Warning verses to the churches about losing eternal life
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nobdysfool
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You were the one who bragged about how much you bring to insulting people. I only called you out on it. Man up and admit it.
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LOL. I wasn't bragging about anything. But, you confirm well exactly what I was warning about.
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Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
Congratulations gentlemen.
We were successfully (IMO) refuting the false teaching of Zachary and EmSw.
Many of the very people who were so successfully refuting the premise of the OP have managed to derail their success by starting a food fight among themselves concerning limited atonement and election.
It is doubtful that we can ever successfully return to refuting the dangerous works oriented doctrine espoused in the OP.
Again, congratulations to those who believe in eternal security and the sufficiency of Christ's finished work for shooting yourselves in the foot.
We were successfully (IMO) refuting the false teaching of Zachary and EmSw.
Many of the very people who were so successfully refuting the premise of the OP have managed to derail their success by starting a food fight among themselves concerning limited atonement and election.
It is doubtful that we can ever successfully return to refuting the dangerous works oriented doctrine espoused in the OP.
Again, congratulations to those who believe in eternal security and the sufficiency of Christ's finished work for shooting yourselves in the foot.
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My apologies on my part. I thought that by pointing out that there was an uncalled for insult would have resulted in repentance, not further entrenchment.
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EmSw
White Horse Rider
Congratulations gentlemen.
We were successfully (IMO) refuting the false teaching of Zachary and EmSw.
Many of the very people who were so successfully refuting the premise of the OP have managed to derail their success by starting a food fight among themselves concerning limited atonement and election.
It is doubtful that we can ever successfully return to refuting the dangerous works oriented doctrine espoused in the OP.
Again, congratulations to those who believe in eternal security and the sufficiency of Christ's finished work for shooting yourselves in the foot.
Marvin, I know when I give passages which confirm my belief, it is hard to digest. Man can go the way which seems right to him. I notice you did not respond to my last post to you.
I will ask you, if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness, does that which is lawful and right, will he have life? This is a very simple question which can be answered from God's own word and truth. This can be foolishness to those who deny such a truth. But, I will ask you to see where you stand. If asking such a question is false teaching, then how can one take God's truth and believe it? Does man take it upon himself to decide what is false? Does God's word have any bearing on those who decide what is false?
Will man stand before and tell Him His truths are false teachings?
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Nobody.
Please cite some support for the idea that God must do a work in a person's heart befor they can love God?
See God has already done what needs to be done. He sacrificed His Son to pay for the penalty of sin for us. All we have to do is accept that. You can question, how do we know that. And that is where not only other believers come in, but also God's Word comes in. God has preserved His Word through the ages, better than any other document in history. And God has tasked believers like you and I to take that Word and spread it around the world. You and I doing what God has asked us to do is the work of God that you claim to need.
As to your second point. I agree...God's desire is for all men to be saved. The Bible clearly states that. And it is obvious that man is not coming to God. If you believe that God is a perfect God, then the fact that more people are not saved is obviously not God's fault. So if it is not God's fault, then whose fault could it be. It has to be our fault. The other side of the salvation equation. And it is because we have free will to decide to follow God or not is why God's desire is not coming to fruition. However, the Bible also tells us that God knew that too. The gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are a few who find it. (Matthew 7:14)
Please cite some support for the idea that God must do a work in a person's heart befor they can love God?
See God has already done what needs to be done. He sacrificed His Son to pay for the penalty of sin for us. All we have to do is accept that. You can question, how do we know that. And that is where not only other believers come in, but also God's Word comes in. God has preserved His Word through the ages, better than any other document in history. And God has tasked believers like you and I to take that Word and spread it around the world. You and I doing what God has asked us to do is the work of God that you claim to need.
