Trouble in the Church

This is new to me. I grew up in churches where one pastor can use a number of versions. We don't make a big deal out of it. After all everyone uses their own favourite version. I don't think I'm being of much help here but please forgive me because I fail to understand this kind of problem

DukeJohn said:

I need some Advice about some trouble going on in my church, i dont even know where to begin...

In 2011, (a year after the church started in 2010) everything was fine, slowly growing, used the KJV and everything you expect a baptist church to have.

But later in 2013, we had an associate pastor join the 'staff', (kinda unnecessary, there was only about 30/50 regular attenders).

Then early 2015, maybe march a youth pastor joined the church (he used the ESV), fresh outta bible college. then about June, the church made a switch to the English Standard Verison, without a vote of any kind. it was kind of a unanimous decision by the pastor and elders. and no one was made aware at all, just one sunday i noticed it wasn't King James anymore. and it is very upsettingm say what you want about it, I believe the ESV is, almost Sugar coated, I don't feel the presence of the Lord in the church anymore, it's almost like someone took the bible, soaked it in water and rolled it around in sugar. now, I've heard it all, that its just what the 'majority' of the "copies" of the original scriptures said and its the most "accurate". but what the Majority says is not 'always' right. and its just like the church has fallen apart, the pastor does not believe that its wrong, (and there is a possibility isn't wrong, but if that were the case, why would I just suddenly stop feeling the presence of God in the church?) I mean at LEAST they should've had a vote of some sort. I believe its the right of the members of the church to decide what Version of scripture they are to be preached to from, not the Pastors.
The pastor refuses to listen and just gets agitated when you confront him about it, and i know some members that are ready to leave over this.
what am I, or the church members to do about this?

EDIT:
Don't get me wrong the pastor is a nice guy, he is a good christian.
but he just doesn't wanna argue about it.

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sign..

honestly, I have seen much worse.

I recently been slandered against in one of the church I have attended

I have been bullied in the past by pastors who think they can use they strong will to bull doze people over

I have been looked upon like a loser by congregations.

the list just goes on and on.

your pastor is a nice guy?

cut him some slack

anyway, my question is does your church have a procedure in place in terms of how decisions are made within the church?

if not, find a way to get people together to discuss appropriate procedures

in the mean time, call a church meeting and let your pastor know firmly but lovingly that majority of the church feel this way?

First I would say you need to realise that feelings can be deceptive. You also have a responsibility to worship God no matter what. What you do outside of church is the main concern. So if you are reading the bible and praising God and living the way he wants you to. Church really should be just a small part of it. The preaching at the church should also be a small part of life at church. Fellowship and looking after the needs of each other should be the main focus.

I would perhaps write to the pastor and explain how you feel. Make sure you do not use any language that might be seen as attacking anyone. So don't say anything that might suggest it is the youth pastors fault. Just say you and others are upset that there was no consultation and would appreciate being heard.

Anyone who considers leaving a church over which translation is used needs to get their priorities right. I really wanted to leave a church once because the worship style did not suit. Yet God firmly told me to stay. The reason became clear later on.

DukeJohn, welcome to the forums. I would pray and asks Yahweh what He wanted me to do - go or stay.

DukeJohn said:

I need some Advice about some trouble going on in my church, i dont even know where to begin...

In 2011, (a year after the church started in 2010) everything was fine, slowly growing, used the KJV and everything you expect a baptist church to have.

But later in 2013, we had an associate pastor join the 'staff', (kinda unnecessary, there was only about 30/50 regular attenders).

Then early 2015, maybe march a youth pastor joined the church (he used the ESV), fresh outta bible college. then about June, the church made a switch to the English Standard Verison, without a vote of any kind. it was kind of a unanimous decision by the pastor and elders. and no one was made aware at all, just one sunday i noticed it wasn't King James anymore. and it is very upsettingm say what you want about it, I believe the ESV is, almost Sugar coated, I don't feel the presence of the Lord in the church anymore, it's almost like someone took the bible, soaked it in water and rolled it around in sugar. now, I've heard it all, that its just what the 'majority' of the "copies" of the original scriptures said and its the most "accurate". but what the Majority says is not 'always' right. and its just like the church has fallen apart, the pastor does not believe that its wrong, (and there is a possibility isn't wrong, but if that were the case, why would I just suddenly stop feeling the presence of God in the church?) I mean at LEAST they should've had a vote of some sort. I believe its the right of the members of the church to decide what Version of scripture they are to be preached to from, not the Pastors.
The pastor refuses to listen and just gets agitated when you confront him about it, and i know some members that are ready to leave over this.
what am I, or the church members to do about this?

