The Marriage Debate

redblue22 · Feb 12, 2016

no mercy.

blackribbon · Feb 12, 2016

William67 said:
Except that in this day and age, with society being what it is, a man isn't going to go around saying he is a virgin if he isn't. That's a sure way to be the butt of every other man's jokes. They even made a "comedy" about it, re: "The 40 Year Old Virgin". A woman's virginity is something to be "cherished". A man's virginity? Something to be shamed and ridiculed.

And why is that? Sounds like the Christian men in the world aren't doing a very good job of teaching the boys how to be godly men. But honestly, we are to believe the men but all women are potential liars. <rolls her eyes>

redblue22 · Feb 12, 2016

it is where being unmerciful leads. be glad that some virgin woman didn't marry him. without the special sign, she is worthless.

blackribbon · Feb 12, 2016

Makes me wonder if some blood stained sheets are framed in some houses so that the boys know how important it is that their first sexual encounter with a woman is a painful unpleasant experience for her but proves she is "clean" and "worthy" of him. I wonder how many boys have really asked their moms as adults if they were virgins at the time of marriage and why they assume that mom didn't lie if she said 'yes'.

William67 · Feb 12, 2016

blackribbon said:
And why is that? Sounds like the Christian men in the world aren't doing a very good job of teaching the boys how to be godly men. But honestly, we are to believe the men but all women are potential liars. <rolls her eyes>

Society has changed since the 50's. It is socially acceptable, even encouraged, for men and women to be promiscuous. And while women aren't generally "shamed" for being virgins, men are. Our masculinity is challenged. Ive actually been called "freak" and asked if I was a "bible thumper" or a "religious nut" when people have found out about my virginity. And Heaven forbid you "offend" some women by turning down their offer to "alleviate" you of your "problem". Then, they really get nasty with their insults. I'm not going to post some of the things said to me, on here, simply because doing so would get be banned.

Men have always been lascivious. And women are quickly catching up to us in "reputation". According to some polls, men have an average of 9 partners. Women now have an average of 7. Equality at its finest, according to secular society. And remember, those are just the averages.

blackribbon · Feb 12, 2016

William67 said:
Society has changed since the 50's. It is socially acceptable, even encouraged, for men and women to be promiscuous. And while women aren't generally "shamed" for being virgins, men are. Our masculinity is challenged. Ive actually been called "freak" and asked if I was a "bible thumper" or a "religious nut" when people have found out about my virginity. And Heaven forbid you "offend" some women by turning down their offer to "alleviate" you of your "problem". Then, they really get nasty with their insults. I'm not going to post some of the things said to me, on here, simply because doing so would get be banned.

Men have always been lascivious. And women are quickly catching up to us in "reputation". According to some polls, men have an average of 9 partners. Women now have an average of 7. Equality at its finest, according to secular society. And remember, those are just the averages.

Why would anyone find out about your virginity or lack of it? Why is sexual status a point of general conversation? I also think you need to find different people to hang out with because you tend to assume that everyone is a certain way and I have found plenty of people who do not take sexual status as casually as your companions sound like they do...especially in Christian circles.

William67 · Feb 12, 2016

blackribbon said:
Makes me wonder if some blood stained sheets are framed in some houses so that the boys know how important it is that their first sexual encounter with a woman is a painful unpleasant experience for her but proves she is "clean" and "worthy" of him. I wonder how many boys have really asked their moms as adults if they were virgins at the time of marriage and why they assume that mom didn't lie if she said 'yes'.

My mother divorced my father while she was still pregnant with me. I grew up in the same house with my grandparents. I knew from an early age what my grandfather was and even my uncle told stories about how bad my grandfather was when they were young. My mother was never allowed to "date" as most people consider dating. When the weather was too cold, they sat inside the house, in the same room as my grandparents. If it was warm enough to be outside, they sat on the front porch, with the windows open and my grandparents sat inside, listening and watching. My parents started dating when my mother was 14. They married when she was 17. Actually, it was 2 weeks after her 17th birthday. It was the same for her grandparents.

My great-grandmother's "bird and bees" talk with my grandmother consisted of, "I would rather see you dead and buried than "ruined"'. My grandmother also married at age 17.

William67 · Feb 12, 2016

blackribbon said:
Why would anyone find out about your virginity or lack of it? Why is sexual status a point of general conversation? I also think you need to find different people to hang out with because you tend to assume that everyone is a certain way and I have found plenty of people who do not take sexual status as casually as your companions sound like they do...especially in Christian circles.

I assume that you remember the early days of AIDS? Remember when people talked about, "When you sleep with someone, you are also sleeping with every person they have slept with"? Only a moron doesn't ask about someone's sexual history, especially if youre considering them as "marriage material".

blackribbon · Feb 12, 2016

William67 said:
My mother divorced my father while she was still pregnant with me. I grew up in the same house with my grandparents. I knew from an early age what my grandfather was and even my uncle told stories about how bad my grandfather was when they were young. My mother was never allowed to "date" as most people consider dating. When the weather was too cold, they sat inside the house, in the same room as my grandparents. If it was warm enough to be outside, they sat on the front porch, with the windows open and my grandparents sat inside, listening and watching. My parents started dating when my mother was 14. They married when she was 17. Actually, it was 2 weeks after her 17th birthday. It was the same for her grandparents.

My great-grandmother's "bird and bees" talk with my grandmother consisted of, "I would rather see you dead and buried than "ruined"'. My grandmother also married at age 17.

Ahhh, the good old days where virginity and "honor" was more important than the girl....wish we could return to those blessed days of honor....

blackribbon · Feb 12, 2016

William67 said:
I assume that you remember the early days of AIDS? Remember when people talked about, "When you sleep with someone, you are also sleeping with every person they have slept with"? Only a moron doesn't ask about someone's sexual history, especially if youre considering them as "marriage material".

