The Rich Young Ruler and Salvation

Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

Paul writes as an answer about who God actually calls that are of the saved this.
Not many rich are called and other types of men for the reason of shaming this world as a judgement against what is desirable to men.
God's call saves those who magnify the Lord's own glory among mankind by saving what men despise and things that are weak and lowly. And also condemns the world's evil desire of lusts that fulfil their fleshly natures. Recall Eve and the apple, and also Moses rejecting the wealth and glory of Egypt to serve the people of God in the wilderness.

Recall Christ did say the meek shall inherit the earth.

1 Corinthians 2
Glory Only in the Lord
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

Fortran said:

The story of the "Rich Young Ruler" is recorded in Matthew 19, Mark 10, and Luke 18. As most of us probably already know, this is an account of a man questioning how to receive eternal life. Clearly, selling all our possessions is not the way to eternal life, but that is not my question. However, what I find notable, in light of salvation, is Jesus' words after the ruler's departure.

In Mark 10 we read:

23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

How does one logically reconcile this by salvation through faith alone? Riches and greed may prevent good works and promote selfishness, but how would they hinder faith? If believing in Jesus as Savior and Lord is the sole requirement for salvation, and I do not see this belief being hindered by wealth or greed, why, logically, would the rich have a harder time entering into Heaven than those of more modest means?

Please note, I am not trying to start a controversy. This is just a topic I find myself genuinely struggling to come to a conclusion on. Sometimes it merely seems as if the teachings by other New Testament authors, Paul in particular, do not "mesh" with the words of Jesus in regards to salvation.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Kelly

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Sure, I'll put in my two cents on this.
Belief is not faith. "Even the demons believe and they tremble." . Faith requires trust as well as belief. If one puts their trust in riches or governments or political philosophies or whatever and not in God alone then they do not have faith in God only possibly a belief. You need both belief and trust to have faith. Notice how Jesus changes the parameters to make it more understandable the second time. After the first statement the apostles, that have been brought up to believe that worldly success is a sign of God's favor, are astonished and probably chagrined to learn that even the rich do not have God's favor enough to enter the kingdom. But when Jesus makes it a statement about trust they may begin to understand that it is not the possession of riches but where one places their trust that is the obstacle to entering the kingdom. Even should one believe that God is God and that Jesus is the Messiah if one does not trust that God alone is the source of one's ultimate security or that His promises are more sure than the easily seen consequences of having riches then one lacks faith.

grasping the after wind said:

Sure, I'll put in my two cents on this.
Belief is not faith. "Even the demons believe and they tremble." . Faith requires trust as well as belief. If one puts their trust in riches or governments or political philosophies or whatever and not in God alone then they do not have faith in God only possibly a belief. You need both belief and trust to have faith. Notice how Jesus changes the parameters to make it more understandable the second time. After the first statement the apostles, that have been brought up to believe that worldly success is a sign of God's favor, are astonished and probably chagrined to learn that even the rich do not have God's favor enough to enter the kingdom. But when Jesus makes it a statement about trust they may begin to understand that it is not the possession of riches but where one places their trust that is the obstacle to entering the kingdom. Even should one believe that God is God and that Jesus is the Messiah if one does not trust that God alone is the source of one's ultimate security or that His promises are more sure than the easily seen consequences of having riches then one lacks faith.

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Unsaved rich people do trust in their riches to save them and not in God.
When God makes rich, he adds no sorrow with it. Being a part of the kingdom of God is the best gift of a rich inheritance a person can experience.

2 Corinthians 8:9
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

Grasping pretty well summed it up. There are all sorts of idols that can keep our focus from God and instead on things of the flesh. Money is an incredibly easy one. I believe that Christ makes use of it because it was very relevant to the times.

We all know the story of Christ turning over the tables, but what many do not realize is that this was not a one time event. What we have recorded is situations where that happened at least twice, and more than likely a third time (one for each year of his active ministry).

What we do not get a complete picture of in the Bible is that it was the Sanhedrin which dictated what animals were good enough for a sacrifice. They were the ones who were actually running the money changers tables, they would take the money from people who could not bring their sacrifice, and sell them one that met with the Priests approval. They would also exchange, for a fee, the animals that people brought for ones that met with the priests approvals. The love of money had infected the Temple.

We ultimately see that it is the love of money that was why the Jewish leaders sought to kill Christ. He was causing damage to their income. Anyone could have called them out for working on the Sabbath, casting the first stone, etc and they would have been able to minimalize the impact of that. But disrupting their corrupt trade at the temple, that was crossing the line.

