Pre-Trib Only When the rapture!

Psalm3704 said:

Lamad, yesterday (read below) you said the holy spirit was given when Jesus was in the throne room after He ascended. Today you claim Jesus is with them when they received the holy spirit.

Your rebuttals are not consistent bro, another

lamad!
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You simply amaze me with your lack of knowledge on these things. Did you not know that Jesus ascended into heaven, sent the Holy Spirit down, but then WENT BACK DOWN Himself many times to be SEEN by the disciples?

By the way, I DID NOT SAY THAT: John said it.
Jesus said HE would Send the Holy Spirit down as soon as He ascended, and John shows it happening. As usual, the failing is all on YOUR side due to your lack of knowledge of these things.

Psalm3704 said:

Lamad, has it ever dawned on you there is more writings about Christians in the new testament than there are about the antichrist?

The word OVERCOME applies to Christians. Christians are to overcome the world, not conquer it.

The word CONQUER applies to the antichrist. The antichrist conquers the world, not overcome it.

That's why you see the word overcome 24x and the word conquer only 2x.

Do you understand what overcome means in the bible? I guess not if you think it means the same as conquer. All those verses you pulled out of context about overcome are for and about the church, not the antichrist. Jesus told us, US...US...US...the church to overcome the world, not the antichrist.

Here's an example of how little you know based on a verse you pulled out of context with Revelation 3:21. If Christ was telling the antichrist to conquer/overcome the world....which he will, you actually think the antichrist will also be allowed to sit with Christ in heaven? ROFL! lamad, you're killing me, I'm laughing to death!

Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

You have one serious comprehension deficiency and absolutely have no idea the things you read. Btw, another epic fail.


You'll probably get it after me having to show you this 99 more times. But for now it's obviously going over your head.

Ever wonder why all the seals are not written in chapter 6 of Revelations and the 7th seals is in Revelation chapter 8, a chapter of it's own? Why is that lamad, why is the 7th seal not in the same chapter as the other seals?I'm sure it's going over your head right now.

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It is amazing how you fight tooth and nail to hold onto false doctrine! Why go to such effort to hold onto deception?

Romans 8:37
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

WAKE UP and realize you are on the wrong side here. You are fighting to hold on to deception. Believers certainly conquer. We are told over and over to conquer our FLESH so we can walk in the Spirit.

It went right over your head that the GREEK word that was translated as conquer at the first seal, was translated as OVERCOME many more times, and SHOULD HAVE BEEN there too.

All those verses you pulled out of context about overcome are for and about the church, not the antichrist.

WAKE UP! That is just one reason why the first seal is telling us about the CHURCH sent out to spread the gospel. WE OVERCOME!

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

All believers have in this respect OVERCOME the world: they have become born again - born of the Holy Spirit and became children of the Most High God. However, overcome can also mean conquer:
Luke 11:22
But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
NET Bible
But when a stronger man attacks and conquers him, he takes away the first man's armor on which the man relied and divides up his plunder.
By the way, overcome in Dictionary.com
verb (used with object), overcame, overcome, overcoming.
1. to get the better of in a struggle or conflict; conquer; defeat:

When these to verses are put together, of course the meaning is very singular: ONLY those who are BORN OF GOD will get to see down with the Father on the throne.

Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

WAKE UP! This was HIS command: " Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." This command would prove to be difficult and would require many to give their lives. Did you ever read the book, "Through Gates of Splendor" and "End of the Spear?" Missionaries are often killed. Spreading the gospel has required both overcoming AND conquering.

You really are grasping at straws trying to hold onto deception. JUST LET IT GO! All the proof of the first seal, when left in its context, is about the CHURCH sent out as soon as they received the might baptism with the Holy Spirit. Jesus opened this seal as soon as He ascended back into heaven and took the book from the Father.

I guess when John was writing, he got to the bottom of a parchment writing about the 6th seal, and had to start at the 7th seal on a new parchment!

It should be obvious, but I am quite sure you will miss it. God could not, (and will not when the time comes) open the 7th seal that begins the 70th week of Daniel, until two things are accomplished.

(Imagine a long play such as the Nutcracker, and they close to curtains to end an act. They must REARRANGE THE SET before the curtain is opened again so the new setting will fit the coming act.)

