[MOVED]Are you lawless?

I believe we must get serious about our faith, and keep our mind focused on good things instead of evil, and keep our ears and eyes away from evil things as well, because that is a stumbling block. We can grow in self control this way, yet even then im not sure anyone is perfect.


2 peter 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love.

I have been having a battle myself recently. ITs an old one that will be with me for a little while longer. However, i find that even though it tries hard to lead me away, that all i must do is resist it. and also think about good things instead. IT will flee. IT takes a serious effort though, it takes my willingness to be serious and obey God. I am in no way boasting or thinking that i am good, because i can easily fail in this and i know it. Even if i couldn't easily fail i would not boast because i know that i am just a sinner. I fight this fight because i know its right. I think it actually strengthens me too when i stay in obedience, or perhaps it keeps me from being weakened. This battle actually makes me hope in heaven all the more. This world is broken in my opinion, and when my time come to leave it, perhaps it will be with great joy, God willing.

Poster0 said:

I have been having a battle myself recently. ITs an old one that will be with me for a little while longer. However, i find that even though it tries hard to lead me away, that all i must do is resist it. and also think about good things instead. IT will flee. IT takes a serious effort though, it takes my willingness to be serious and obey God. I am in no way boasting or thinking that i am good, because i can easily fail in this and i know it. Even if i couldn't easily fail i would not boast because i know that i am just a sinner. I fight this fight because i know its right. I think it actually strengthens me too when i stay in obedience, or perhaps it keeps me from being weakened. This battle actually makes me hope in heaven all the more. This world is broken in my opinion, and when my time come to leave it, perhaps it will be with great joy, God willing.

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The word "works", human effort, is always used in scripture in the context of leading to justification or sanctification. It is contrasted with "by the Spirit", by God's work.

Can you show me where human or Godly action specifically leads to anything other than justification or sanctification?


God created the world, just as a gardener plants a garden. Then it gave Him exactly what He created it for, just as the gardener can rest and collect flowers or fruit from his garden, or a builder can enjoy living in a house he built, WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING MORE. It seems that God had included the sacrifice of His Lamb, even before the creation of the world, so that His People could enjoy the benefits provided by that work.

What is the rest God provided?

Hebrews 4:10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

Wordkeeper said:

The word "works", human effort, is always used in scripture in the context of leading to justification or sanctification. It is contrasted with "by the Spirit", by God's work.

Can you show me where human or Godly action specifically leads to anything other than justification or sanctification?


God created the world, just as a gardener plants a garden. Then it gave Him exactly what He created it for, just as the gardener can rest and collect flowers or fruit from his garden, or a builder can enjoy living in a house he built, WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING MORE. It seems that God had included the sacrifice of His Lamb, even before the creation of the world, so that His People could enjoy the benefits provided by that work.

What is the rest God provided?

Hebrews 4:10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

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God created us with freedom of choice. Salvation doesn't take away our freedom of choice. If you want to be ignorant of your freedom then that's your choice. I however understand that we have freedom and that God wants us to use it for good and not evil.



Check out these scriptures. Open your eyes and see.


Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

Ephesians 5:15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.



1 Peter 2:16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves.

Mathew 7:26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.

Wordkeeper said:

The word "works", human effort, is always used in scripture in the context of leading to justification or sanctification. It is contrasted with "by the Spirit", by God's work.

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You're incorrect. It is not always in that context. You may want to consider that words such as "law", "commandment" and "works" are not always used in the same context. I have meditated a lot on Paul's letters, and i know this to be true.


Titus 3:1414 And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.

"Poster0 said:

You're incorrect. It is not always in that context. You may want to consider that words such as "law", "commandment" and "works" are not always used in the same context. I have meditated a lot on Paul's letters, and i know this to be true.


Titus 3:1414 And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.

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Ummm, this says get an honest job, so that you can help people who need money, being a way of showing good fruit.

These are results of efforts, not the efforts themselves. Fruit.

I notice you avoided answering what God's rest means.

Wordkeeper said:

Ummm, this says get an honest job, so that you can help people who need money, being a way of showing good fruit.

These are results of efforts, not the efforts themselves. Fruit.

I notice you avoided answering what God's rest means.

