I have never been able to understand how some Christians are able to state that they are saved , and I struggle with Christians' stance on this. For me, I believe that I won't know whether or not I'm saved until the moment I leave this world to journey in the worlds of God. It's this uncertainty that makes me strive to be the best believer I can be through, prayer, acts of kindness, attempting to lead a moral life etc. No, I won't know whether or not I'm saved until the day I breathe my last
"Saved"?
- Thread starter Aidan K
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Brother..I understand where you're coming from. But please hear me out. We can't work our way to God and gain our salvation. If we could somehow save ourselves and 'get right with God'/'Impress Him in order to gain entrance into His Kingdom, we would not have needed God to send His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins and pay the penalty of it. We would have been able to save ourselves..but we can't. It is by faith alone in Jesus Christ- that He died, was buried, rose again, and is our Lord and Saviour-that we are saved. Nothing we can ever do- no matter how many good deeds we do, no matter how many prayers we pray, or how good we try to be.. when we are face to face with God, we cannot say to His face that we tried to lead a moral life and did this many deeds. All we can is..I trust in Your Son, Jesus Christ, that He is my Saviour and my Lord. Don't get me wrong- praying and striving to be better for His glory is truly great. But good works is the fruit of our salvation, not the means of earning it.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. I say this all with love brother.
Hope this helps.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. I say this all with love brother.
Hope this helps.
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Jesus came to give us the perfect example of a way of life to honour, love and worship God almighty. If faith alone leads to salvation, then the Lord Jesus would not have given us the example of His good deeds, miracles and teaching. If faith alone were enough, then He would have spent His life in prayer and meditation
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Theodore A. Jones
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"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 I think it is in your best interest to figure out what that law is that Paul is referencing relative to the fact "Save yourselves" Acts 2:40b.Brother..I understand where you're coming from. But please hear me out. We can't work our way to God and gain our salvation. If we could somehow save ourselves and 'get right with God'/'Impress Him in order to gain entrance into His Kingdom, we would not have needed God to send His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins and pay the penalty of it. We would have been able to save ourselves..but we can't. It is by faith alone in Jesus Christ- that He died, was buried, rose again, and is our Lord and Saviour-that we are saved. Nothing we can ever do- no matter how many good deeds we do, no matter how many prayers we pray, or how good we try to be.. when we are face to face with God, we cannot say to His face that we tried to lead a moral life and did this many deeds. All we can is..I trust in Your Son, Jesus Christ, that He is my Saviour and my Lord. Don't get me wrong- praying and striving to be better for His glory is truly great. But good works is the fruit of our salvation, not the means of earning it.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. I say this all with love brother.
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I think that we are righteous when we obey the law in that we are walking in righteousness.. not quite sure what you're trying to tell me, brother, but please elaborate on what you want me to know.
I forgot to add that we need to repent of course from our sins and strive to follow Him. But it is by faith that we are saved- not of ourselves..
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Forgive me if I'm interpreting these verses wrongly, but this tells me that nothing we can do, in terms of good deeds, can earn us salvation. I can see how faith expressing itself through love [through actions] can be what is meant. Like I said, good deeds is the fruit of our salvation.
Galatians 5:4-6
4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Galatians 5:4-6
4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
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After the fall, men become a dead species means all men surely are going to the eternal dead.
Gen2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
By His Grace only , the certain names /His people /names He planned before the creation of the world /names listed in the book of life would be processed in the purification process ---> the winners = saved , the loser = removed from the book of life = will be thrown to the lake of fire .
Rev3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Eph1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Why should Jesus came to us 2.000 years ago ?.
Why not in Abraham's era or Mosses's era ?.
No one admitted if he or she was a dead species in the eyes of God , that in their own will , they only had negative will (always opposing God Rom3:10-12).
In men nature they could not do any God's simplest order, so they should be driven out from Eden just for not eating the fruit of the tree of life intentionally ( as proof that they were merely spiritually dead creatures ) , although God had given them hundreds of years for verification about their spiritually dead , they did not realize , also God gave them hundreds of laws(Torah laws) as the standard of life in the eye of God , these laws could not help them realize as well ( they still persistently enthusiastically trying to fulfill the laws , so odd don't they ?).
Until the given time for their verification was over , so God should change Him self to be the Messiah for manifesting His Grace (opening the men eyes by force ,if they are merely spiritually dead creatures by their own will will never be able to do any simplest God's order ----> there shall be a premise Salvation is only by God's Grace ).