God will "rearrange the set" so that it will be ready for the new act: the sounding of the trumpets with His wrath. These two events will be to see the BRIDE of Christ safely in heaven, out of the wrath of God, and the sealing of the 144,000 for their protection during the trumpet judgments. You simply amaze me! You THINK you know, when in fact, you don't.

Psalm3704 said:

You have absolutely no idea how clueless you are. Jesus already told us in the Olivet Discourse what the seals are. Jesus told the disciples of the signs to watch in the birth pangs to occur before His return for the church. He gave the prophecy here in Matthew 24. He opened and gives the signs in the seals. And Jesus will prove you wrong.

Matthew 24:3-8
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.​

He "recently" started opening the Seals and gives us the signs mentioned in the Olivet Discourse.

Parallel scriptures.

Revelation 6:1-2
Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

Matthew 24:4-5
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

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Revelation 6:3-4
3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see. 4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.

Matthew 24:6-7a
6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

***************************
Revelation 6:5-6
5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.”

Matthew 24:7b-8
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.


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Revelation 6:7-8
7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Matthew 24:8-10
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.

***************************

Bottom line on the 1st Seal, it's not the church. It's the deceiver of all deceivers: the antichrist.








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I agree... the first seal is not the church but the rise of the final antichrist

dfw69 said:

I agree... the first seal is not the church but the rise of the final antichrist

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Thank you! It's like pulling tooth talking to lamad.








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iamlamad said:

You simply amaze me with your lack of knowledge on these things. Did you not know that Jesus ascended into heaven, sent the Holy Spirit down, but then WENT BACK DOWN Himself many times to be SEEN by the disciples?

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Lamad think Jesus returned many times after ascending to heaven. Multiple returns in the first century!

ROFL lamad, are you for real dude or are you just trying to be funny? And I thought it was only the old testament part of the bible you had problems learning. Wrong order of event too.

Here's the correct order:

iamlamad said:

By the way, I DID NOT SAY THAT: John said it.
Jesus said HE would Send the Holy Spirit down as soon as He ascended, and John shows it happening. As usual, the failing is all on YOUR side due to your lack of knowledge of these things.

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Oh stop being such a wuss, none of us said anything written in the bible either but if you quote a scripture, you're implying it too as if you were saying it. Stand behind the scriptures you quote for once and stop accusing others being in error, especially the apostle John.

Jesus did not say He would send the holy spirit the moment He arrive in heaven. This was what He said in John 16:7.


And what John said in John 20:22, Jesus has not ascended yet. Jesus ascended to heaven in Acts 1, He has not return yet. Stand up to your errors lamad and stop making excuses to cover up your mistakes, it makes you sound more like a noob, than a newb.










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iamlamad said:

It is amazing how you fight tooth and nail to hold onto false doctrine! Why go to such effort to hold onto deception?

Romans 8:37
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

WAKE UP and realize you are on the wrong side here. You are fighting to hold on to deception. Believers certainly conquer. We are told over and over to conquer our FLESH so we can walk in the Spirit.

It went right over your head that the GREEK word that was translated as conquer at the first seal, was translated as OVERCOME many more times, and SHOULD HAVE BEEN there too.

All those verses you pulled out of context about overcome are for and about the church, not the antichrist.

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lamad, Romans 8:37 said we are more than conquerors. It does not say we are conquerors.

That kinda went over your head didn't it?

Yeah and I'm the one pulling verses out of context. (sarcastically)







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Psalm3704 said:

Thank you! It's like pulling tooth talking to lamad.








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Lol I've been there before...with many on this forum

Many Christians believe that the first seal is the rise of the final antichrist..So we are not alone

But I've pondered why some believe the church conquering is the first seal ...and it may in fact be a false church that will back up the antichrist with his version of the gospel....another gospel will conquer in.the last days ....know what I mean?

That a false church will pave the way for the antichrist to conquer with a version of the gospel that is another gospel as Paul puts it in Galatians....a gospel with the law attached to it

If you been long enough on this forum I think you will come across those that teach the law is a part of the original gospel which is false and not the true gospel that is apart from the law as Paul teaches

dfw69 said:

I agree... the first seal is not the church but the rise of the final antichrist

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Anyone can make any theory sound right if they pull verses out of context. The first seal is in the context of chapters 4 & 5. When we study these carefully, we see that John saw, in vision form, the very moment Jesus ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down. God did this to show TIMING. It was when Jesus got the scroll with the seals into His hands and began breaking them.