Actually it is easy for the Camel to enter into the Eye of the Needle if some one is leading it.........Now how to find the Eye of the Needle. Jesus said to the Thief about being in Paradise that day............So did Jesus go to Heaven or go to Hell......When his spirit left the Cross. At the instant of His death..........Something was opened..........So did he go through the Temple Opening when the Temple Curtain was torn...........or did he descend to Hell....... So as a Camel, which Jesus path do you follow...............or you can just hang out by the Tomb and wait for the Second Coming. I myself........choose...
...........drum roll..........The Temple......As a former Army Scout, I am going to take the shortest route possible to the Father in Heaven.....Eye of the Needle.......easy access.

brotherjerry said:

Grasping pretty well summed it up. There are all sorts of idols that can keep our focus from God and instead on things of the flesh. Money is an incredibly easy one. I believe that Christ makes use of it because it was very relevant to the times.

We all know the story of Christ turning over the tables, but what many do not realize is that this was not a one time event. What we have recorded is situations where that happened at least twice, and more than likely a third time (one for each year of his active ministry).

What we do not get a complete picture of in the Bible is that it was the Sanhedrin which dictated what animals were good enough for a sacrifice. They were the ones who were actually running the money changers tables, they would take the money from people who could not bring their sacrifice, and sell them one that met with the Priests approval. They would also exchange, for a fee, the animals that people brought for ones that met with the priests approvals. The love of money had infected the Temple.

We ultimately see that it is the love of money that was why the Jewish leaders sought to kill Christ. He was causing damage to their income. Anyone could have called them out for working on the Sabbath, casting the first stone, etc and they would have been able to minimalize the impact of that. But disrupting their corrupt trade at the temple, that was crossing the line.

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Nope, that is just opinion.

The Scripture that Paul inspired of God wrote about those are called and why, that nails it, but see you reject that authority of the truth since you can not agree with the calling of God that results in glorification begins with God foreknowing in love those He predestined.
EVERYONE God calls in this way ends up glorified to rule and reign with Christ in the regeneration.

Scripture always nails it.

Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

sdowney717 said:

Nope, that is just opinion.

The Scripture that Paul inspired of God wrote about those are called and why, that nails it, but see you reject that authority of the truth since you can not agree with the calling of God that results in glorification begins with God foreknowing in love those He predestined.
EVERYONE God calls in this way ends up glorified to rule and reign with Christ in the regeneration.

Scripture always nails it.

Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

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I am not thinking you meant to post this here....Sdowney everything you had to say here has nothing to do with the story of the Rich Young Ruler....Either please expand upon what you said to link it into the OP...or something to let us know why you posted that here?

brotherjerry said:

I am not thinking you meant to post this here....Sdowney everything you had to say here has nothing to do with the story of the Rich Young Ruler....Either please expand upon what you said to link it into the OP...or something to let us know why you posted that here?

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My response was to you alone, not the OP.
The response I made to Fortran clearly speaks that only those called of God are saved.
And then my response to you shows why they are called by God to be saved, which is that they are elect, chosen of God, to obtain salvation in Jesus Christ. And that due to his foreknowing them in love, God has then predestined them to be the called of Jesus Christ.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

The reason we 'love' God, is that God loved us first because we are those called according to His purpose. God does NOT LOVE US because we love God. God chose to love us (the elect chosen of God to be saved people of God from the way beforehand beginning of time) with a great love and so made us alive in Christ even when we were dead in sin, by grace you have been saved. As Ephesians 2 so says about His great love that made us alive. Ask yourself then why did God not love with that same great love making all alive? That is His choice is it not to do with what He has made, as Romans 9 so says.

These 2 verses are very self explanatory
1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Propitiation means a turning away of wrath, an atonement for sin. However those who do not believe are under the wrath for God as John 3 so says, so then there sins are not atoned for.

Romans 3 teaches us this about the atoning sacrifice.
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

==========================================================================
This propitiation is by HIS BLOOD THROUGH FAITH and is ONLY for those who have faith in Christ, and is not for the unbelieving world. Can you believe that? Many do not! Many here on these forums believe the propitiation is for unbelievers, citing 1 John 2:2 , but they twist the meaning.
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19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God’s Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Boasting Excluded
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

I doubt you will like this post!

sdowney717 said:

My response was to you alone, not the OP.
The response I made to Fortran clearly speaks that only those called of God are saved.
And then my response to you shows why they are called by God to be saved, which is that they are elect, chosen of God, to obtain salvation in Jesus Christ. And that due to his foreknowing them in love, God has then predestined them to be the called of Jesus Christ.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

The reason we 'love' God, is that God loved us first because we are those called according to His purpose. God does NOT LOVE US because we love God. God chose to love us (the elect chosen of God to be saved people of God from the way beforehand beginning of time) with a great love and so made us alive in Christ even when we were dead in sin, by grace you have been saved. As Ephesians 2 so says about His great love that made us alive. Ask yourself then why did God not love with that same great love making all alive? That is His choice is it not to do with what He has made, as Romans 9 so says.

