Does Matt 5:32 Mean I Can't Marry A Divorcee?

blackribbon said:

The future sin would be a future divorce, not a marriage.

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Are we both discussing the OP's situation?

Grafted In said:

I could not disagree more that repenting for a past sin gives one the freedom to commit a future sin. In my opinion your statement is not at all Scriptural.

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Do you feel the same about other sins that people have? Do you feel the same way about the sins that you commit? That your future should be judged by every sin you ever committed in the past?...or even in the past since you became a Christian?

Are you forever tainted if you ever had a lustful thought?

Matt 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Are you no longer marriage material for any dedicated Christian woman since you have committed an act of adultery?

blackribbon said:

Do you feel the same about other sins that people have? Do you feel the same way about the sins that you commit? That your future should be judged by every sin you ever committed in the past?...or even in the past since you became a Christian?

Are you forever tainted if you ever had a lustful thought?

Matt 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Are you no longer marriage material for any dedicated Christian woman since you have committed an act of adultery?

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Why not spend some time re-reading your post.

Grafted In said:

Are we both discussing the OP's situation?

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I am. I will not make a judgement on her because I don't know her. But I do believe that God's grace does mean that if she is truly living a life that serves God that she is not forever "tainted" by the sin of divorce....any more than the rest of us are tainted by our individual sins.

We don't stop being able to be forgiven and covered by grace once we become Christians or else I imagine we all would be in trouble. IF this man feels like he should not marry her, he shouldn't but I don't believe it should be because of his self-righteous belief that he is saving her from her potential sins.

Grafted In said:

Why not spend some time re-reading your post.

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I have spent a long time thinking about this. I have been praying about this because I once believed it. However, saying that a person is forever burdened by the weight of a sin after repentance does not match the character of Jesus. Are there other sins that are equally "permanent"?

blackribbon said:

Do you feel the same about other sins that people have? Do you feel the same way about the sins that you commit? That your future should be judged by every sin you ever committed in the past?...or even in the past since you became a Christian?

Are you forever tainted if you ever had a lustful thought?

Matt 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Are you no longer marriage material for any dedicated Christian woman since you have committed an act of adultery?

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Yes, and yes. Marriage, unlike other situations in which we can sin, is a covenant between a man, a woman, and God. This is why we are not allowed to abandon it except because of the severe violation of our vows.

And lustful thoughts do not usually lead to divorce. It is the divorce which prevents the adulterer/adulteress from remarriage. While they can receive forgiveness, forgiveness is not a green light to go out and sin again. The Bible specifically forbids fornication with, or marriage to, and adulterer/adulteress. That is in and of itself a specific sin, which is separate from the sin which caused the divorce.

football5680 said:

Marrying her would be adultery because they are still married in God's eyes so this would be forbidden.

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Is this the really the "big" sin? How did King David remain a man whom God loved? David had multiple wives...including at least one that was gained through an adulterous relationship. God loved Bathsheba enough to include her in Jesus' lineage even after all the sins that were committed even after she entered into a real adulterous relationship.

William67 said:

Yes, and yes. Marriage, unlike other situations in which we can sin, is a covenant between a man, a woman, and God. This is why we are not allowed to abandon it except because of the severe violation of our vows.

And lustful thoughts do not usually lead to divorce. It is the divorce which prevents the adulterer/adulteress from remarriage. While they can receive forgiveness, forgiveness is not a green light to go out and sin again. The Bible specifically forbids fornication with, or marriage to, and adulterer/adulteress. That is in and of itself a specific sin, which is separate from the sin which caused the divorce.

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The verse says that lustful thoughts are THE SAME as committing adultery. So if you are going to be legalistic, any man (or woman) who has looked upon a person with lustful thoughts is ALREADY an adulterer....and by your definition, not fit to be married to anyone.

Matt 5:28. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

(kind of interesting that this verse is in the very same chapter as the verse that says a divorced woman can't get married because of adultery)

blackribbon said:

I have spent a long time thinking about this. I have been praying about this because I once believed it. However, saying that a person is forever burdened by the weight of a sin after repentance does not match the character of Jesus. Are there other sins that are equally "permanent"?

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We are just simply not on the same page. I see no relevance in what you've written to the subject matter by OP.

Not saying you are wrong. I just see your posts as misdirected.

Time for me to get some sleep. I hope you won't mind picking up tomorrow where we left off because apparently I am too tired to follow your reasoning.

blackribbon said:

I have spent a long time thinking about this. I have been praying about this because I once believed it. However, saying that a person is forever burdened by the weight of a sin after repentance does not match the character of Jesus. Are there other sins that are equally "permanent"?

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It completely matches Jesus' character. Remember, the woman who was about to be stoned was forgiven by Jesus. She had been "taken in adultery", meaning caught in the very act of sex with someone other than her husband. Even though she was forgiven, Christ admonished her to "go and sin no more".

