Saul of Tarsus

BelieveTheWord · Oct 12, 2015

BukiRob said:
Who are you replying to? It doesnt make sense as a post alone

I quoted Shimshon saying only some of the Egytians were "called" to leave idolatrous paganism. Do you have him on ignore?

BukiRob · Oct 12, 2015

BelieveTheWord said:
I quoted Shimshon saying only some of the Egytians were "called" to leave idolatrous paganism. Do you have him on ignore?

ahh that would explain it then...

BukiRob · Oct 12, 2015

pinacled said:
Adonai's terms..
Attention to details?

I didnt understand the second sentence.

Some will try to cite a noahide law for gentiles though there is zero scriptural support or evidence for such a thing

Lulav · Oct 12, 2015

BelieveTheWord said:
I quoted Shimshon saying only some of the Egytians were "called" to leave idolatrous paganism. Do you have him on ignore?

But the erroneous part there is that they were Egyptians when went out with Israel. It specifies a mixed multitude and a quick study of Egyptian history will show that there were other slaves from other nations that Egypt 'detained'.

Steve Petersen · Oct 12, 2015

BukiRob said:
Some will try to cite a noahide law for gentiles though there is zero scriptural support or evidence for such a thing

God did give some laws to Noah in Genesis.

BukiRob · Oct 12, 2015

Steve Petersen said:
God did give some laws to Noah in Genesis.

Yes, after the flood.

Lulav · Oct 12, 2015

BukiRob said:
Yes, after the flood.

Oh many before too.

Build ye an ark (full instructions followed)
father food for your family and animals
Gather pairs of unclean animals and 7 pairs of clean animals

Go into the ark

6:22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.
7:5 And Noah did all that the Lord commanded him.
7:16The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah.

ContraMundum · Oct 12, 2015

Lulav said:
Well thought out response CM, thank you!

Now my take from this. I understand your overall view of Gentiles who are attracted to MJ. That may be the case in the RW but here on this forum I don't see the same dynamic. These forums are not sattellite areas for the different denominations of the 'Christian world' they are unique in that the core members in each forum go beyond the congregation and the overall feel good everybody agree mentality. Most of the denominations contain those who have been raised in same denomination with a minority of those who have 'changed teams' finding a place that better suits them. However MJ is different as the Gentiles have not only been called out from their denomination but to not go where they want but rather to where they feel lead to belong.

It is the same on both sides for a Jew to become a believer feeling ostracized by friends, family, congregants and feeling lost in the Gentile Christian world. Some place where their people's writings are used but you feel like an outsider.

For a Gentile to be called to the Jewish world it is the same. Family, friends, people from your 'old' church all make them feel ostracized as well.

We need to erase all that. What would it be like if a Jew were to hear about Messiah, secretly read the NT and become a believer and walk into a church thinking that is where Messiahs people worship him only to be told that they don't belong there, that Jesus isn't for them because they killed Jesus and lost their blessings and now it belongs to the 'church' of the gentiles, alone?

See it goes both ways and we need to start at the base line.

Think about this, technically we would have not had a Messiah come 2,000 years ago if it were not for the persistence of one Gentile woman who married a Jewish man and even after his death believed with all her heart that she had become one with him and his people were her people and his G-d was now her G-d and she would not return to her former life with her former people and former gods but would go with his mother to return to her people and was taken in marriage once again into the family.

I really don't believe those who come here are looking for the something new, the something unique thing to do spiritually by playing Jewish. True I've seen many in a MJ congregation do that but I haven't seen the core members here do so. Those who are mainly in the MJ congregations and are gentile are majorly Orpah's (Oprah got her name from her and she is the same, looking for the newest thing but never devoting herself to one true thing)and they eventually return to their people, (churches) finding the 'Jewish ways' not so fun.

You yourself know that it ain't easy and who in their right mind would want it? so much baggage, we got it! But when G-d calls he does for a reason and take us out of our comfort zone big time!

I don't think it's so much about an identity as a Jew they want, but as a child of G-d that loves their father and wants to please him. Sure some go overboard with the whole outside veneer, tallit, kippot, tzitzit, yiddish, etc, but just like going to another country you want to fit in a bit, learn the language, the customs, the foods, etc. It's our humanness our way of wanting to belong.

I hope this made sense, I'm just waking up but I wanted to reply to your well thought out and bare bones honest but caring post.

Thank you brother!

All good points. So much there. In one sense, when I became a Christian I believed in my heart that all things must be new. That includes shedding some Jewish baggage that I had. No church told me that. In fact, the church has told me otherwise- don't walk away from what it good in your tradition. Occasionally you meet some person who thinks the church is really a rejection of everything else but that's not often. It's not hard to talk them around either.