These 2 verses are very self explanatory
1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Propitiation means a turning away of wrath, an atonement for sin. However those who do not believe are under the wrath for God as John 3 so says, so then there sins are not atoned for.

Romans 3 teaches us this about the atoning sacrifice.
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

==========================================================================
This propitiation is by HIS BLOOD THROUGH FAITH and is ONLY for those who have faith in Christ, and is not for the unbelieving world. Can you believe that? Many do not! Many here on these forums believe the propitiation is for unbelievers, citing 1 John 2:2 , but they twist the meaning.
==========================================================================

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God’s Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Boasting Excluded
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

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Sdowney...please read what I am about to say...and I mean no offense by this, I just want to make sure we are not cluttering up the forums and crossing things up.
You response is in the wrong thread...you replied to me about a discussion we were having about OSAS and election that is in the OSAS thread. THIS THREAD is about the Rich Young Ruler. We are NOT having a discussion about election in this thread

So please if you do not mind...repost your response in the other thread where we are talking about these things and we can discuss further. That would be awesome.

Fortran said:

The story of the "Rich Young Ruler" is recorded in Matthew 19, Mark 10, and Luke 18. As most of us probably already know, this is an account of a man questioning how to receive eternal life. Clearly, selling all our possessions is not the way to eternal life, but that is not my question. However, what I find notable, in light of salvation, is Jesus' words after the ruler's departure.

In Mark 10 we read:

23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

How does one logically reconcile this by salvation through faith alone? Riches and greed may prevent good works and promote selfishness, but how would they hinder faith? If believing in Jesus as Savior and Lord is the sole requirement for salvation, and I do not see this belief being hindered by wealth or greed, why, logically, would the rich have a harder time entering into Heaven than those of more modest means?

Please note, I am not trying to start a controversy. This is just a topic I find myself genuinely struggling to come to a conclusion on. Sometimes it merely seems as if the teachings by other New Testament authors, Paul in particular, do not "mesh" with the words of Jesus in regards to salvation.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Kelly

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Dear Sister Kelly,

Thanks for asking an excellent question. You asked, “How does one logically reconcile this salvation through faith alone?” [end of your quote]. I struggled with this question some years ago. You are not alone. I read and re-read the Gospels trying to understand it with a “faith alone” theology. It was problem passage after problem passage.

God revealed to me that I needed to “draw out” my theology from the Bible —not be bound to a “learned” theological system. I started submitting to the Holy Spirit of God and I began to understand (I'm still learning) truth apart from the “faith alone” lens which created many “problem” passages such as the one you described.

The account of the rich young ruler is consistent with the rest of the New Testament. It identifies that real faith is not “faith alone”. Jesus said elsewhere we have to pick up our cross daily (Luke 9:24); we must renounce everything (Luke 14:33); love Him more than our spouses and children (Matthew 10:35); we cannot look back at the plow (Luke 9:62), we must “enter through the narrow gate (Matthew 7:13) and endure until the end (Matthew 24:13). And the list goes on.

“Faith alone” is actually like attempting to mix water and oil. Real Biblical faith is radical and far removed from the false gospels of today that promote of a one-time “easy” belief (imitation) where one agrees with some facts under a “faith alone” umbrella and they are instantly declared to be forever saints.

Real faith is found in many places in Scripture. In Hebrews 11 the “hall of faith” is absent the “faith alone” gospel where following Jehovah and picking up the cross is optional. In contrast, verb after verb illustrates actions that real faith produces in one’s life.

The “faith alone” gospel is found in James 2. It is declared to be dead. Real saving faith causes a believer to provide clothing and food to another brother or sister in need.

The “faith alone” saying came out of the Reformation. I’ve been unable to find it before then. Interestingly, their version (Reformers) was not what many today call “faith alone”. The writing of most Reformers from my reading was a real faith that was not isolated from action. They called it “faith alone” in response to the Catholic Church which insisted that salvation came from faith in Christ plus sacraments and good works and then one could not yet be 100% sure they were even saved!