Then after men understood how and what the God's Grace is surely His people can glorify Him (the purpose of creation ).
Gen2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
By His Grace only , the certain names /His people /names He planned before the creation of the world /names listed in the book of life would be processed in the purification process ---> the winners = saved , the loser = removed from the book of life = will be thrown to the lake of fire .
Rev3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Eph1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Why should Jesus came to us 2.000 years ago ?.
Why not in Abraham's era or Mosses's era ?.
No one admitted if he or she was a dead species in the eyes of God , that in their own will , they only had negative will (always opposing God Rom3:10-12).
In men nature they could not do any God's simplest order, so they should be driven out from Eden just for not eating the fruit of the tree of life intentionally ( as proof that they were merely spiritually dead creatures ) , although God had given them hundreds of years for verification about their spiritually dead , they did not realize , also God gave them hundreds of laws(Torah laws) as the standard of life in the eye of God , these laws could not help them realize as well ( they still persistently enthusiastically trying to fulfill the laws , so odd don't they ?).
Until the given time for their verification was over , so God should change Him self to be the Messiah for manifesting His Grace (opening the men eyes by force ,if they are merely spiritually dead creatures by their own will will never be able to do any simplest God's order ----> there shall be a premise Salvation is only by God's Grace ).
Then after men understood how and what the God's Grace is surely His people can glorify Him (the purpose of creation ).
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oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
This assurance can come only from God. Although you will hear people tell you that they are assured by what they believe the bible says about it, only those who are confident in their standing with God can really state their certainty with a convincing conviction. Essentially, it comes from knowing that there is nothing in our life that we are hiding, that we are ashamed of. What happens in such a situation, if we are hiding such a sin, is we find comfort that no fellow man is going to judge us for it, yet when we want to come into God's presence, we receive condemnation. This actually causes us to remain out of His presence. This is what Adam and Eve did, they covered themselves because they could hide their nakedness from each other, but with God who knew their nakedness, they could only hide. Jesus said we must become as children to enter heaven. A child is a state of mind that we consider innocent, not because they never do sin, but rather because they are not polluted by sin. They are meek, which means that they accept correction in order to do what is right, and that is repentance. Contrarily, an adult who has discovered independence that gives them freedom to sin, often naturally becomes a slave to sin and chooses a path of non-repentance. Whereas some of us who love God, who take Him as a spiritual father, we acknowledge His reproof just as a child acknowledges their parent's reproof and fears the consequences should they sin. In this way, we remain accountable to Him. However, if someone disobeys what they know God says to them, then they are not confident in His presence but rather they are afraid to meet Him. I have found all of this from certain real experiences, and I recognise that when I cannot say with certainty that my salvation is assured, it is because I am ashamed to be in His presence. This gives context to 1 John 1:6.
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Steven Wood
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Every person who was and is and is to come was saved 2,000 years ago so when someone says they are saved they're correct. Now if they say they are forgiven that's a different story. You're saved by grace through faith, if you have faith that Jesus is the Son of GOD and is GOD, died for our sins to save us, rose from death and ascended back to heaven then you are saved by his grace. To be forgiven you need to be truly sorry for the things that you have done and no that they are wrong and repent of them which means TRY not to do them again, it doesn't mean you fail forever if it happens again, we all fall short. Faith without works is dead means that what's the use of having faith in such a great and awesome GOD if you don't use it and help others to the promise you have (which GOD commands us to do). What's the use of having a car if you don't drive it or legs if you don't walk. Works cannot save us or get us into heaven. Prayer and fasting, reading his word and being a good and faithful servant cannot get our foot in the door, can't even get us good window seats. The use for these is this, our works are meant to show others and help lead others to Christ, our prayers and fasting and ever being present in his word makes us aware and awake of what GOD wants of us and for us. It makes us aware of the signs and times and what's going on around us so we're ever on guard. At the great white throne judgement we will all be judged, Everyone that has ever been, the Christians based on their good works and faithfulness and their sins BUT remember the last shall be first, what are the reasons you're doing these good works? Is it to "build up treasures in Heaven"? Well that selfishness in itself and you're doing them just to gain things for yourself isn't it? You aren't really doing it to help or to bring people to Christ at all, it's to get a gold staff and a silk robe. If Jesus had the word "I" in his thoughts and thought "when I do this the angels are gonna sing" he would've sinned because it was selfish and we'd all be stuck. He truly did not care about himself or what he got out of it. Doing all of these things is good Knowing Jesus is necessary friend.