If you can find 2000 years hidden in any of these verses, PLEASE show us! They are not there. It is written to show us that the first seal was broken just as soon as Jesus ascended and got the scroll from the Father.

This is what is written in black and white to prove the first seal was broken about 32 AD.

Can you find ANY scriptural support for this seal still not broken?

Psalm3704 said:

Thank you! It's like pulling tooth talking to lamad.

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A simple reason: it is not truth. I have chapters 4 & 5 backing up the truth - that the first seal was broken as soon as Jesus arrived back in heaven. You have nothing but human reasoning.

Psalm3704 said:

BREAKING NEWS!!!​

Lamad think Jesus returned many times after ascending to heaven. Multiple returns in the first century!

ROFL lamad, are you for real dude or are you just trying to be funny? And I thought it was only the old testament part of the bible you had problems learning. Wrong order of event too.

Here's the correct order:

John 20:1
Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.

John 20:16
Jesus said to her, “Mary!”
She turned and said to Him, “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).

John 20:17
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

John 20:18
Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things to her.

John 20:19
Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

In all of John 21, Jesus spends time with the disciples. Jesus finally ascends into heaven in Acts 1. Holy Spirit finally came in Acts 2.

Acts 1:9-11
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Acts 2:1-4
When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.​

Oh stop being such a wuss, none of us said anything written in the bible either but if you quote a scripture, you're implying it too as if you were saying it. Stand behind the scriptures you quote for once and stop accusing others being in error, especially the apostle John.

Jesus did not say He would send the holy spirit the moment He arrive in heaven. This was what He said in John 16:7.

John 16:7 KJV
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.​

And what John said in John 20:22, Jesus has not ascended yet. Jesus ascended to heaven in Acts 1, He has not return yet. Stand up to your errors lamad and stop making excuses to cover up your mistakes, it makes you sound more like a noob, than a newb.

Short Answer: There is strong evidence from Scripture that they actually received the Spirit at Pentecost, and that what we see in John 20:22 was Jesus giving them a visual illustration and command in preparation for that event.
http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/241/is-jesus-giving-the-spirit-in-john-2022​

Extra-Biblical and post-Biblical Jewish texts
The Talmud refers to Shavuot as Atzeret (Hebrew: עצרת, literally, "refraining" or "holding back"), referring to the prohibition against work on this holiday and to the conclusion of the holiday and season of Passover. Since Shavuot occurs 49 days after the first day of Passover (i.e, the 50th day, including Passover itself), Hellenistic Jews gave it the name Pentecost.(πεντηκοστή, "fiftieth day").​

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Mark 16
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Here is a sequence:
1. He appeared to Mary just before He ascended - as said not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended.
2. He appeared to the other women Matthew 28:8 They TOUCHED Him, so at this time He had ascended the 1st time.
3. The appeared to the two men on the road. (Verse 12 above)
4. He appeared to Peter alone (Luke 24:34)
5. He appeared to ten when Thomas was not among them. It would be 8 more days before Thomas saw Him. (Luk 24:36 & John 20:26)
6. He appeared to them in Galilee
7. He appeared to 7 at the sea. (John 21:1-14)
8. He appeared to the 11 as seen in verse 14 above (8 days later).
9. He was seen by James (1 Cor. 15:7)

It is VERY likely that they touched Jesus in almost all of these meetings, and it is recorded that they did in some - yet Jesus told Mary NOT to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. Jesus FIRST priority after Mary was to take His blood to the mercy seat IN HEAVEN.

"this probably Mary Magdalene's mind was intent upon when she fell at his feet and would have embraced them. But he, "I must first ascend to my Father before I can bestow those things upon you which I have promised: do not therefore touch me and detain me upon any expectation of that kind; but wait for my ascension rather; and go and tell the same things to my brethren for their encouragement." (John Lightfoot Commentary)

" Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended." Most certainly this gives the impression that HE MUST ASCEND quickly.

