Orthodox view on Marriage, submission, roles, and family

gzt · Feb 9, 2016

Christ can certainly exhibit control over us: he's God, we're not.

How am I supposed to put these Scriptures into play? Certainly not by giving the husband control over the wife. I'm not quite sure why my previous response was inadequate.

Cappadocious · Feb 10, 2016

All4Christ said:
Do you feel that we women have a responsibility to be the ones to take care of the home, and to stay home with children?

Not necessarily.

All4Christ said:
Or does an Orthodox Christian marriage often 'look' like an egalitarian marriage

Ideally.

All4Christ said:
with the understanding that if something was to occur where an agreement can't be made, that the husband would have the final say?

Husband as Patriarch of Constantinople is one I haven't heard before!

All4Christ said:
How can an Orthodox wife fulfill her role, while still working full time? Or should she, if finances allow, decide to stay home with children?

What's your gut feeling on this, and how long have you had the same gut feeling?

All4Christ said:
We talk often about the Babas in our parishes and their importance to us, yet the husband is the spiritual head.

In my experience most men who would invoke the phrase "spiritual head" in a relationship are unfit to be head of anything, let alone a multi-person family. Sort of like how someone who talks about "the field of honour" is more fit to be in a Renaissance fair than in the real military.

ArmyMatt · Feb 10, 2016

All4Christ said:
This is pretty similar to what our priest told us. In theory it makes sense, but I never really understood how it plays out in real life. Do you have an example of a woman submitting to her husband? Or a husband serving and sacrificing himself for the wife?

I know it sounds cliche, but think of Christ washing the feet of the disciples. He was in charge and called them there, and when there, He washed their feet.

All4Christ · Feb 10, 2016

Cappadocious said:
What's your gut feeling on this, and how long have you had the same gut feeling?

My gut feeling? I've always appreciated having my mom be at home with us growing up. I don't want some stranger raising my kids, especially as babies or young children. Ideally, one of us would be there. I've always thought I'd stay home once we have children. I love kids and would like to be a mom soon and take care of them as part of my vocation. That's been my thought for years, before I even came into the Orthodox Church.

That said, I am torn. I love my job and would have a hard time giving it up for life. My husband is concerned about only one person working due to his job not being 100% steady (once he moves full time to the business he started). We need some kind of insurance, which my job is great for providing.

So I guess my gut feeling is yes, but in reality it is much more complicated.

In my experience most men who would invoke the phrase "spiritual head" in a relationship are unfit to be head of anything, let alone a multi-person family. Sort of like how someone who talks about "the field of honour" is more fit to be in a Renaissance fair than in the real military.

I'd imagine the one way that model would work would be if the wife "chooses" to follow her husband's decision they can't come to an agreement, and he doesn't force her to do that.

All4Christ · Feb 10, 2016

ArmyMatt said:
I know it sounds cliche, but think of Christ washing the feet of the disciples. He was in charge and called them there, and when there, He washed their feet.

That makes sense, but I could you give me an example of a real life situation? My priest told us to follow the model you described and he discussed the whole submission thing where I am supposed to submit to my husband and he is supposed to put me before him and take care of me like Christ takes care of us, but I still don't know exactly what he meant we should do in our marriage about that.

ArmyMatt · Feb 10, 2016

All4Christ said:
That makes sense, but I could you give me an example of a real life situation? My priest told us to follow the model you described and he discussed the whole submission thing where I am supposed to submit to my husband and he is supposed to put me before him and take care of me like Christ takes care of us, but I still don't know exactly what he meant we should do in our marriage about that.

Well, as an example between my wife and I, if we wanted to go somewhere on vacation, I have the final say in where we go, but that final say must be for her. It is not just a my way because I am the husband. If I just impose my will, it will fall apart. That keeps order in the home and keeps the husband and wife equal in dignity

gzt · Feb 10, 2016

Do you think God demands that you have the final say?

Cappadocious · Feb 10, 2016

All4Christ said:
My gut feeling? I've always appreciated having my mom be at home with us growing up. I don't want some stranger raising my kids, especially as babies or young children. Ideally, one of us would be there. I've always thought I'd stay home once we have children. I love kids and would like to be a mom soon and take care of them as part of my vocation. That's been my thought for years, before I even came into the Orthodox Church.

That said, I am torn. I love my job and would have a hard time giving it up for life. My husband is concerned about only one person working due to his job not being 100% steady (once he moves full time to the business he started). We need some kind of insurance, which my job is great for providing.