EDIT:
Don't get me wrong the pastor is a nice guy, he is a good christian.
but he just doesn't wanna argue about it.

Click to expand...

FWIW, I am in your corner on this one. I might not say the same with every issue that could arise in any given church, but this one I think goes beyond the "pastor's preference" level.

It sounds like you'll either have to find a way, according to the church's constitution, to call a meeting in which the whole congregation can vote on whatever business is brought before it, or else wait until the annual meeting--if you have that, like many churches do--when it's in order to take up whatever new business is presented. Failing that, there may be another congregation available to you that operates in a more democratic way than this one does.

I don't think its too good that the church decided to change the translation without explaining in advance to the parishioners. If you Pastor is a nice chap, try talking to them and enquire as to what has prompted the transition, perhaps its something out of their control?
If you get nowhere, perhaps another church may be best but always ask first if you like the church.

I hesitate to post this, but I feel it must be said...

My cousins attended a KJV only church their entire lives, which I've had occasion to visit on a number of occasions.

The preacher was good. The people all spoke spiritual talk. There was a nice feeling of familiarity and friendliness about the place. They had their missionary team halfway around the world that they supported.

But as I grew older, I realized that, as far as the community was concerned, the church might as well not even be there. They continued every Sunday with their KJV is the holiest literature. They all attended the same Christian school which the church and their parents supported. Many of the children even had jobs inside that same Christian school. But none of them had an impact in their community. The vast majority of the community didn't even know most of them existed, let alone they were Christians.

A friend of mine had a similar experience in a KJV only church. He went to a small group where people were brainstorming ideas on how they could come into contact with unbelievers more often.

The church that I currently go to uses primarily the ESV. This is translated from the same documents used to translate the KJV. The only difference is that the language used is that of the current English vernacular, and not the Middle English language that is no longer part of our daily conversation.

This church has seen several converts over the last few years. They are actively involved in the community, to the point that the entire community knows who they are and that there are always people there willing to give time and resources to help those in need - all in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. They not only support missionaries, but have sent missionaries to places including closed Muslim countries, South America, Europe, and parts of Africa.

Now, I'm not saying that it's the version of the Bible that makes the difference - but when one starts to hold one version as the only right one to use, there's a point at which that version becomes an idol. And the more focused a church becomes on an idol, even if they believe it's a holy one, the more they lose sight of actually following the teachings of Christ.

To me, the point is more about making a major change without first consulting the congregation and determining what they want. That's not a good model of leadership from a biblical perspective.

There's been no indication that DukeJohn's church is a 'KJV Only' congregation.

I have attended one of this KJV-only churches a few times. I do find them a bit...militant about it.
I love the KJV. But I don't go to that church. I go to a baptist church that often uses the CEV. It does not really matter to me, I still read from the KJV and don't use any other translation for myself. I don't try and make the pastor preach from KJV.

For a church that is used to KJV all the time I think maybe it could be hard to adjust so, maybe just share your concern but don't stop reading your KJV if its the one you used to.

I think this issue is more about what is going on with the leadership than about the bible text... A good leader should consult with the group of people he/she has been given to lead when making a decision such as this, as it seems like a big decision, and if no one was notified and everyone found out as a surprise at the last minute, that does not sound like good leadership at all. Prayer is most certainly key as we are to do all things with prayer. If the leader will not listen to the people that he/she has been appointed to lead, then what is the point of that leadership? I can understand people being upset about this decision being made without their notice, but I don't think that anyone should leave over this issue as their first response. The first response should be prayer and asking God to lead and show you all what to do, as it is God Himself who put your congregation together, not a pastor. May God give you the wisdom to walk in the way that He will show you in response to your prayers!

DukeJohn, my feeling is that the choice of a local congregation should be based largely, if not entirely, upon how well it accomplishes its purpose--and the way you are receiving the word of God, either effectively or OTOH ineffectively, is important.

The problem is that people sometimes fall into a mindset that says (or other people have instilled it in them) that to change congregations is somehow to be faithless to God. It's not!

If nothing can be done about the matter we're discussing, or if the majority of the congregants don't agree with you, don't damage your own worship experience by falsely thinking you owe something that you don't owe.