I noted a few posts ago in another thread that the Rabbis were upset because people were leaving them and following Yeshua (Jn 12:10, 11). Leaving. "Deserting" in some translations. Turning their backs on the Pharisees. New start. This made me re-think that becoming a Christian/Messianic is something that requires new starts, fresh perspectives and a new way of life. So, in some regards from a Jewish perspective certain things need to be shed.

From a Gentile perspective I really can't speak. I realize that everyone is different.

Perhaps God's ultimate wisdom is that He takes people from all places and ways of life and makes them into One New Man. What that actually looks like and what impact it has on identity is the real question. One needs to leave a lot behind to follow this path. I think that idea that to find one's identity in the Messiah and not in Jewishness, religious observance or nationality is the great challenge of the Messianic and the Gentile Christian alike. While language, tradition, theology and culture will always be important and should be steadfastly adhered to for all peoples, we should shun placing our identity in them. Everyone does it. Go over to OBOB or TAW and watch the nationalism and denominationalism that people place their identity solidly into. It's the same here. "My identity is what I do and what I think". This is an error. Gal 3 stuff.

BelieveTheWord · Oct 12, 2015

Lulav said:
But the erroneous part there is that they were Egyptians when went out with Israel. It specifies a mixed multitude and a quick study of Egyptian history will show that there were other slaves from other nations that Egypt 'detained'.

Good point. Thanks

BelieveTheWord · Oct 12, 2015

Steve Petersen said:
God did give some laws to Noah in Genesis.

The part with "zero scriptural support" is the notion that God only requires Gentiles to to adhere to Noahide or the 7 universal laws. To return to the OP there is also no support for the notion the Paul's letters are the laws for Gentiles. Paul never endorses the Noahide idea, nor does he state that he is delivering Yah's Torah that we see in Jer 31. Even for those who believe such a thing, we see in Ephesians and "1" Corinthians that Paul has written previous letters that we are missing. We also see him relying on the recipients to recall what he preached to them in order for his letter to make sense. Our information is quite incomplete, and if anyone is being honest (not many) they will admit we can't possibly understand everything in Paul's letters.

However Yeshua made it clear that the greatest in the Kingdom will obey the Torah and teach others to do the same. That provides us with a nice foundation.

Truthfrees · Oct 13, 2015

BelieveTheWord said:
The part with "zero scriptural support" is the notion that God only requires Gentiles to to adhere to Noahide or the 7 universal laws. To return to the OP there is also no support for the notion the Paul's letters are the laws for Gentiles. Paul never endorses the Noahide idea, nor does he state that he is delivering Yah's Torah that we see in Jer 31. Even for those who believe such a thing, we see in Ephesians and "1" Corinthians that Paul has written previous letters that we are missing. We also see him relying on the recipients to recall what he preached to them in order for his letter to make sense. Our information is quite incomplete, and if anyone is being honest (not many) they will admit we can't possibly understand everything in Paul's letters.

However Yeshua made it clear that the greatest in the Kingdom will obey the Torah and teach others to do the same. That provides us with a nice foundation.

Can you clarify what you mean by the 2nd half of this sentence: "Paul never endorses the Noahide idea, nor does he state that he is delivering Yah's Torah that we see in Jer 31."

If Yah's Torah is in Jeremiah 31:33, it's also in Hebrews 10:16 and Hebrews 8:10.

Are you saying Paul IS teaching Torah in his teachings?

BukiRob · Oct 13, 2015

Lulav said:
Oh many before too.

Build ye an ark (full instructions followed)
father food for your family and animals
Gather pairs of unclean animals and 7 pairs of clean animals

Go into the ark

6:22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.
7:5 And Noah did all that the Lord commanded him.
7:16The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah.

I dont consider that as answering the question I perceive I was asked.

BukiRob · Oct 13, 2015

BelieveTheWord said:
The part with "zero scriptural support" is the notion that God only requires Gentiles to to adhere to Noahide or the 7 universal laws. To return to the OP there is also no support for the notion the Paul's letters are the laws for Gentiles. Paul never endorses the Noahide idea, nor does he state that he is delivering Yah's Torah that we see in Jer 31. Even for those who believe such a thing, we see in Ephesians and "1" Corinthians that Paul has written previous letters that we are missing. We also see him relying on the recipients to recall what he preached to them in order for his letter to make sense. Our information is quite incomplete, and if anyone is being honest (not many) they will admit we can't possibly understand everything in Paul's letters.

However Yeshua made it clear that the greatest in the Kingdom will obey the Torah and teach others to do the same. That provides us with a nice foundation.

We are in fact told:" as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction."
2 Peter 3:16
This fact however does not slow down most people....

They also ignore 1st John where it is IMO unmistakably clear that we are to keep Torah....