As to your second point. I agree...God's desire is for all men to be saved. The Bible clearly states that. And it is obvious that man is not coming to God. If you believe that God is a perfect God, then the fact that more people are not saved is obviously not God's fault. So if it is not God's fault, then whose fault could it be. It has to be our fault. The other side of the salvation equation. And it is because we have free will to decide to follow God or not is why God's desire is not coming to fruition. However, the Bible also tells us that God knew that too. The gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are a few who find it. (Matthew 7:14)
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Charis
Unconditional Election is a Calvinist doctrine. One of the 5 pillars. To quote another person who pretty much summed it up in one sentence "Unconditional Election is the belief that God, with no regard to the will of man, made an eternal choice of certain persons unto eternal life and some to eternal damnation and that number is so fixed that it cannot be changed."
This sort of "election" removes free will, negates the idea of even needing the Bible for anything and is a mockery of Christ and the actions God has taken.
Reformation doctrine is rooted in this but toned down and adjusted so it does not make such an outright lie of the Bible. It reminds of how people want to get their ears tickled.
But the reformed doctrines as well have problems. The idea of unconditional election fails on a logical conclusion on top of Biblical conclusion. In the Reformed world the unconditional election means that God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God's soveriegn decision to save whomever He is pleased to save.
The unconditional part obviously only apply to what we can do...because being pleasing to God in order to be saved is a condition.
There is the doctrine of Conditional Election that relies on the idea of only God's soverignty. That God has seen through the ages of who would or would not accept savlation and has elected them to be saved. Here God dispenses his electing grace on the basis of the condition of the human accepting salvation.
No matter how you slice it. The Bible teaches often to go to the sinners and spread the Word. It does not say to go to the elect. The Bible does say that God is not the author of confusion. So by reformed doctrine, a sinner in the Bible could be one of two people...an elect who does not know it yet, or a sinner who is going to hell no matter what happens.
Now based on the doctrine of election even if someone has faith they will not be saved, unless they are the elect. So it is entirely possible and very likely that people will have faith but are not elected and thus be in eternal damnation.
Hebrews 11:1 lets us know what faith is
Faith is the ASSURANCE of things hoped for, the CONVICTION of things not seen.
And we are given the great examples of faith.
By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice...
By faith Noah..in reverence prepared an ark...
By faith Abraham...obeyed by going tout...
Time and time again we see faith as the reason for the action. And we see that faith is ASSURANCE of things hoped for...what is the things hoped for? it is the promise of eternal life that is spoken of time and time again.
The idea that a person can have faith but is not elect, and that God would not uphold His promise of eternal salvation as outlined in the Bible repeatedly. Makes God out to be a liar. And is not any god that man should follow.
And if your response is that the person would be one of the elect...how would you know? How would anyone know since the Bible does not say you have not only have faith, but be elect? And if there is no choice in being elected and thus saved, then there is no free will which again is not a Biblical teaching.
There is a reason that the Bible speaks volumes of Jesus coming to the sinners...and not the "elect"...and that is because there is no elect as it is taught in the reformed doctrines. They have misunderstood the Scripture and built a salvation doctrine around it that is outside of the clear text of the Bible. Salvation doctrines are the worst that there can be, just like the works based doctrines of salvation. Because they lead people away and present an image of God that is simply not existant in the Bible.
For God so loved the world...not just the select few. I would pray that you come to understand that it is God's eternal love that He Sacrificed Jesus to pay the sin offering for the entire world. Sinners and saints alike. Jews and gentiles. The penalty of sin is death, and Christ paid that death. God has not changed from the alpha to the omega. To receive God took faith for Abraham, Noah, Moses, and the rest of the Old Testament saints, and it remains the same today for you or for me. You can be secure in your salvation, not because someone said you were elected, but because the Bible says so in 1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life"
If it is not written in the Word...it ain't a doctrine to hold dear too. And sorry my friend, election is not a doctrine that is clearly spelled out in the Bible and it required you claim things not present, contradict clearer verses, and simply make God out to be a liar or one who does not keep His promises.