BrianKay said:

This is new to me. I grew up in churches where one pastor can use a number of versions. We don't make a big deal out of it. After all everyone uses their own favourite version. I don't think I'm being of much help here but please forgive me because I fail to understand this kind of problem

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Same here, I'm a very straight person. I believe it's a lot of fuss about nothing. It is very hard to hold churches together these days and to jeopardise the running of the church over this matter is a real shame. I used to take two or three versions to church and read them all

If your pastor isn't literate in Greek at the least and hopefully Hebrew, he isn't reading from the original text anyway. .. it doesn't matter what translation(s) he is using. If he is literate in original languages & checks his sermon against original text, his sermons are probably accurate and it doesn't matter what English translation he uses. Rightness and wrongness have everything to do with literacy in original languages and not a thing to do with English translations

Within reason, shouldn't a pastor be able to choose the version of scripture they preach from? Does such attitudes and behavior make God look great and worthy of worship? Is it right to stake a leave-the-church position on using a Bible version? We live in a lost and dying world, but you choose to hurt the bride of Christ over using the KJV? It's like crewmen arguing over the arrangement of deck chairs while the ship is sinking. It's shameful the way it makes our Lord look petty to those outside.

With all due respect, I do not see a valid reason to leave your church. First, nothing is stopping you from bringing the KJV to church and using it. In fact, this might be a good idea - you can then see how the ESV and KJV actually compare. I would also recommend an ESV/KJV parallel Bible.

I am by no means trying to start a controversy, but I think it is unwise to "cling" to a certain English translation. None of them are entirely accurate. I like the KJV, but it is not perfect. If the KJV, was, in fact, the only "true" translation outside of the original text, what about all those who do not speak English? What about those who do not even have a Bible or cannot read? Does God's presence not exist there?

Please be wary of "feelings"; they are so deceptive. These should not cause you to leave a church. However, do not get me wrong - I am not saying you should necessarily stay either. If you feel this change truly reflects a bigger issue such as a major change in doctrine or a lack of care for the opinions of the "flock", then I would encourage you to at least talk to the pastor about or perhaps look for another church.

it's almost like someone took the bible, soaked it in water and rolled it around in sugar.

Please try to refrain from using terminology or manner so to speak as stated in your comment above in reference to the holy scriptures, the word of GOD and the holy bible as stated above. Very inappropriate in reference to the premier leading written principles of the true faith in GOD the heavenly father and his son lord JESUS.

BTW my preference is for KJV as well.

I recommend some heavy prayer for discernment and the TRUTH; which is JESUS the son of GOD for direction and what is underlying and at the root of your concern, to discover if your concern is legitimate or some other source is influencing your reaction.

Praise be to GOD the heavenly father and his son lord JESUS CHRIST forever>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

DukeJohn said:

Then early 2015, maybe march a youth pastor joined the church (he used the ESV)

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Maybe this is why the switch was made. Young people need to understand for themselves what they are reading and hearing. That is best done with modern English, not outdated English. There are adults who think that when the scripture says 'replenish the earth' that it means 'to fill it up again'. It doesn't in old English. This has lead to some strange doctrines.

DukeJohn said:

just one sunday i noticed it wasn't King James anymore. and it is very upsettingm say what you want about it, I believe the ESV is, almost Sugar coated, I don't feel the presence of the Lord in the church anymore, it's almost like someone took the bible, soaked it in water and rolled it around in sugar. now, I've heard it all, that its just what the 'majority' of the "copies" of the original scriptures said and its the most "accurate". but what the Majority says is not 'always' right.

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Can you quote and compare a scripture written in the KJV to the ESV that do not say the same thing?
I personally use the YLT and the KJV but have used the ESV on occasion when discussing scripture with someone who uses it, and I have never come across a scripture that had a different meaning.

Albion said:

There's been no indication that DukeJohn's church is a 'KJV Only' congregation.

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correct but they did pretty much take a KJV only stance. That they have changed to one translations only also indicates they used one translation previously.

TheDag said:

correct but they did pretty much take a KJV only stance. That they have changed to one translations only also indicates they used one translation previously.

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Wait a minute. Where does anyone get the idea that "they did pretty much take a KJV only stance?" That's not been said.

And, BTW, my own Anglican church and parish use the KJV exclusively because we prefer it, but we are certainly not adherents of the "KJV Only" POV concerning the Scriptures.

We translated it; it's the most familiar and famous and widely-used of all translations; it's the most beautiful and inspirational of all translations; our prayerbook is based upon its wording; and we like it.

That sounds very much like what we were told in the OP about this other congregation and about the poster's feelings concerning the various translations that are available for use.