Have you ever dated someone where you got to the point where marriage was being seriously considered? That is the point where you talk about sex....and sexual history if you really do think sexual relations are holy and for marriage only. Otherwise, it sounds like you are checking out to see if they will sleep with you outside of marriage....so an inquiry.

blackribbon · Feb 12, 2016

William67 said:
I assume that you remember the early days of AIDS? Remember when people talked about, "When you sleep with someone, you are also sleeping with every person they have slept with"? Only a moron doesn't ask about someone's sexual history, especially if youre considering them as "marriage material".

If this is really your concern, ask for proof that you don't have any STDs. This is a simple doctor's visit. If you are "clean", then you are clean and you can't pass on any diseases from any prior encounter. They don't sit dormant waiting to attack an unsuspecting victim 5 years later...

Swan7 · Feb 12, 2016

I have had friends that thought their partner was clean - and even themselves - but wasn't the case because they themselves didn't check. So yeah, the STD (not STI) issue is quite valid.

blackribbon · Feb 12, 2016

I'd not be opposed to a STD test being a paper you have to provide to get married...not that you have to be free of all diseases but you have to provide it and allow your potential partner to read it. Maybe all Christian premarital counseling sessions ought to address this too.

William67 · Feb 12, 2016

blackribbon said:
Have you ever dated someone where you got to the point where marriage was being seriously considered? That is the point where you talk about sex....and sexual history if you really do think sexual relations are holy and for marriage only. Otherwise, it sounds like you are checking out to see if they will sleep with you outside of marriage....so an inquiry.

Yeah, I was engaged once, more than 12 years ago. She repeatedly said she was a virgin. She said that right up until the moment I found out she was still sleeping with her ex-boyfriend. When her mother found out that I had called off the wedding and dumped her, she called me. It was then that I found out that not only was she still sleeping with her ex, but when she was 20 she had moved in an lived with a guy for 3 years. That's wife material right there. A liar with the morals of an alley cat. Yep. Definitely wife material.

William67 · Feb 12, 2016

blackribbon said:
If this is really your concern, ask for proof that you don't have any STDs. This is a simple doctor's visit. If you are "clean", then you are clean and you can't pass on any diseases from any prior encounter. They don't sit dormant waiting to attack an unsuspecting victim 5 years later...

If, for the whole time you have been in a serious relationship, they have repeatedly stated that they are still a virgin, how would you react to basically being called a lair by being asked for "proof" you don't have an STD?

blackribbon · Feb 12, 2016

William67 said:
Yeah, I was engaged once, more than 12 years ago. She repeatedly said she was a virgin. She said that right up until the moment I found out she was still sleeping with her ex-boyfriend. When her mother found out that I had called off the wedding and dumped her, she called me. It was then that I found out that not only was she still sleeping with her ex, but when she was 20 she had moved in an lived with a guy for 3 years. That's wife material right there. A liar with the morals of an alley cat. Yep. Definitely wife material.

Why didn't know this before you proposed? I would have thought if you had spent any time with her family and friends that someone would have told you. I knew my boyfriends' histories...like who they lived with and all their jobs and stuff. It sounds like mom would have told you without any problem earlier if she had the opportunity. When did she have time to sleep with the ex-boyfriend unnoticed? I would think this experience would have turned you off on "virgins" since they can't be trusted....if you went with someone who at least admitted to having had sex, at least you would know she was honest.

blackribbon · Feb 12, 2016

William67 said:
If, for the whole time you have been in a serious relationship, they have repeatedly stated that they are still a virgin, how would you react to basically being called a lair by being asked for "proof" you don't have an STD?

Offer to get one yourself to give to her ... and pay for hers ... and to be honest, by the time you got to this point, she would know that this is a 'hang up' of yours and if she loved you enough to marry you, she would just play along and to humor you.

K9_Trainer · Feb 12, 2016

blackribbon said:
Why do you think this is "weird"? This is what most people really do want. They want to find that one person they connect to and stay with them for the rest of their lives. Even those who are in a series of short term relationships feel this way....each one of those short term relationships is actual attached to a hope that "this is the one".

I wasn't very clear on my thoughts, sorry.

I mean sexually. It seems very common place now for people to be promiscuous between relationships and have flings or one night stands or friends with benefits, rather than being celebate. That's what I feel is weird about myself compared to other non-theists or atheists. I don't care for casual sex outside of committed relationships, and I don't agree with it. I feel like it devalues sex as a channel for intimacy. I do want one person I can connect to and stay with for life, and that is honestly the only person I want to be sexually involved with. And ideally, I'd like a partner who sees eye to eye with me on this as well. But like I said, it doesn't seem like my feelings on this matter are typical for people of my world view.

Cearbhall · Feb 12, 2016

William67 said:
Except that in this day and age, with society being what it is, a man isn't going to go around saying he is a virgin if he isn't.

A "born-again virgin" does just that, and a gay man trying to avoid prejudice or assault might also say it.

William67 said:
If, for the whole time you have been in a serious relationship, they have repeatedly stated that they are still a virgin, how would you react to basically being called a lair by being asked for "proof" you don't have an STD?

Erm, a virgin can have certain STDs. I don't see the insult. This is just basic sexual health and consideration for others.

William67 · Feb 12, 2016

Cearbhall said:
A "born-again virgin" does just that, and a gay man trying to avoid prejudice or assault might also say it.

Erm, a virgin can have certain STDs. I don't see the insult. This is just basic sexual health and consideration for others.

If a "born again virgin" is calling himself/herself a virgin, he/she is a liar. Youre joking right? The few homosexuals I have met were extremely proud of how many partners they had.

You must not be from the deep south. Even suggesting that a woman may have an STD is tantamount to calling her a harlot.

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