Unconditional Election is a Calvinist doctrine. One of the 5 pillars. To quote another person who pretty much summed it up in one sentence "Unconditional Election is the belief that God, with no regard to the will of man, made an eternal choice of certain persons unto eternal life and some to eternal damnation and that number is so fixed that it cannot be changed."
This sort of "election" removes free will, negates the idea of even needing the Bible for anything and is a mockery of Christ and the actions God has taken.
Reformation doctrine is rooted in this but toned down and adjusted so it does not make such an outright lie of the Bible. It reminds of how people want to get their ears tickled.
But the reformed doctrines as well have problems. The idea of unconditional election fails on a logical conclusion on top of Biblical conclusion. In the Reformed world the unconditional election means that God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God's soveriegn decision to save whomever He is pleased to save.
The unconditional part obviously only apply to what we can do...because being pleasing to God in order to be saved is a condition.
There is the doctrine of Conditional Election that relies on the idea of only God's soverignty. That God has seen through the ages of who would or would not accept savlation and has elected them to be saved. Here God dispenses his electing grace on the basis of the condition of the human accepting salvation.
No matter how you slice it. The Bible teaches often to go to the sinners and spread the Word. It does not say to go to the elect. The Bible does say that God is not the author of confusion. So by reformed doctrine, a sinner in the Bible could be one of two people...an elect who does not know it yet, or a sinner who is going to hell no matter what happens.
Now based on the doctrine of election even if someone has faith they will not be saved, unless they are the elect. So it is entirely possible and very likely that people will have faith but are not elected and thus be in eternal damnation.
Hebrews 11:1 lets us know what faith is
Faith is the ASSURANCE of things hoped for, the CONVICTION of things not seen.
And we are given the great examples of faith.
By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice...
By faith Noah..in reverence prepared an ark...
By faith Abraham...obeyed by going tout...
Time and time again we see faith as the reason for the action. And we see that faith is ASSURANCE of things hoped for...what is the things hoped for? it is the promise of eternal life that is spoken of time and time again.
The idea that a person can have faith but is not elect, and that God would not uphold His promise of eternal salvation as outlined in the Bible repeatedly. Makes God out to be a liar. And is not any god that man should follow.
And if your response is that the person would be one of the elect...how would you know? How would anyone know since the Bible does not say you have not only have faith, but be elect? And if there is no choice in being elected and thus saved, then there is no free will which again is not a Biblical teaching.
There is a reason that the Bible speaks volumes of Jesus coming to the sinners...and not the "elect"...and that is because there is no elect as it is taught in the reformed doctrines. They have misunderstood the Scripture and built a salvation doctrine around it that is outside of the clear text of the Bible. Salvation doctrines are the worst that there can be, just like the works based doctrines of salvation. Because they lead people away and present an image of God that is simply not existant in the Bible.
For God so loved the world...not just the select few. I would pray that you come to understand that it is God's eternal love that He Sacrificed Jesus to pay the sin offering for the entire world. Sinners and saints alike. Jews and gentiles. The penalty of sin is death, and Christ paid that death. God has not changed from the alpha to the omega. To receive God took faith for Abraham, Noah, Moses, and the rest of the Old Testament saints, and it remains the same today for you or for me. You can be secure in your salvation, not because someone said you were elected, but because the Bible says so in 1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life"
If it is not written in the Word...it ain't a doctrine to hold dear too. And sorry my friend, election is not a doctrine that is clearly spelled out in the Bible and it required you claim things not present, contradict clearer verses, and simply make God out to be a liar or one who does not keep His promises.
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Considering you have not posted any....kinda not something I can do. But please feel free to express your views and support it through the Bible. I would be remiss to say however, that if this needs to be discussed in a different thread then lead the way. This thread is about salvation lost. And while I have been just as guilty about hijacking this thread I try and reign myself in at times to correct for that. Your call however.
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Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
I am not a Calvinist in the most common sense of the word.
But I do know that you are ill informed on Calvinist doctrine.
