Saul of Tarsus

Open Heart said:

A person can know God DESPITE the heresy of their religion.

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I think basically all human beings are capable of keeping the golden rule. Some people go beyond that, to help their fellow humans beings. Some people go beyond that, to please God.

yonah_mishael said:

I know that Christian theologians like to divorce the two, but they seem to me to refer to the same thing.

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It depends on the denomination. For example, Lutherans and Catholics see justification and salvation as identical. However, because James says that justification is not by faith alone, there are some Protestants who squirm with that and say that justification can't possibly be salvation.

If we want to get into "Deep Doctrine", salvation is by God alone.

God is the one that GIVES faith in Yeshua, as well as good works.

So really, it is not by faith or by works.

Hoshiyya said:

I think basically all human beings are capable of keeping the golden rule. Some people go beyond that, to help their fellow humans beings. Some people go beyond that, to please God.

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There are some people that will stick to a rule, even when the application of that rule clearly violates the Golden Rule. For example, I've met quite a few people that say we should always tell the truth, therefore it is a good thing to gossip bad stuff about someone if it's true, even though they would hate it if someone did that to them.

Hoshiyya said:

So really, it is not by faith or by works.

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RIGHT!!!! The way that I say it is that there is no word "alone." Faith alone is a fraud. Works alone are futile. God desires a working faith as a response to his grace. Faith and faithfulness are really two sides of the same coin.

Open Heart said:

There are some people that will stick to a rule, even when the application of that rule clearly violates the Golden Rule. For example, I've met quite a few people that say we should always tell the truth, therefore it is a good thing to gossip bad stuff about someone if it's true, even though they would hate it if someone did that to them.

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Yes, there's some (mostly Protestant) folks who are all "I cannot tell a lie, meine Herren, the Jews are hiding here, there and in my neighbours house." Don't know if they'd really do it, but some take the position that they would. I had an argument online with one that really insisted on this position, not sure if he ever recanted.

And he was from New York, even. I thought they all went by the Omerta ovah deah.

Hoshiyya said:

Yes, there's some (mostly Protestant) folks who are all "I cannot tell a lie, meine Herren, the Jews are hiding here, there and in my neighbours house."

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We actually had an argument about this on OBOB and I was SHOCKED that there was anyone who was Christian that held this position. It was just appalling.

Open Heart said:

We actually had an argument about this on OBOB and I was SHOCKED that there was anyone who was Christian that held this position. It was just appalling.

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It should not be so shocking, didn't that happen among the Jews themselves in the first century?

51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Shimshon said:

Traditional MJ view is that Paul all though misunderstood and taken out of context by traditional Christianity corresponds perfectly with the rest of the apostles and the gospel message.

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I'm going with this- with the added caveat that not all MJ views of Paul are that kosher either.

I believe Paul's mission to the Gentiles is reflected in his epistles as well- though not exclusively so they are more directed towards former pagans than toward Jewish Christians. James and Peter reflect a more Jewish audience.

Hoshiyya said:

Yes, there's some (mostly Protestant) folks who are all "I cannot tell a lie, meine Herren, the Jews are hiding here, there and in my neighbours house." Don't know if they'd really do it, but some take the position that they would. I had an argument online with one that really insisted on this position, not sure if he ever recanted.

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Well, the better Protestant theologians of the time taught against such reasoning (eg. Bonhoeffer). There's always light somewhere.

Lulav said:

It should not be so shocking, didn't that happen among the Jews themselves in the first century?

51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

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Don't see how that applies. Internal division in the family is far away from being an informant or collaborating with actual Gestapo murderers or betraying people to their deaths for the sake of 'honesty'.

What we were both talking about were really people who take this theoretical position today, online. I suggested they probably wouldn't do it in reality though.

Doesnt it really boil down to a simple truth? You act upon what you believe or rather that what you believe is reflected by what you do.

As 1 John 2 states: We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Yeshua did.