Dear sister Kelly. Based on what you wrote you may be committing my former error of attempting to interpret Scripture under the lens of “faith alone”. This saying (“faith alone”) has different meanings to different people. But you clarified what this means when you wrote, “If believing in Jesus as Savior and Lord is the sole requirement for salvation, I do not see this belief being hindered by wealth or greed ….” [end of your partial quote]. Real faith in Jesus is obedient faith. Why? When someone truly believes in Jesus they follow His teaching because they believe in Him!

In Romans 1, while describing the Gospel, Paul called it “obedience of the faith”. Real faith is not the imitation “drive thru” of today. It continues believing because the Holy Spirit take up residence in us and is transforming us into the image of our Savior —to the glory of His grace. Here is a note pasted from my digital Bible for Romans 1:5 (obedience of the faith):

See Romans 1:8, 12, 16, 15:8, 18, 16:19, 25, Hebrews 5:9, 11:8 and Galatians 5:7, Acts 6:7, 2 Corinthians 10:4-6, for obedience. A real believer believes in Christ. Ongoing belief results in obedience. Disobedience comes from faithlessness. See Phil 1:27; Rom 2:7; 6:16; 10:6-8; 1 Tim. 1:19, etc.

Today, many sincere —yet in error teach that salvation becomes a completed action the moment one enters the family of God. A realized objective —yes. A past historical fact —yes. But not a completed action. New parents don't (shouldn't) leave their new born infants in the hospital and walk away because it's a new birth and a completed action. Just like physical birth, our spiritual birth is just the beginning! I have been unable to find one verse that makes salvation a completed action.

Because God is sovereign, He gets to define (has) the salvation package. There are many verses that declare that perseverance of the faith is required. Paul wrote: “16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes [not has believed, but “believes” today] to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it [the gospel] the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” Romans 1:16-17. Please know how the righteous are described as “shall live by faith”

Paul also wrote, “1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved [not a completed action but a present reality], if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.” 1 Corinthians 15:1-2.

Paul wrote, “21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds [true believers], 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if [conditional] indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.” Colossians 1:21-23. I used to try so hard to make this passage say what it didn't. I had to submit to the Holy Spirit and just believe what it says.

We must persevere in the faith. We can't do this on our own strength. The Comforter lives in our hearts and enables us to live for Him.

Kelly (and anyone else who read this, of course) keep looking to Jesus Christ and His Word. There are few problem passages (if any) but many problem theologies.

In testimony of the wondrous grace of Jesus Christ!

Fortran said:

The story of the "Rich Young Ruler".....How does one logically reconcile this by salvation through faith alone?

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First of all, the terms "Kingdom of God" and even "Kingdom of Heaven" do not, repeat do not, refer to a "life-after-death-in-heaven" scenario. I suspect most will disagree with me on this, but I am able to defend this position, I believe. These terms instead describe what this present world is like when God is back in charge of it.

But even if we do not agree on this, what I am about to say does not depend on whether what I have just said (above) is correct.

I politely suggest that many (most?) 21st evangelical Protestants are mistaken in believing that we do not need "good works" for ultimate salvation. Consider these words from Paul:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

So we do indeed need to "have good works" even if, repeat even if, we understand such works to really just be evidence of what is the real ground of our salvation - grace appropriated through faith.

Expose I agree with your last statement...we do need works as evidence of our salvation. But I would disagree that we need works to maintain our salvation, or to keep our salvation.

expos4ever said:

First of all, the terms "Kingdom of God" and even "Kingdom of Heaven" do not, repeat do not, refer to a "life-after-death-in-heaven" scenario. I suspect most will disagree with me on this, but I am able to defend this position, I believe. These terms instead describe what this present world is like when God is back in charge of it.

But even if we do not agree on this, what I am about to say does not depend on whether what I have just said (above) is correct.

I politely suggest that many (most?) 21st evangelical Protestants are mistaken in believing that we do not need "good works" for ultimate salvation. Consider these words from Paul:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

So we do indeed need to "have good works" even if, repeat even if, we understand such works to really just be evidence of what is the real ground of our salvation - grace appropriated through faith.

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The Kingdom of God always was, is and will be, it never ceased.
Rather than good works, more accurately this is called good fruit. Good fruit includes good works, good works are profitable to men. Good works are not profitable to God.
Titus 3
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

Good fruits are the fruits of the Holy Spirit evident in your life, against which their is no Law.

Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control.
Against such there is no law.

Jesus and John the Baptist explains by comparison that we are like trees that bear either bad fruit or good fruit.
All God's trees will bear good fruit to God, and the bad trees will bear bad fruit.
For example the wicked Pharisees- Jewish leaders appear at John's baptizing of people come to repent, and he calls them a brood of vipers-snakes, ungodly critters, who are bearing bad fruit.
Matthew 3
4 Now John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him 6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees.
Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Christ says this
Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

A bad tree can not bear good fruit!
A good tree can not bear bad fruit!