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Argumentative and irreverent, if its a result of effort then it proves effort is being taught here. It still shows that efforts are used. I don't need to answer what you asked about Gods rest because it doesn't mean what you would say it means. Its absurd for you to assert that we should not use our efforts for doing good instead of wrong. I can post scriptures all day that would show you how Paul urges us to use efforts, but you however would not see it. Your language makes me think you must be young. I cant sit here and debate with you for the next week because you wont see it anyway. Have a nice day.

Poster0 said:

Argumentative and irreverent, if its a result of effort then it proves effort is being taught here. It still shows that efforts are used. I don't need to answer what you asked about Gods rest because it doesn't mean what you would say it means. Its absurd for you to assert that we should not use our efforts for doing good instead of wrong. I can post scriptures all day that would show you how Paul urges us to use efforts, but you however would not see it. Your language makes me think you must be young. I cant sit here and debate with you for the next week because you wont see it anyway. Have a nice day.

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Of course it's argumentative, that's how a person engages in an argument, which I am doing, correctly, and it's relevant, because I'm not being evasive, which you are, in avoiding answering my question, or trying to defend your own arguments.

You think my description of God's rest is wrong, and I should believe you, just because you say so?

How about growing up and defining what God's rest is and defending your definition, instead of saying , "Nyah, nyah, it isn't so because I say so!"

The situation that was being addressed in the passage was that the believers were being sanctified by the efforts of God and were being filled with joy, peace and love, etc, but nothing practical, no visible fruit was being manifested. Paul was teaching the believers not be theoretical, airy-fairy, but to let their fruit manifest as practical good works.

Being cleansed is to be made suitable, made good, like a tree is made good, to bear good fruit.

Being cleansed is for the purpose of being earthly blessings, now, not when you die, in the sweet by and by. Who you gonna bless in Heaven?


Ephesians 2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Wordkeeper said:

Of course it's argumentative, that's how a person engages in an argument, which I am doing, correctly, and it's relevant, because I'm not being evasive, which you are, in avoiding answering my question, or trying to defend your own arguments.

You think my description of God's rest is wrong, and I should believe you, just because you say so?

How about growing up and defining what God's rest is and defending your definition, instead of saying , "Nyah, nyah, it isn't so because I say so!"

The situation that was being addressed in the passage was that the believers were being sanctified by the efforts of God and were being filled with joy, peace and love, etc, but nothing practical, no visible fruit was being manifested. Paul was teaching the believers not be theoretical, airy-fairy, but to let their fruit manifest as practical good works.

Being cleansed is to be made suitable, made good, like a tree is made good, to bear good fruit.

Being cleansed is for the purpose of being earthly blessings, now, not when you die, in the sweet by and by. Who you gonna bless in Heaven?


Ephesians 2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

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No it was not relevant, and you actually contradicted yourself. Christ said we can do nothing if we do not abide in Him. It requires our effort to abide in Him.

See: We are already CLEAN, but we cant bear fruit less we abide. How do we do that? By keeping his commands. IF this doesn't require our efforts then these words from the Lord are meaningless. Also, the promise that we wait for is heaven and our new body. Please dont say we get new bodies now because we dont. This is not heaven and this is not the promised body.

John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.


9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

We don't dont just sit around and wait for the promise that God will make us perfect in this life. That's not the promise we wait for. WE are already clean, so being cleansed is not the promise we wait for either.

We don't just sit around waiting while doing nothing, instead we abide in Christ while waiting. That requires effort on our part, otherwise the command i posted above is meaningless. WHY would he even need to tell us to abide in Him if that is a work that he does for us Himself? See, your theology makes no sense and it doesn't fit with scripture.

We are already clean, and we abide in him by obeying his commands which will bear fruit in us, because walking in the spirit is about obeying commands and we bear fruit by walking in the spirit. Logically it requires our effort. We cant just sit around and not use any effort at all, because that is irrational and unbiblical.

I cant debate with you all week, please go find someone else to debate.

Poster0 said:

No it was not relevant, and you actually contradicted yourself. Christ said we can do nothing if we do not abide in Him. It requires our effort to abide in Him.

See: We are already CLEAN, but we cant bear fruit less we abide. How do we do that? By keeping his commands. IF this doesn't require our efforts then these words from the Lord are meaningless. Also, the promise that we wait for is heaven and our new body. Please dont say we get new bodies now because we dont. This is not heaven and this is not the promised body.

John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.


9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

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To abide in Christ we must obey His commandments, and His commandment is to hear with faith towards justification, and continue with faith towards sanctification.