Soyeong · Oct 13, 2015

ContraMundum said:
Fantastic question.

My point of view is rather scandalous (and perhaps hurtful) to some though. Gentiles who seem to want to attach themselves to or adopt the Jewish identity already see themselves as second class citizens- otherwise they wouldn't be self-hating Gentiles. With all the beauty, talent, energy, success and treasures in the Gentile world- why would they want to be like Jews?

There's really a psychology of identity to contend with here. Viktor Frankl was onto it- "Man's Search for Meaning".

He said: "Everyone has his own specific vocation or mission in life; everyone must carry out a concrete assignment that demands fulfillment. Therein he cannot be replaced, nor can his life be repeated, thus, everyone's task is unique as his specific opportunity to implement it".

I think that perhaps the Bible elevates the status of Israel when read as a beginner. It's easy to get the impression that somehow being Jewish makes you special. Unfortunately a lot of Judaism cultivates that kind of thinking. The reality is that in the Bible Israel is hardly a good example of obedience to God. She is often out of favor with God and pays a heavy price.

So- what's the answer? According to the NT, one's identity is not realized or fulfilled in one's human heritage. It is fulfilled in the Messiah. And not once is it seen as fulfilled and realized in the Jewishness of the Messiah- because despite His adherence to the Torah, He was rejected and despised and His love reaches out far beyond and borders of Judaism.

God created in Adam's DNA the potential for the many races and ways of life that we have today. Why are they not all revered equally? Every person on the planet has a story that is unique to themselves. Why is that deemed unworthy and indeed something to be destroyed?

God created all of us to find ourselves in Him. He didn't create us so that we would find ourselves in the Jewish people. Even Jews won't be complete by being Jewish and Yiddishkeit in general. A Jew will only be complete if his or her identity is bound up in God. It is the same for everyone else.

The identity so many people seek in religion is very outward and worldly. They assume that doing Jewish things (de facto being Jewish) wins favor from God. A myth.

I identify as in Christ and it is because I am in Christ that I desire to follow in the steps of his example (1 Peter 2:21), to walk as he walked (1 John 2:6), and to become an imitation of him (1 Corinthians 11:1). I don't keep God's commands because I seek to be Jewish, but because I love Him, I trust Him, I am a child of God, I am part of His chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, and a people of His own possession, that I might proclaim the excellencies of Him who called me out of darkness into His marvelous light (1 Peter 2:9). Obeying God's law isn't about being like Jews, but about being like His chosen people and about serving the God we follow in the way that He wants to be followed.

It is good for Gentiles to study Jewish culture because it helps to understand what the earliest Christians were like and gives us much insight into the context of the Bible. While there is value in rabbinic though, I agree that we need to be careful because Jesus said that their level of righteousness didn't meet his kingdom standard (Matthew 5:20).

Agreed. The question is how.

When God commands us to love Him, do we obey the command out of obligation or love?

BelieveTheWord · Oct 13, 2015

Truthfrees said:
Can you clarify what you mean by the 2nd half of this sentence: "Paul never endorses the Noahide idea, nor does he state that he is delivering Yah's Torah that we see in Jer 31."

If Yah's Torah is in Jeremiah 31:33, it's also in Hebrews 10:16 and Hebrews 8:10.

Are you saying Paul IS teaching Torah in his teachings?

The typical idea in Christianity is that the old laws are done away with and a new set of laws for the new covenant is delivered by Paul. I was just pointing out that never says he is doing that. And, of course, there is no prophecy that someone will come along after the Messiah to give the real commandments. Yeshua instructs His disciples to teach all the nations the same things He taught them. There is no instruction to wait for a guy to give Gentile-only teachings. Jeremiah 31 doesn't say anything about a new torah. It is Yah's Torah, the same delivered to Moses, that will be written on the hearts of those in the new covenant.

pinacled · Oct 13, 2015

Following Torah.
Would this be giving all you have been given to the poor in spirit?
Like knowledge?

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Love
…2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. 4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,…

Law-Love God with all your mind and Soul..
…35For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?…

Prophets-Love your neighbor as yourself.
Isaiah 58:7
Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter-- when you see the naked, to clothe them, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

Ezekiel 18:7
He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked.

The Parable of the Talents
14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servantsa]">[a] and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents,b]">[b] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.c]">[c] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him

I have heard that a Dragon has the character to hoard treasures..
Just as the Pharisees were a den of vipers.

Saul of Tarsus

Hebrew Roots Christian

Newbie

Newbie

Y'shua is His Name

Senior Veteran

Newbie

Y'shua is His Name

Messianic Jewish Christian

Hebrew Roots Christian

Hebrew Roots Christian

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Hebrew Roots Christian

walking with the Shekinah

Similar threads