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ViaCrucis
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This largely depends on what is meant by "saved".
As a Lutheran I consider confidence of one's salvation to be based upon the fact that Christ died and rose from the dead, ascended, and is coming again. It also means being able to point to my baptism and what that baptism means and signifies, the promises which God has attached to baptism. For Lutherans one of the most bold things we can say is "baptismus sum", "I am baptized". Luther recommends that Christians regularly remind themselves of their baptism, such as when we make the sign of the cross, but we should even be reminded of this when we bathe, the water itself reminding us of the fact that we are baptized. And to continually and regularly return to our baptism by repentance, thereby drowning the old man by repentance.
So to say "I have been saved" does not involve looking to ourselves and our spiritual works or feats of will; it is to look to the Cross and confess the Cross, to affirm our baptism wherein we have been crucified with Christ.
But it is more than "I have been saved", it is to say, "I am being saved'; as this salvation is present tense. It is also future tense, so we say "we shall be saved". We have been saved, two thousand years ago when the Son of God gave His life for us all; we are being saved as the Word of God comes to me, the Holy Spirit present in me--which I can believe with confidence on account of my baptism--that the Gospel is declared to me and I believe this, trust this, and this faith is granted to me as the gift and grace of God by which I look upon the Christ who died and in whom I am promised true and eternal life--and therefore I will be saved for there comes a day when that promise shall be made full, when it shall be as it is written, "Where O Death is your string? Where O Death is your victory?" for the day will come when Christ shall return and the dead shall rise and all creation restored and we shall dwell with God forever.
The confidence to say I have been, am being, and will be saved is never to point to me, but always to point to Christ in which are found the true and certain promises of God. For Christ says that all those which the Father has given Him will not be plucked from His hand, He says that He will, most assuredly, raise them up on the last day. St. Paul says to us that neither life, death, nor any power at all can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. And it is only in this reality, of the love of God for us and His act to save us and redeem us that we, with confidence, can say "We are more than conquerors,"
-CryptoLutheran
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aiki
Regular Member
Your uncertainty is unfortunate - and unnecessary. Scripture tells me that I am saved right now, not will be saved - possibly - in the future.
1 John 5:11-13
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
"You have eternal life." Not "will have."
1 John 3:14
14 We KNOW that we HAVE PASSED from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.
If salvation is a future uncertainty, how can the apostle John speak so unequivocally of a knowledge of having "passed from death unto life"?
Ephesians 2:5-9
5 even when we WERE dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you HAVE BEEN saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you HAVE BEEN saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
2 Timothy 1:8-9
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who HAS SAVED us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Titus 3:5
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He SAVED us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
And so on. Clearly, if one believes the teaching of the Bible, salvation is not a future unknown.
Selah.
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oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
Merely believing the bible is not enough to qualify life though, as Jesus did say to Nicodemus that although he studied the scriptures with great care, he was refusing to come into the light and the consequence is that he was still not born again - alive in the spirit. Quite a noticeable majority of bible believers that I have seen, actually use biblical quotes to qualify themselves in the eyes of their peers, and for their own sense of security. But, what I have found through direct, unmistakable experiences of exercising repentance, it is something quite different to actually receive assurance from The Holy Spirit instead of merely possessing a hope that is based upon promises that one believes is applicable to them.
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I love it when someone will ask if I am saved? The best response is always, can't you tell? Certainly, the really silly thing would be for men to rely on theology as their assurance of salvation, because then they would never know if they were as deceived as those to whom Christ says, I never knew you.
Assurance comes from the in dwelling of his spirit and a relationship with Christ. To ask such people if they are saved is a secondary issue to loving God. You could say, I dont know but I love God. Let no man say he is saved only because he wants to escape the judgement to come, but rather let him say, in coming to Christ his love and righteous were sufficient for me. Born not of natural decent, nor human decision nor of a husbands will, but born of God. The indwelling of his spirit is undeniable and dectable.
Assurance comes from the in dwelling of his spirit and a relationship with Christ. To ask such people if they are saved is a secondary issue to loving God. You could say, I dont know but I love God. Let no man say he is saved only because he wants to escape the judgement to come, but rather let him say, in coming to Christ his love and righteous were sufficient for me. Born not of natural decent, nor human decision nor of a husbands will, but born of God. The indwelling of his spirit is undeniable and dectable.
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You show a lot of wisdom, but think of it like this:
Would you prefer to have people love you out of pure gratitude for what you have already done for them or to be loved by others for what they hope to get from you?