So I guess my gut feeling is yes, but in reality it is much more complicated.

I'd imagine the one way that model would work would be if the wife "chooses" to follow her husband's decision they can't come to an agreement, and he doesn't force her to do that.

If you can't go part time, maybe you could quit, actively maintain ties and a voice in your job field for, say, five years or so, then try to return to work. The "actively maintain ties" part is the hardest but important.

As for submission and agreement: remember that whatever the husband/wife relationship images, it sure isn't supposed to look like a parent/child relationship. On another board we have a very intelligent woman who can't go to the Orthodox Church because "hubby only let's her once a month." Another poster's wife will emotionally abuse him if he goes too often.

ArmyMatt · Feb 10, 2016

gzt said:
Do you think God demands that you have the final say?

Demands? No. I never said He demands anything

gzt · Feb 10, 2016

Great, then we can dispense with it completely.

ArmyMatt · Feb 10, 2016

gzt said:
Great, then we can dispense with it completely.

I would if the Bible did not say that the man is the head, but it does

gzt · Feb 10, 2016

So God does demand it.

ArmyMatt · Feb 10, 2016

gzt said:
So God does demand it.

no, He makes no demands. He has established the family as one man and one woman with the man being the head as Christ is head of the Church. that is not the same as Him demanding anything. He has set it up like that to lead men and women into life in Him. He has also granted them the freedom to not follow it.

gzt · Feb 10, 2016

So the man not having the final say - there being no final say but rather everything is communicated and negotiated in kindness - is somehow rebelling against the way God has set it up.

ArmyMatt · Feb 10, 2016

gzt said:
So the man not having the final say - there being no final say but rather everything is communicated and negotiated in kindness - is somehow rebelling against the way God has set it up.

The man having the final say, and everything being negotiated in kindness are not mutually exclusive. And the Bible is pretty clear on how the family is set up as God tells us to set it up

gzt · Feb 10, 2016

I think it's hardly obvious that the commands in the Bible indicate that the man has the final say, that the woman must obey if it comes down to that, etc. And that a couple is rebelling against that if they simply don't have any cases where the woman must, at the end, let the man have the final say and obey (and never vice versa). I don't find that kind of control necessary and, insofar as it may be in the text, not at all obligatory. And when there is that control, it has the very real potential of undermining the health of the relationship.

ArmyMatt · Feb 10, 2016

Genesis 3 seems pretty clear as does the wedding epistle, and there is no evidence to the contrary. And you must remember that the husband serves and sacrifices for the wife. It is not about dominance for the husband, but so he can serve her. The submission is mutual on both parties

Cappadocious · Feb 10, 2016

Should wives ignore their consciences in their submission to the head?

You'd probably say no. So you know, there's not much left for ol' head to do.

gzt · Feb 10, 2016

Well, let me put it this way, since I agree about "mutual submission": Does God require the wife to obey the husband or not? If yes, what happens when the woman does not obey in the instance that the husband has made the decision?

If the answer is "no", then there really isn't any functional difference with the sort of stance I take and I believe the OP is still confused about what the wife submitting to the husband is supposed to look like, at least, different from simple cooperation and respect with nobody formally "in charge".

ArmyMatt · Feb 10, 2016

gzt said:
Does God require the wife to obey the husband or not?

"Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord" (Eph 5:22). yes, I would say He does for a healthy marriage. St Paul does not phrase it like a request or suggestion.

gzt said:
If yes, what happens when the woman does not obey in the instance that the husband has made the decision?

depends on if the husband is upholding his end of things. if he is not being like Christ, and sacrificing and doing every decision out of service to her as Christ does the Church, then there is already a break. in that case, it depends on the couple and the desire for repentance on whoever is offending, which would be case by case and for a pastor to deal with (ie I dunno, and am not going to pretend that I do).

gzt said:
If the answer is "no", then there really isn't any functional difference with the sort of stance I take and I believe the OP is still confused about what the wife submitting to the husband is supposed to look like, at least, different from simple cooperation and respect with nobody formally "in charge".

I get what you are saying and it seems like you are trying to avoid slipping to a domineering husband who is an overlord of the wife (which happens way to often). but to say that the husband is not the head of the house is not backed up in Scripture. the question is how is he the head, and what does that mean for the Christian?

Orthodox view on Marriage, submission, roles, and family

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