While Christ was love and forgiveness, He was also about punishment. He said that in the end many would cry out "Lord, Lord" and talk about all the works they had done in His name, but he would tell them, "Depart from, me ye workers of inequity, I never knew you".

blackribbon said:

The verse says that lustful thoughts are THE SAME as committing adultery. So if you are going to be legalistic, any man (or woman) who has looked upon a person with lustful thoughts is ALREADY an adulterer....and by your definition, not fit to be married to anyone.

Matt 5:28. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

(kind of interesting that this verse is in the very same chapter as the verse that says a divorced woman can't get married because of adultery)

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The Bible says that if you commit adultery and are divorced by your spouse, you can not remarry. There are no exceptions written in the Bible. None. It is not the sin of adultery which prohibits remarriage, it is the act of divorce. You can be forgiven the sin of adultery. But, you are still not allowed to remarry, even if you have repented and been forgiven.

If you commit the sin of adultery, even if it is only in your heart (lustful thoughts), and are not divorced, you must repent. If you are divorced because of "lustful thoughts", (guys who are hooked on internet obscenities comes to mind), and are divorced for that reason, you are not allowed to remarry. It is the same as if you actually committed the physical act of adultery.

My understanding of the OP is that the man won't marry a woman because she has been divorced.

My thought is that if she is already divorced...over and done...meaning she is not married anymore, then God's grace is big enough to cover her sins, past and present, and make her a new creature in Christ....which means everything in her past is clean including the record of being married. She is not punished by the mistakes and decisions she made in her past.

If you truly believe that she is forever handicapped by this past failure/sin, then you have to believe that all people are forever handicapped by their past. So if a man ever masturbated while thinking about a woman, he has "committed adultery" with her and is equally copable for his sins and impure state for ever considering entering into marriage with a Christian woman. He is already an "adulterer" by definition of Matt 5:28. And if adultery prevents someone from being able to have a holy Christian marriage, then he is just as forbidden from being married.

All of Matt 5 is a call by Jesus to live a pure life but I doubt that any of us can say we have lived lives that even come close to the perfection Jesus calls us to in Matt 5. I think it is sad that a person will pick one imperfection in another believer and use it as a reason to exclude them from their lives, especially if they are not living a perfect Matt 5 lives.

I do believe that if God tells you not to marry someone because of this verse, then it behooves you to listen. But until you are sinfree yourself, I suggest that you don't focus so much on a single verse to make your decision. Based on just Matt 5, the only way most of us would ever be fit for marriage (because lustful thoughts are part of a human man tainted by sin) is if we were married to each other by our parents as young children before puberty hits.

And if you want to get technical/legalistic about Matt 5:31-32, it is only aimed at the men...only men are prevented from divorcing their spouses except for reasons of sexual immorality. It doesn't address reasons why a woman can ask for a divorce or leave a marriage. I guess if the OP is genuinely concerned that he is being sinful if he marries a divorce woman because he will become an adulterer, then that is honorable...but only if he is attempting to be just as holy in all parts of his life...and embracing the purity level demanded of all of Matt 5.

I am not saying I know it all, but this is what God has laid on my heart. It is what I believe. Someday, we will all know the real heart of God but in the mean time, we have to seek for the answers that brings us with the most peace from God. I can't believe that a history of divorce means that you are no longer allowed to happy relationships with the opposite sex...that this is the mistake that can never be rectified. If we truly believed this, then we should also be demanding that every re-married couple actually divorce because they are currently in an adulterous affair that can only be sanctified by repentance and separation from the current sin.

blackribbon said:

Is this the really the "big" sin? How did King David remain a man whom God loved? David had multiple wives...including at least one that was gained through an adulterous relationship. God loved Bathsheba enough to include her in Jesus' lineage even after all the sins that were committed even after she entered into a real adulterous relationship.

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Was David not punished?

Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child who is born to you shall die. (2 Samuel 12:14)

Also this isn't really comparable to the situation which we are discussing. David committed an abhorrent act of adultery with Bathsheba but the relationship afterwards was not adultery because Uriah was unfortunately killed. His sin was committed at a certain point in time, he was punished and then he repented. God could love David because he was zealous, he recognized his sin and then he repented for it. Bathsheba's inclusion in the lineage of Jesus does not necessarily show that God loved her. I'm not saying that God doesn't love her but this reasoning is faulty because King Ahaz is also in the lineage and he promoted the worship of other Gods and there is no doubt that he is in hell. There may be other examples but this is the first one I remembered.

What we are discussing right now is not a sin committed at a single point in time, it is a perpetual sin. The sin simply begins when you say "I do" and it will not stop until you separate and acknowledge that the supposed marriage was invalid. At that point you can ask God for forgiveness and this sin can be forgiven. If you don't do this then the second after you ask God for forgiveness you already need to do it again.

I wonder if people actually realize that repentance and forgiveness are not for this world, but for the next? It does not give you "carte blanche" to repeat sin(s), ad infinitum.