You are not alone in this. But you do say some things here that are even farther from their doctrine than are those usually voiced by anti-Calvinists here in this forum.
May I suggest you visit the "ask a Calvinist" section under Reformed theology in this forum and ASK rather than tell Calvinists what they believe.
That will keep you from misstating their positions in the future.
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Ah... I don't know how to resolve this debate for each of us speaks from a different perspective. Let's see...
1. Can someone who has professed to believe in Jesus Christ be lost?
2. Can someone who has preached Christ, and led others to faith be lost?
3. Can someone who has confessed, been baptized, and lived an exemplary life of faith be lost?
4. Can you emphatically deny Christ and still be saved because you once confessed him and professed the doctrines of OSAS?
The point is, if one who is saved cannot be lost, when and how do we know anyone is saved? What must I do to be saved? While I believe you will confirm that I am saved and cannot be lost. Should I later dispossess Christ and openly deny him you will say I was never saved in the first place. At which point did you lie to me?
Faith must have a practical application or it is of little value to me.
1. Can someone who has professed to believe in Jesus Christ be lost?
2. Can someone who has preached Christ, and led others to faith be lost?
3. Can someone who has confessed, been baptized, and lived an exemplary life of faith be lost?
4. Can you emphatically deny Christ and still be saved because you once confessed him and professed the doctrines of OSAS?
The point is, if one who is saved cannot be lost, when and how do we know anyone is saved? What must I do to be saved? While I believe you will confirm that I am saved and cannot be lost. Should I later dispossess Christ and openly deny him you will say I was never saved in the first place. At which point did you lie to me?
Faith must have a practical application or it is of little value to me.
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Just WHAT is your problem? ... From the OP ...
Warnings about LOSING eternal LIFE
• Not enduring in the faith (remaining faithful) until death …
Rom 11:20-22, 1 Cor 15:1-2, 2 Cor 13:5, 1 Tim 4:16,
Heb 2:1-4, Heb 3:6, Heb 3:12-14, Heb 10:36-39, 1 Pet 1:5-9,
and Rev 2:10-11 (the crown of life refers to eternal life: 1 Cor 9:24-27, 1 Pet 5:1-4)
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FreeGrace2
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Interesting. Not even one of these verses SAYS that one can lose eternal life.
Esp since Paul defined justification and eternal life as gifts of God in Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17 and 6:23, and then wrote that the gifts of God are IRREVOCABLE in Rom 11:29. Hm. No wonder there are no veses that SAY that one can lose eternal life.
In addition, consider these related verses about the sealing with the Holy Spirit.
Eph 1;13,14 - 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel ofyour salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Those who believe have been sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, which is a PROMISE or PLEDGE with a view to redemption of the believer.
Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
If grieving (through sin) the Holy Spirit breaks this seal, why isn't there any verse in Scripture that says so? And notice that the believer has been sealed, and what for: the day of redemption. There is no teaching in Scripture about anyone being able to break this seal.
2 Cor 1:22 - who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
2 Cor 5:5 - Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
All these verses about the sealing with the Holy Spirit and that it is a promise or pledge for redemption of the believer proves eternal security.
So, not only is eternal life an irrevocable gift, the believer has been sealed with the Holy Spirit OF PROMISE, for the day of redemption.
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Llewelyn. Not as simple as yes or no.
Salvation is a transformation. There are many that walk the walk...talk the talk...smell like a duck, act like a duck, but are turkeys. The Bible tells us that only God knows what is in a persons heart, only God knows if a person is saved or not. So if I tell you that you are saved, or you are not saved...don't believe me...I don't know and am speaking from an ignorant position.
That is why God has provided us with the Word. 1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Charis kai Dunamis
χάρις καὶ δύναμις
Have you even been reading my posts? Haven't posted any?
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Okay, I'll bite ... take your favorite one (from the list)
and explain why it does NOT warn of losing salvation.
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