Scofield Reference notes: (one of three explanations given)
" That Jesus speaks to Mary as the High Priest fulfilling the day of atonement (Le 16). Having accomplished the sacrifice, He was on His way to present the sacred blood in heaven, and that, between the meeting with Mary in the garden and the meeting of Matthew 28:9. He had so ascended and returned: a view in harmony with types. "

Note: many people disagree with this theory. John did not mention it when he saw Jesus appear in the throne room (Rev, 4 & 5)

Pulpit Commentary
"... supposition be made, as by Baur, Bush, Sears, and many others, that our Lord was just on the point of ascending to heaven, i.e. of one (nay, the first) of his many ascensions to the Father, after which the touching, in the sense either of worship or of verification, would be possible and rightful..."

It appears that Jesus was about to ascend, told Mary not to touch him, for He had not yet ascended;
THEN He ascended as John saw Him in Rev. 4 & 5, then returned to meet with the other ladies.

There is at least two possibilities: He disappeared (but was still around) in-between each appearance..
Or else just as He said, HE ascended to heaven, then came back down to meet with the other ladies, and with the two on the road. Did He ascend back to heaven during those 8 days? I think He did. You may think He just disappeared.

Finally, it really does not matter....it is not a critical point. He did ascended later, in front of many and they two angels said He would return just as He left.

Psalm3704 said:

lamad, Romans 8:37 said we are more than conquerors. It does not say we are conquerors.

That kinda went over your head didn't it?

Yeah and I'm the one pulling verses out of context. (sarcastically)
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WAKE UP and learn English!

New American Standard Bible
But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

dfw69 said:

Lol I've been there before...with many on this forum

Many Christians believe that the first seal is the rise of the final antichrist..So we are not alone

But I've pondered why some believe the church conquering is the first seal ...and it may in fact be a false church that will back up the antichrist with his version of the gospel....another gospel will conquer in.the last days ....know what I mean?

That a false church will pave the way for the antichrist to conquer with a version of the gospel that is another gospel as Paul puts it in Galatians....a gospel with the law attached to it

If you been long enough on this forum I think you will come across those that teach the law is a part of the original gospel which is false and not the true gospel that is apart from the law as Paul teaches

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Surely you have pondered the fact that this was written close to 2000 years ago? What did those first century believers think about the first seals?

Since chapter 1 was about things while John was alive, and chapter 21 about things far into our future, we know that somewhere in-between is where we are now. Many have just assumed that we are between chapter 3 and chapter 4. That was ONLY an assumption with no scripture to back it. Rev. 4: 1 was JOHN called up - so that too was an event of AD 95 or so.

John then saw a vision. A vision can be past, present or future, or all of the above. We determine that this was a vision of the past (history to John in 95 AD) because it shows a time before Jesus rose and then the moment He ascended into heaven. Unless one pulls the first seal out of its context, AD 32 IS the context.

iamlamad said:

Anyone can make any theory sound right if they pull verses out of context. The first seal is in the context of chapters 4 & 5. When we study these carefully, we see that John saw, in vision form, the very moment Jesus ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down. God did this to show TIMING. It was when Jesus got the scroll with the seals into His hands and began breaking them.

If you can find 2000 years hidden in any of these verses, PLEASE show us! They are not there. It is written to show us that the first seal was broken just as soon as Jesus ascended and got the scroll from the Father.

This is what is written in black and white to prove the first seal was broken about 32 AD.

Can you find ANY scriptural support for this seal still not broken?

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Where does scripture support seals broken?

How many seals you believe has been broken ..?

iamlamad said:

Surely you have pondered the fact that this was written close to 2000 years ago? What did those first century believers think about the first seals?

Since chapter 1 was about things while John was alive, and chapter 21 about things far into our future, we know that somewhere in-between is where we are now. Many have just assumed that we are between chapter 3 and chapter 4. That was ONLY an assumption with no scripture to back it. Rev. 4: 1 was JOHN called up - so that too was an event of AD 95 or so.

John then saw a vision. A vision can be past, present or future, or all of the above. We determine that this was a vision of the past (history to John in 95 AD) because it shows a time before Jesus rose and then the moment He ascended into heaven. Unless one pulls the first seal out of its context, AD 32 IS the context.

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I believe that assumption that the seals are not yet opened ..do you believe only the first seal is opened?

dfw69 said:

Where does scripture support seals broken?

How many seals you believe has been broken ..?

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As I already said, chapters 4 & 5. In this vision John saw the moment Jesus ascended to the throne room. That would be right after He told Mary not to touch him. The moment He arrived the Holy Spirit was sent down, This sets the timing around 32 or 33 AD.