If we claim that we are saved then we will keep his commands. We will LIVE AS HE LIVED. Which is why those who say Faith alone and works are trying to earn salvation are missing the point. They confuse Torah as a means to salvation. It NEVER at any point served as a method by which salvation was or is attained.

It IS however a proof (if you will or evidence perhaps is a better word) of a person who is saved by Faith through grace walking in obedience as Messiah walked before his Father in obedience

BukiRob said:

Doesnt it really boil down to a simple truth? You act upon what you believe or rather that what you believe is reflected by what you do.

As 1 John 2 states: We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Yeshua did.

If we claim that we are saved then we will keep his commands. We will LIVE AS HE LIVED. Which is why those who say Faith alone and works are trying to earn salvation are missing the point. They confuse Torah as a means to salvation. It NEVER at any point served as a method by which salvation was or is attained.

It IS however a proof (if you will or evidence perhaps is a better word) of a person who is saved by Faith through grace walking in obedience as Messiah walked before his Father in obedience

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And thank you for your one law interpretation of the Torah. Messianic Judaism belief is a little different though.

In Messianic Judaism it is not a belief that Yeshua came to make all the nations of the world part of Israel as proven by observing the laws given Moshe. It's simply not a MJ core value at all. This is not a commonly held belief in MJ except for one law adherents.

Messianic Jews believe that some of the nations are called to become part of Israel just like some of Egypt came with Israel into the desert to become part of Israel. But not all of Egypt was called to come with Moshe. It wasn't that way then and it's not that way now.

"some of the nations are called to become part of Israel just like some of Egypt came with Israel into the desert to become part of Israel. But not all of Egypt was called to come with Moshe. It wasn't that way then and it's not that way now."

This is true, and I suspect BukiRob might agree with this. Yeshua said many (not all) are called, and even fewer are chosen (Matthew 22:14).

I think many people who are mistaken for "one law proponents" would agree with Shimshon's final paragraph (quoted), but if one opens by telling them they are wrong, they will be put on the defensive side and (this is important) they will feel you are telling THEM to actually stop keeping Torah.

So this is a matter of communication.

BukiRob said:

If we claim that we are saved then we will keep his commands

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Hoshiyya said:

So this is a matter of communication

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Yes it is. Look at the above quote and tell me it communicated "some"? This is basically saying if you're not following the law given through Moses you are not going to attain salvation.
This communicates those that are saved keep the law given through Moses. All because of faith in Yeshua. Faith is expressed by following the law. Your not saved if you don't show your faith by observing the law. I don't know how I can say this over and over again and not have it be communicated clearly and this is what is being communicated through one law theology.

I'm not trying to win an argument here. Nor can I read BukiRob's mind.

But I know that my intention, and other people's interpretation of my words, are not always the same thing. And that putting someone on the defensive isn't always the pragmatic thing to do.

Those who feel called to keep Torah should keep Torah. Maybe that is the "we" he is referring to ?
Notice however that I don't say "they should keep Torah, lest they go into hell."

I personally find that bringing soteriology into another issue just muddles or confuses the other issue. I am not naming anyone, just saying that I personally find it more pragmatic to not do that.

I also think "salvation" probably can mean different things, depending on context, as is the case with any word.

Shimshon said:

Messianic Jews believe that some of the nations are called to become part of Israel just like some of Egypt came with Israel into the desert to become part of Israel. But not all of Egypt was called to come with Moshe. It wasn't that way then and it's not that way now.

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Right on, bro.

Shimshon said:

And thank you for your one law interpretation of the Torah. Messianic Judaism belief is a little different though.

In Messianic Judaism it is not a belief that Yeshua came to make all the nations of the world part of Israel as proven by observing the laws given Moshe. It's simply not a MJ core value at all. This is not a commonly held belief in MJ except for one law adherents.