True Christians have been given all they can get right now, with the exception of having the birth right to heaven and are not in heaven right now, but you have to die to get heaven now.
They do not “have” to do anything but have the privilege and honor of allowing deity to work through them to accomplish great things
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aiki
Regular Member
A couple of things: Nicodemus did not possess the New Testament as you and I do today. In fact, when Christ spoke to him about being "born-again," such a thing was impossible because Jesus had not yet died on the cross.
Where is the Good News, the Gospel, proclaimed to all mankind? First of all, in the Bible. If one does not trust the Bible, if one does not believe the contents of it are true, then salvation cannot be found; for it is in the pages of the Bible that the story of God's redemption of humanity is preserved and communicated to the world.
I think you would have to know the majority of Christian believers before you could assert what you have about them "using biblical quotes to qualify themselves in the eyes of their peers." Inasmuch as there are several million people claiming faith in Christ, I doubt very much that you can legitimately characterize the majority of them as you have. What's more, the promises of Scripture are true whether or not one has this "assurance" you speak of. No where does one find in Scripture that a feeling of assurance is the sole - or even the primary - basis upon which a believer knows he/she is saved. It is Scripture itself that establishes the criteria by which believers may "examine themselves whether they be in the faith"; it is Scripture that tells us that God's Spirit dwells within the genuinely born-again person; it is Scripture that teaches us that the "Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God." Scripture does not save us, but it cannot be just swept aside as invalid grounds upon which to rest one's confidence in their eternal security. It is, after all, how any of us even know about the possibility of eternal security.
How do you know that the sense of assurance you feel is not just the production of your own mind and expectations? Is there any objective basis upon which you can validate this sense you have? But if there is such a basis, would it not, by virtue of its objectivity, be better grounds for asserting your confidence in your salvation? And if there is not such a basis, how can you assert that your particular feeling of assurance is exactly what everyone else must experience? That rather makes you the final arbiter of the salvation of others, doesn't it?
Selah.
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oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
When Jesus, The Word of God, speaks to us, it cuts to the marrow. Nicodemus certainly would have heard The Word telling him he must be born again. I do not understand this doctrine you are describing, that being born again was not possible before the crucifixion. Jesus seemed to go on to describe that The Spirit gives life to those it pleases, and while we know the ones who have spiritual life, because we can see how it is acting in them (we know them by their fruits), we cannot say where it came from or where it is going.
Faith in God, and freedom from sin are what salvation is. God's mercy and grace are proclaimed to the world through Jesus Christ, and the bible is about Him. Abraham, Noah, even Abel all knew God and were saved long before the bible was written.
Thanks for showing me that, in a moment I will edit that comment to specify that this is my personal observation.
I see that parts of scripture are describing the very same thing I am describing, and it seems fit to assume those scriptures are expressions of genuine findings that the writers had discovered, in much the same way that I have discovered them. Essentially, what I am saying is an echo of what the scriptures say. If you believe my statements contradict scripture, then that will no doubt be valuable for me to know. Thank you.
Yes, I believe The Holy Spirit is objective, and when I am repentant, then I have His approval. I do not have His approval when I am unrepentant.
I should hope this has been clarified, but do let me know if not. Thank you aiki!
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Wow! There is a lot of variation here with much reasoning (and some misapplication of Scripture). As Aiki said: 1 Jn. 5:10-13 tells it all in a comprehensive way. Read all of John 14 also to see what the Lord Jesus taught about eternal hope!
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TheyCallMeDave
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The Bible tells us that we MUST die in Christ before leaving this world. 1 John 5:13 Peter tells the Disciples that they CAN KNOW (present tense) that they HAVE (present possession) eternal salvation God doesn't want us going thru life wondering and hoping we will make it to heaven one day and its certainly not based on our righteousness but on the righteousness of the One who died in our place to cancel all sins and who gives us the Holy Spirit to know we are looked upon as accepted by God in full.
If we could get to heaven thru our own good works, then Jesus didn't have to die. Faith and Gods Grace is what gets you to heaven, and not what WE THINK we can contribute. That said, being kind and nice are good virtues but they are never enough to make us suitable for heaven. Believe on Jesus by faith in HIS meritorious works on calvary and his resurrection as a deposit..and you can KNOW without a doubt that youll go to heaven right after dying to your physical body. Theres no self righteousness associated with it --- its something God wants you to know based on historical fact and you taking Jesus as your personal King and Lord. Please read Romans 10:8-12 to know exactly how to secure your eternal destiny with our great God.
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