The first hint of a long wait is at the 5th seal - the martyrs of the church age: they are told thy most wait for very last church age martyr - which is another way of saying they most wait for the pretrib rapture that will end the church age.

We are now and have been waiting since 32 AD for the 6th seal and beginning of the Day of the Lord.

So we are between the 5th and 6th seal.

dfw69 said:

I believe that assumption that the seals are not yet opened ..do you believe only the first seal is opened?

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Answered above.

iamlamad said:

As I already said, chapters 4 & 5. In this vision John saw the moment Jesus ascended to the throne room.

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that's an assumption because there is no mention of his ascending to the throne room ..

John was on earth when Jesus ascended he was one of them to receive the holy spirit ...so your saying then he is seeing the past ...yet the bible speaks of 3 times...what he sees is one time...the things which are is another moment in time and the things which will be hereafter another moment in time

just before John ascends to heaven he was told to write down things that he currently sees which is the vision of Jesus as a God....then the things which are referring to the 7 churches ...then the things which will be hereafter Ie the future ...Not the past...so after writing about the things he sees and the things which are he is told to come to heaven...and in heaven he will see the things of the future ...the hereafter...that is my understand king of the scriptures....

That would be right after He told Mary not to touch him. The moment He arrived the Holy Spirit was sent down, This sets the timing around 32 or 33 AD.

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Jesus went up around this time yes..

John wrote his revelation around 96 ad yes? So he must have seen the throne room.that took place in the past...but scripture does not say that he saw the things which were...but things after the things which are ie current time...in other words no.mention of a past revelation as you say bro

The first hint of a long wait is at the 5th seal - the martyrs of the church age: they are told thy most wait for very last church age martyr - which is another way of saying they most wait for the pretrib rapture that will end the church age.

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No.hint at all

he could be referring to a future martyrs who are awaiting justice for those who condemned them.....and notice they are told to rest a little season....if the seal was opened since the beginning of Christians persecution in 33 ad it has not been a little season ...but is in fact a 2000 or so year season and counting

We are now and have been waiting since 32 AD for the 6th seal and beginning of the Day of the Lord.

So we are between the 5th and 6th seal.

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...I hope my points can convince you otherwise... peace

iamlamad said:

Mark 16
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Here is a sequence:
1. He appeared to Mary just before He ascended - as said not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended.
2. He appeared to the other women Matthew 28:8 They TOUCHED Him, so at this time He had ascended the 1st time.
3. The appeared to the two men on the road. (Verse 12 above)
4. He appeared to Peter alone (Luke 24:34)
5. He appeared to ten when Thomas was not among them. It would be 8 more days before Thomas saw Him. (Luk 24:36 & John 20:26)
6. He appeared to them in Galilee
7. He appeared to 7 at the sea. (John 21:1-14)
8. He appeared to the 11 as seen in verse 14 above (8 days later).
9. He was seen by James (1 Cor. 15:7)

It is VERY likely that they touched Jesus in almost all of these meetings, and it is recorded that they did in some - yet Jesus told Mary NOT to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. Jesus FIRST priority after Mary was to take His blood to the mercy seat IN HEAVEN.

"this probably Mary Magdalene's mind was intent upon when she fell at his feet and would have embraced them. But he, "I must first ascend to my Father before I can bestow those things upon you which I have promised: do not therefore touch me and detain me upon any expectation of that kind; but wait for my ascension rather; and go and tell the same things to my brethren for their encouragement." (John Lightfoot Commentary)

" Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended." Most certainly this gives the impression that HE MUST ASCEND quickly.

Scofield Reference notes: (one of three explanations given)
" That Jesus speaks to Mary as the High Priest fulfilling the day of atonement (Le 16). Having accomplished the sacrifice, He was on His way to present the sacred blood in heaven, and that, between the meeting with Mary in the garden and the meeting of Matthew 28:9. He had so ascended and returned: a view in harmony with types. "

Note: many people disagree with this theory. John did not mention it when he saw Jesus appear in the throne room (Rev, 4 & 5)

Pulpit Commentary
"... supposition be made, as by Baur, Bush, Sears, and many others, that our Lord was just on the point of ascending to heaven, i.e. of one (nay, the first) of his many ascensions to the Father, after which the touching, in the sense either of worship or of verification, would be possible and rightful..."