Messianic Jews believe that some of the nations are called to become part of Israel just like some of Egypt came with Israel into the desert to become part of Israel. But not all of Egypt was called to come with Moshe. It wasn't that way then and it's not that way now.

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I really appreciate this comment.

The problem I see here is that there seems to be a disconnect between understanding what the Messianic Gentiles are saying in this forum regarding 'one law'.
There was a specification given and this was before they even were allowed into the land.

The community is to have the same rules for you and for the foreigner residing among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the foreigner shall be the same before the L-RD:

It is these foreigners who were called out of Egypt as was Israel, out of slavery of sin. It is the same for Gentiles today being called out to cleave unto the L-RD and join themselves to Israel.

I don't understand the big difference here, all you who are Jews are making the Gentiles feel like second class citizens, why? As some have said, they keep the Torah out of obligation, but isn't it much better to keep it out of love because G-d called you to keep it?

The 'one law' is not for all gentiles but those who have received a calling, like Ruth and are begging like Rut to not be sent away. But I see many here doing just that, pushing away, making a difference. And I don't understand why.

Lulav said:

I don't understand the big difference here, all you who are Jews are making the Gentiles feel like second class citizens, why?

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Fantastic question.

My point of view is rather scandalous (and perhaps hurtful) to some though. Gentiles who seem to want to attach themselves to or adopt the Jewish identity already see themselves as second class citizens- otherwise they wouldn't be self-hating Gentiles. With all the beauty, talent, energy, success and treasures in the Gentile world- why would they want to be like Jews?

There's really a psychology of identity to contend with here. Viktor Frankl was onto it- "Man's Search for Meaning".

He said: "Everyone has his own specific vocation or mission in life; everyone must carry out a concrete assignment that demands fulfillment. Therein he cannot be replaced, nor can his life be repeated, thus, everyone's task is unique as his specific opportunity to implement it".

I think that perhaps the Bible elevates the status of Israel when read as a beginner. It's easy to get the impression that somehow being Jewish makes you special. Unfortunately a lot of Judaism cultivates that kind of thinking. The reality is that in the Bible Israel is hardly a good example of obedience to God. She is often out of favor with God and pays a heavy price.

So- what's the answer? According to the NT, one's identity is not realized or fulfilled in one's human heritage. It is fulfilled in the Messiah. And not once is it seen as fulfilled and realized in the Jewishness of the Messiah- because despite His adherence to the Torah, He was rejected and despised and His love reaches out far beyond and borders of Judaism.

God created in Adam's DNA the potential for the many races and ways of life that we have today. Why are they not all revered equally? Every person on the planet has a story that is unique to themselves. Why is that deemed unworthy and indeed something to be destroyed?

God created all of us to find ourselves in Him. He didn't create us so that we would find ourselves in the Jewish people. Even Jews won't be complete by being Jewish and Yiddishkeit in general. A Jew will only be complete if his or her identity is bound up in God. It is the same for everyone else.

The identity so many people seek in religion is very outward and worldly. They assume that doing Jewish things (de facto being Jewish) wins favor from God. A myth.

As some have said, they keep the Torah out of obligation, but isn't it much better to keep it out of love because G-d called you to keep it?

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Agreed. The question is how.

The 'one law' is not for all gentiles but those who have received a calling, like Ruth and are begging like Rut to not be sent away. But I see many here doing just that, pushing away, making a difference. And I don't understand why.

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Good point. God may indeed be calling some people to join the Jewish nation- that would be conversion to Judaism. But perhaps now in these times is calling people to a Messianic Judaism. I don't know. Time will tell. Sometimes I think I see it and other times I think it looks like a human construct born out of identity crises.

The trouble is: that just like other denominations it has created an elitism- the Church is where the second class citizens are. They are the "blind", "lawless" and the "deceived". Plus it creates a great number of theological contradictions (like early Pentecostalism it is a theology formed in a vacuum devoid of grounding, still trying to figure out its contradictions)