Scripture contradicts your view that we receive our promise in heaven:

Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

1 Peter 4:1If therefore The Messiah has suffered in your place in the flesh, be you also equipped with the same mind, for everyone who has died* in his body has ceased from all sins; * 2Therefore he shall not live for the desires of men, as during the time that he was in the body, but for the will of God.

Galatians 3:13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Besides, God can't use you to bless the world unless you are a vessel of honor:

2 Timothy 2:20Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. 21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.


Still waiting for your definition of the rest God has given us!

Wordkeeper said:

To abide in Christ we must obey His commandments, and His commandment is to hear with faith towards justification, and continue with faith towards sanctification.


Scripture contradicts your view that we receive our promise in heaven:

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Yes that is one of the commands of course, but not all of them. To believe in Christ is to follow his commands and promises together, not just one or the other. Scripture doesn't contradict what i said at all. Your understanding contradicts scripture however. Just study Paul's letters more, mediate on his commands specifically, while using common sense, and you will see that Paul does in fact want us to use our efforts for doing right instead of wrong.

Poster0 said:

Yes that is one of the commands of course, but not all of them. To believe in Christ is to follow his commands and promises together, not just one or the other. Scripture doesn't contradict what i said at all. Your understanding contradicts scripture however. Just study Paul's letters more, mediate on his commands specifically, while using common sense, and you will see that Paul does in fact want us to use our efforts for doing right instead of wrong.

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By the Holy Spirit, which we receive, by hearing with faith:

Galatians 3:1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed ascrucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Incidentally, abide means rest.

Wordkeeper said:

By the Holy Spirit, which we receive, by hearing with faith:

Galatians 3:1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed ascrucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Incidentally, abide means rest.

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Incidentally, i will use my efforts to love God with my heart mind soul and strength. YOu have no understanding of what that Galatians scripture is saying and so its unwise to use it in the way you do..

You can have the last word Wordkeeper, i really have no interest in this discussion any longer. Im going to delete this thread from my watch list.

Poster0 said:

You can have the last word Wordkeeper, i really have no interest in this discussion any longer. Im going to delete this thread from my watch list.

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Avoiding His words, not keeping His words in you, will not give you rest, but believing them will:

Matthew 11:28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

ContraMundum said:

Dear posters,

There is a perpetuating rumour around at certain sub-forums that Christians are lawless. The impression being given is that Christians believe that laws of God (all of them) are done away with and that Christians believe that no one is bound to any laws of God given before the Cross.

While I am pretty convinced that Christians still believe in the use of at least the Two Great Laws and teach the Ten as having a very firm place in theology, the accusation leveled at Christians is that they are no longer believed as binding.

So what is it? Is the law done away with entirely? Are you a bunch of antinomians, drooling after your lusts in a blind haze of licentiousness? Or are you confident that you can live by the Spirit and those commandments are guidelines for those who don't yet have the Spirit? Have you another view?





Or what?

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contramundum,

1. The new covenant is a higher standard than the law though the law was holy and good and built on better promises. Read Hebrews 8:6

2. The old covenant is less glorious because of the weakness of man's self effort and inability to attain and the law of sin and death took advantage of the Mosaic law that was holy and good. Read Romans 7.

3. The sacrifices were done away with because Christ was the ultimate sacrifice and the reality of all the types.

4. The civil law was done away with of the Mosaic ethic because it is for the disobedient. Read 1 Timothy 1:9.

5. The moral law was done away with according to the context of the Mosaic ethic which had a judgement. Galatians 3:13; Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree. It doesn't mean that the morals themselves are done away within themselves because they were in effect before the law and are now after the law. Today, we have no specific judgements or a blessing and cursing system in the new covenant.

The law was one whole unit. The jews have the law forever but, not under the Mosaic ethic but rather under the new covenant of which they have not entered into God's rest as of yet. Read Jeremiah 31:31-32, Hebrews 8:7-13.

People have to understand the difference of the old and new covenants. Hebrews goes as far as saying to leave the principles of the doctrine of Christ which was the Mosaic law and had doctrines like baptism and resurrection etc. The new testament have doctrines of this nature that are different. The essence was that if those jews went back to the old covenant living which had could not save them after hearing the gospel of the new covenant their would be no more sacrifice for sin. Jerry kelso

ContraMundum said:

Thanks Jerry Kelso.

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contramundum,
Your welcome. Be free by standing fast in the liberty of God and his grace for those who are justified by the law are fallen from grace. God bless! Jerry kelso