The Bible specifically prohibits marriage to someone "put away" for "sexual immorality", meaning divorced because of adultery. An adulterer/adulteress can be forgiven, but that is separate from the issue of remarriage. By marrying someone who has been divorced for the cause of adultery, the divorced person commits the sin of adultery, again. And also causes the person they marry to commit the sin of adultery, too.

William67 said:

The Bible says that if you commit adultery and are divorced by your spouse, you can not remarry. There are no exceptions written in the Bible. None. It is not the sin of adultery which prohibits remarriage, it is the act of divorce. You can be forgiven the sin of adultery. But, you are still not allowed to remarry, even if you have repented and been forgiven.

If you commit the sin of adultery, even if it is only in your heart (lustful thoughts), and are not divorced, you must repent. If you are divorced because of "lustful thoughts", (guys who are hooked on internet obscenities comes to mind), and are divorced for that reason, you are not allowed to remarry. It is the same as if you actually committed the physical act of adultery.

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So the sin is divorce and not adultery? So that makes divorce is the unforgivable sin? I simply don't agree.

And I personally believe that "lustful thoughts" are just that...even fleeting sexual thoughts about a person you are not married to. It does not even say that the person having those thoughts has to be married...it says "anyone" so I'd propose that this applies to a 16 year old in his bedroom, or the young man thinking sexual thoughts about the woman sitting across the classroom, as well as the married man watching internet inappropriate content.

Matt 5 sets some very high standards including never violating any of the commandments given by God. Do you really practice and think about the 4th commandment as much as you worry and think about the 7th?

We are not going to agree on this topic, that is clear. I just am including my thoughts on the OP's post.

No, the sin is adultery, which can be forgiven, but divorce specifically prohibits remarriage. If the adulterer/adulteress remarries, they commit the sin of adultery again, and also cause their new "spouse" to sin as well.

Again, it is the divorce which prohibits remarriage.

Having lustful thoughts, if you are married, about another person= adultery.

Having lustful thoughts about someone when you are not married= fornication.

As Christians, we are not bound under the Law. But, just because we are not bound under the Law, does not mean that carnal sins are no longer sins. We are not bound by ceremonial restrictions, eating pork, shellfish, wearing mixed fibers, etc. But, murder is still murder, adultery is still adultery, fornication is still fornication, coveting is still coveting, lying is still lying, etc.

Grafted In said:

I fail to see the notion that a bishop, or anyone other than Christ has the authority to overrule Scriptural Truth. And He would not do so....ever.

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The Orthodox allow the remarriage of persons, in contrast to the Roman Catholics, with the exception of clerics, who cannot divorce and remarry or marry a divorcee. One can of course question the merits of this and even debate it in a forum like General Theology, however that is not a debate I would be likely to participate in.

The specific praxis is generally that an Orthodox Christian can be remarried up to two times, however, it should be noted that only valid reasons for divorce, like infidelity, are accepted. The marriage liturgy is also different in the case of a remarriage, having a more penitential context. This is in recognition of the words of our Lord that adultery has occurred.

By Gary M. Burge, professor of New Testament at Wheaton College and Graduate School in Christianity Today

Many today have misread this particular passage to make two statements: (1) One cannot divorce his wife unless she has been unfaithful; (2) Whoever remarries commits adultery. But this is not the meaning. The active verb here is "commits adultery," and the entire sentence must be held together. It should be read, "Whoever does the following commits adultery: divorces his wife (except for immorality) and remarries another." Judgment is being placed not on someone remarrying but on someone remarrying after pursuing an illegitimate divorce. If the divorce is invalid, so is the remarriage. But the reverse is also true: if the divorce is valid, then re marriage must be acceptable, just as it was in commonplace Jewish custom.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/1999/october4/9tb082.html?start=2

blackribbon said:

My thought is that if she is already divorced...over and done...meaning she is not married anymore, then God's grace is big enough to cover her sins, past and present, and make her a new creature in Christ....which means everything in her past is clean including the record of being married. She is not punished by the mistakes and decisions she made in her past.

If you truly believe that she is forever handicapped by this past failure/sin, then you have to believe that all people are forever handicapped by their past. So if a man ever masturbated while thinking about a woman, he has "committed adultery" with her and is equally copable for his sins and impure state for ever considering entering into marriage with a Christian woman.

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Indeed. What's the point of believing in God's forgiveness if its power is so limited? It seems rather blasphemous to say that the sin is greater than him.

All this hand-wringing over marrying divorcées
potentially raises the question of what one is
doing already, just by being a Christian.

Why?

Because, as I stated previously, God Himself is a
divorcée (Jeremiah 3:6-9).

On top of that, if Jesus is God, as many would insist,
then Jesus is that aforementioned divorcée.

Yet anyone claiming to be Christian has no problem
being part of his “bride”, the “Bride of Christ” (some
members of which are male, by the way, which rocks
that other boat regarding SSM ), who (have I mentioned
this yet? ), is a divorcée.

An inconvenient concept, perhaps, but thereya
havvit.

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