Each tree produces it's fruit according to it's nature.

God has made some trees bad, the natural man, and other trees good, the regenerated man born of God who has been inwardly transformed and they also have God and Christ living within them..

Again Matthew 12, God makes the tree either good, or bad.

33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.
34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

How do they speak?, from the abundance of their heart. Those with the old dead heart, the unsaved, speak out of the evil treasure in their hearts evil things.
While the good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things. They have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit for noble purposes.
Those who have the Holy Spirit do this here as Jesus says,

John 7
37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given,because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Against such, that is those who have the fruits of the Holy Spirit in their life, their is no Law against them.
If you don't speak forth good things out of the good treasure of your heart, then your not His, you are EVIL and not bearing good fruit, and you will burn forever in the fires of hell.

sdowney717 said:

The Kingdom of God always was, is and will be, it never ceased.

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I don't think this is what the Bible teaches:

“Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matt. 3:2)

‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel’” (Mark 1:13-14).

and especially this:

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God

How can Jesus not intend us to understand that the Kingdom of God is something that will "start" in the lifetime of some of His listeners?

...and there is much more that could be said. God has always been there, but Jesus really does initiate a certain phase of history that is unlike what was before and is called the "Kingdom of God".

expos4ever said:

I don't think this is what the Bible teaches:

“Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matt. 3:2)

‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel’” (Mark 1:13-14).

and especially this:

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God

How can Jesus not intend us to understand that the Kingdom of God is something that will "start" in the lifetime of some of His listeners?

...and there is much more that could be said. God has always been there, but Jesus really does initiate a certain phase of history that is unlike what was before and is called the "Kingdom of God".

Click to expand...

That phrase is at hand, simply means the kingdom of God has come among you.

28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
The kingdom of God has intruded or say been exposed onto the world, when Christ arrived to preach the gospel.

OT verse mentions the kingdom of God, so it predates the NT time.
2 Chronicles 13:8
And now you think to withstand the kingdom of the Lord, which is in the hand of the sons of David; and you are a great multitude, and with you are the gold calves which Jeroboam made for you as gods.

sdowney717 said:

That phrase is at hand, simply means the kingdom of God has come among you.

28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
The kingdom of God has intruded or say been exposed onto the world, when Christ arrived to preach the gospel.

OT verse mentions the kingdom of God, so it predates the NT time.
2 Chronicles 13:8
And now you think to withstand the kingdom of the Lord, which is in the hand of the sons of David; and you are a great multitude, and with you are the gold calves which Jeroboam made for you as gods.

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I politely suggest that almost all scholars are with me on this one. Do you agree that the Bible is an evolving narrative? Are you aware that the term "Messiah" means "King". Perhaps there is some scholarly disagreement but I believe the general opinion is that "Messiah" does indeed mean King.

If Jesus is indeed Messiah, it only stands to reason that with His entry into the world, His "kingdom" - the Kingdom of God - is initiated.

I do not have time to more substantially support my position right now. If time permits, I will do so later.

expos4ever said:

I politely suggest that almost all scholars are with me on this one. Do you agree that the Bible is an evolving narrative? Are you aware that the term "Messiah" means "King". Perhaps there is some scholarly disagreement but I believe the general opinion is that "Messiah" does indeed mean King.

If Jesus is indeed Messiah, it only stands to reason that with His entry into the world, His "kingdom" - the Kingdom of God - is initiated.

I do not have time to more substantially support my position right now. If time permits, I will do so later.

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Theophanies are the pre incarnate Christ appearing to men.
https://bible.org/illustration/ot-theophanies
So Christ would have entered into the world before His being born, if that makes sense to you.

Yes but Christ did not come as the Messiah in the OT.

Prior to Christ's resurrection, people who died did not go to Heaven or Hell. They went to Abraham's Bosom, waiting place for the coming of the Messiah. At which time Abraham's Bosom was done away with and eternal place was where you ended up. That is all if you were a Jew.

Jesus First said:

God revealed to me that I needed to “draw out” my theology
from the Bible — not be bound to a “learned” theological system.
... There are few problem passages (if any) but many problem theologies.

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Obviously, nothing nor no one have succeeded in brainwashing you
into walking down the broad road to hell.

Satan and men have ALWAYS been the believer's greatest enemies!
Problem is ... the believer has no clue how EASILY he/she can be deceived!
.