It appears that Jesus was about to ascend, told Mary not to touch him, for He had not yet ascended;
THEN He ascended as John saw Him in Rev. 4 & 5, then returned to meet with the other ladies.

There is at least two possibilities: He disappeared (but was still around) in-between each appearance..
Or else just as He said, HE ascended to heaven, then came back down to meet with the other ladies, and with the two on the road. Did He ascend back to heaven during those 8 days? I think He did. You may think He just disappeared.

Finally, it really does not matter....it is not a critical point. He did ascended later, in front of many and they two angels said He would return just as He left.

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There are other interpretations of that day that say Mary did touch him or hugs him when she saw him and Jesus simply told her to.let go.because he was ascending ....

Why and how was his blood carried to heaven and for what purpose...is not his fulfillment of the law and death and resurrection enough ?....where is the mention of his blood being transported to heaven?

Salvation came through the shedding of his blood ie death for mankind not by placing blood on the mercy seat in heaven ....no.mention of that at all ....


Hebrew 9:12
He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

This does not teach that Jesus carried his blood to heaven but it does teach that sacrifice ie law rituals did not cause Jesus to enter heaven but the shedding of his blood was he was able to enter as a man changed into the glory of God

..Not that we too must shed our blood ...nor the blood of lambs ...He is our sacrifice...once and for all

dfw69 said:

that's an assumption because there is no mention of his ascending to the throne room ..

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Did you miss Chapter 5:6 ?
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Please take note that this "lamb having been slain" JUST ARRIVED: He was not there an instant before.

dfw69 said:

John was on earth when Jesus ascended he was one of them to receive the holy spirit ...so your saying then he is seeing the past ...yet the bible speaks of 3 times...what he sees is one time...the things which are is another moment in time and the things which will be hereafter another moment in time

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You missed something: "Write the things which thou hast seen..." This is past tense. Anyway, after it was done, but before John began to write, everything in the vision was a "hast seen."

dfw69 said:

just before John ascends to heaven he was told to write down things that he currently sees which is the vision of Jesus as a God....then the things which are referring to the 7 churches ...then the things which will be hereafter Ie the future ...Not the past...so after writing about the things he sees and the things which are he is told to come to heaven...and in heaven he will see the things of the future ...the hereafter...that is my understand king of the scriptures....

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I know many people think everything from 4:1 on must be future. I challenge you to find "ONLY" in this verse:
Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
There is no "only" things which must be hereafter...

If God had shown John two or three things that were "hereafter" and finished His book with recipes of mana, this verse would still be true.

dfw69 said:

Jesus went up around this time yes..

John wrote his revelation around 96 ad yes? So he must have seen the throne room.that took place in the past...but scripture does not say that he saw the things which were...but things after the things which are ie current time...in other words no.mention of a past revelation as you say bro

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I agree, around 95 AD. So things about Jesus BIRTH would be history to John. See Rev. 12:1-5 These verses are about Jesus BIRTH. Remember, there is no "ONLY".

dfw69 said:

No.hint at all

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No, you just MISSED the hint!
"...it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season..."

There is no such wording about time in the first 4 seals. We find this only at the 5th seal. And it IS a hint of a long wait. We can see it as a long wait, but they could not....they had no idea the church age would go for 2000 years. By the way, 2000 years IS "a little season" to God.
They wanted to know when their murders would be judged. Looking back over the church age, we understand it as "the age of grace," where judgment has to wait. We begin to see judgment beginning at the 6th seal.

dfw69 said:

he could be referring to a future martyrs who are awaiting justice for those who condemned them.....and notice they are told to rest a little season....if the seal was opened since the beginning of Christians persecution in 33 ad it has not been a little season ...but is in fact a 2000 or so year season and counting

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On the other hand, if these were 70th week martyrs as many think, they would KNOW they had only 7 years to wait, and would not have even asked. Consider Stephen who was one of the first martyrs: he would have no idea how long the church age would be. I can easily imagine those early martyrs wondering how long. I cannot imagine the first martyr of the 70th week wondering. They would already know. And remember, it was "the last days" when Jesus was teaching.

Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Keep in mind that John was VERY chronological in this book. He will not get to the "Day of the Lord" until the 6th seal and not get to the 70th week until the 7th seal. And finally, will not get to the days of great tribulation (where millions will die as martyrs) until chapter 15. These seen under the altar at the 5th seal are church age martyrs simply because that is where John is at this time in his narrative.

dfw69 said:

...I hope my points can convince you otherwise... peace

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I hesitate to answer, because this is very personal and many will just make fun of it. The truth is, you are missing far more than you realize.

DId you notice, the Beast was not introduced to John until chapter 13, and the dragon not until chapter 12? Anyone can make any verse say almost anything by pulling it out of context. We MUST remember, the first seal has a CONTEXT: it is the vision of the throne room.

I bugged God about this vision A LOT. I wanted to know why we needed to know that John wept, and why he wept much. Is that essential information? I did not see it as such! it seemed nonsensical almost. Why did God include it? I wanted to know, so I kept bugging God about it. I learned long ago, if someone is persistent and hour after hour, day after day bugs God about something, He will ALWAYS answer. And He answered me. First He said, "it shows timing." I searched and meditated and read this passage maybe a hundred times: I could see timing NOWHERE - so I kept bugging Him. Then HE said "it also shows the movement of time." Again I could not see the movement of time either, so I kept right on bugging Him.

Finally He showed mercy to my slow mind, and said: I am going to ask you three questions about this vision of the throne room: until you can answer them correctly you will NEVER understand this vision. (I heard His voice and His words) So He proceeded to ask me three questions.

1. Why was I not seen at the right hand of the Father in the first part of this vision? There are many verses that say I went to be at the right hand of the Father. (Stephen saw him there about 60 years previous.)

2. Why was the Holy Spirit seen IN the throne room, when I said that I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?

3. Why was "no man found" in the search for one worthy to open the seals? if you read ahead, you see that I was found worthy, but here "no man was found." John wrote that the search ended in failure, and that is why he wept much.

I could not answer His three questions after weeks of meditating, and one day He spoke again and said, "go study chapter 12." As soon as I got my bible turned to chapter 12, He summarized that chapter to me: "This was me introducing John to the dragon..." Among other things He said about that chapter, He said, "count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns." If I remember right, I counted 32 times. During His explanation, He mentioned that the first five verses of chapter 12 were a "history lesson" to John, speaking of the time of His birth. Finally, after I understand the first five verses was about His birth, He said, "now you can go back to chapters 4 & 5."

Suddenly all was different! I had "history lesson" in the back of my mind, and suddenly I had the answer to all three questions! John was looking into the throne room of the past, looking back to a time just before Jesus rose from the dead. Why was HE not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father? Very simple, He was still on earth or under the earth. Why was the Holy Spirit still there? Very simple; Jesus had not yet ascended. Why was "no man found?" Very simple: Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to be found as the Redeemer.

Remember the "movement of time?" Suddenly John is told that someone had been found. We can understand by this, as soon as one search finished, another was started, but John did not watch this second search, for he was weeping much. But as soon as John was told this, SUDDENLY someone new entered the throne room - someone who had not been there in chapter 4: It was the "lamb having been slain." You see, John got to see the very moment Jesus first ascended into the throne room, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. If you will notice, the moment Jesus arrived in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down.

ALL this is the context of the first seal - and was written to show us the TIMING of the first seal. It was when Jesus ascended into heaven, about 32 AD.

This is a very personal story. Many will simply not believe it, because God has never spoken to them. However, it is written, "my sheep here my voice." It is NOT unusual to hear His voice, it is unusual NOT to hear His voice. God TAUGHT this vision to me, line upon line, and I got it. I am as sure of this as Paul was about His gospel. Both came through revelation.

dfw69 said:

Lol I've been there before...with many on this forum

Many Christians believe that the first seal is the rise of the final antichrist..So we are not alone

But I've pondered why some believe the church conquering is the first seal ...and it may in fact be a false church that will back up the antichrist with his version of the gospel....another gospel will conquer in.the last days ....know what I mean?

That a false church will pave the way for the antichrist to conquer with a version of the gospel that is another gospel as Paul puts it in Galatians....a gospel with the law attached to it

If you been long enough on this forum I think you will come across those that teach the law is a part of the original gospel which is false and not the true gospel that is apart from the law as Paul teaches

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Yes I agree, it's overwhelming the number of scholars and Christian believe the 1st seal is the antichrist, a few think it's Christ but no one thinks it's the church nor was it opened in 32 AD....well maybe one lone ranger.









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