Animal Suffering

Reformed Lutheran said:

^^^ exactly . Without the predator, carnivore and physical death the natural world would destroy itself !

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Precisely.

It would lead to habitat destruction, soil erosion, deforestation, desertification, etc.

God created physical death in his great wisdom . We see a lion attack an elephant and we say it's because of sin because our minds are not the mind or wisdom of God

Reformed Lutheran said:

How do you know this? The millions of wicked men destroyed in the flood, how do you know they did not eat fish, or insects, or animals ?
The noahic covenant has to do with animals,, sure. But again, how do you know that other peoples all over the earth before Noah ate only plants,, Highly unlikely

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Well God said that the animals would now fear man.

random person said:

If there was no death before the fall, what happened elephants stepped on ants and snails or any smaller animals perhaps hidden beneath scrapes consisting of fallen detritus, rock, bark, etc?

What happened when nestling chicks fell from their nests from great heights or into bodies of water or were forced to fend for themselves exposed to the elements and no parent birds to look after them? Could eggs be broken or could high temperature summer heat cook an exposed egg?

What happened when animals suffered accidental falls from crushing great heights?

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Just how long do you think it was that man was in the Garden? We don't know, do we? It could have been a day, a week, a month, a year.

Reformed Lutheran said:

God created physical death in his great wisdom . We see a lion attack an elephant and we say it's because of sin because our minds are not the mind or wisdom of God

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I agree. Predators are beautiful creatures God created with an specific ordained role and purpose. When I look upon predators, I see God's infinite wisdom in creating some of nature's most majestic animals.

Hank77 said:

I was speaking about God's people and God's laws, Not pagans.

Just how long do you think it was that man was in the Garden? We don't know, do we? It could have been a day, a week, a month, a year.

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What does it matter how long? Predators are still absolutely necessary. Imagine sharing a world where cockroaches, locusts, flies, mosquitos, ants, termites, rabbits, rodents DO NOT DIE!

Hank77 said:

Well God said that the animals would now fear man.

Just how long do you think it was that man was in the Garden? We don't know, do we? It could have been a day, a week, a month, a year.

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That does not answer one of my series of questions at all.

Hank77 said:

Well God said that the animals would now fear man..

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Your over emphasizing the word NOW,, genesis 9 isn't about God "now" giving man animals as food,, nope, this is the dominion mandate for man to take over and fill the whole earth as earths master

Adam is given a garden, Noah is given the whole world

Reformed Lutheran said:

Your over emphasizing the word NOW,, genesis 8 isn't about God "now" giving man animals as food,, nope, this is the dominion mandate for man to take over and fill the whole earth as earths master

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What I am referring to is not in Genesis 8.
Gen 9:1 And God blesseth Noah, and his sons, and saith to them, `Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth;
Gen 9:2 and your fear and your dread is on every beast of the earth, and on every fowl of the heavens, on all that creepeth on the ground, and on all fishes of the sea--into your hand they have been given.
Gen 9:3 Every creeping thing that is alive, to you it is for food; as the green herb I have given to you the whole;
Gen 9:4 only flesh in its life--its blood--ye do not eat.

This is my last post on the subject, as I don't have anything new to contribute at this time. Carry on.

Hank77 said:

What I am referring to is not in Genesis 8.
Gen 9:1 And God blesseth Noah, and his sons, and saith to them, `Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth;
Gen 9:2 and your fear and your dread is on every beast of the earth, and on every fowl of the heavens, on all that creepeth on the ground, and on all fishes of the sea--into your hand they have been given.
Gen 9:3 Every creeping thing that is alive, to you it is for food; as the green herb I have given to you the whole;
Gen 9:4 only flesh in its life--its blood--ye do not eat.

This is my last post on the subject, as I don't have anything new to contribute at this time. Carry on.

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It is saying no "blood consumption".

I was going off the top of my head and my rust memory,, I meant genesis 9, not 8, and the verses you quoted.. Which are a dominion mandate , God giving the new world over to Noah to take dominion over it (that's the emphasis,, not "hey Noah, by the way humans eat animals now")

Also,, if humans did not eat animals before the flood, and they only ate plants. Then why on earth would Abel have flocks of animals that he raised and which he would kill and offer up as sacrifice the animal to god ??

Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the Lord respected Abel and his offering,
Gen 4

Also, I have little respect for Answers In Genesis, Christianity does not need a 27 million dollar creation museum.

Imagine how that money could have been used for the Gospel?

random person said:

...God purposely created ecological balance in which animal suffering is absolutely necessary.

See Psalm 104:

Thou makest darkness, and it is night: wherein all the beasts of the forest do creep forth. The young lions roar after their prey, and seek their meat from God. The sun ariseth, they gather themselves together, and lay them down in their dens.

Carnivores have always existed and will always exist. God created mother nature. God provided food and sustenance for all carnivores, omnivores, and herbivores.

Otherwise, without carnivores, all the herbivores and pests would overrun the earth which would inevitably lead to global deforestation, habitat destruction, and desertification quickly.

God created this earth requiring predators.

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In case you missed out on an obvious fact, Psalm 104 was written LONG after the fall of man. The writer was simply stating the events of his time AFTER the fall. It's also known that carnivores can in fact survive on a plant diet. Therefore, to presume that animals were killing before the fall is to assume what is not written in the scriptures.

SwordmanJr said:

In case you missed out on an obvious fact, Psalm 104 was written LONG after the fall of man. The writer was simply stating the events of his time AFTER the fall. It's also known that carnivores can in fact survive on a plant diet. Therefore, to presume that animals were killing before the fall is to assume what is not written in the scriptures.

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To presume that carnivores were not killing for meat, prior to the fall, is to presume what is not written in the scripture,, what is not written in the scientific truths,, and what is not obvious in nature itself.. that thought goes against all reason.

Were great white sharks eating sea weed before the fall ? How about T-rexes, were they eating bananas ?

Reformed Lutheran said:

To presume that carnivores were not killing for meat, prior to the fall, is to presume what is not written in the scripture,, what is not written in the scientific truths,, and what is not obvious in nature itself.. that thought goes against all reason.

Were great white sharks eating sea weed before the fall ? How about T-rexes, were they eating bananas ?

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My point exactly. We don't know either way. We were not there. All we can do is speculate. Doing so strictly on the basis of past-fall conditions is as erroneous as presuming otherwise in pre-fall conditions that we have never observed. Germany proved in WWII that carnivores can survive on a vegan diet.

SwordmanJr said:

In case you missed out on an obvious fact, Psalm 104 was written LONG after the fall of man. The writer was simply stating the events of his time AFTER the fall. It's also known that carnivores can in fact survive on a plant diet. Therefore, to presume that animals were killing before the fall is to assume what is not written in the scriptures.

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Psalm 104 is about creation.

The world was created with death and carnivores.

Are you telling me, before the fall if an elephant stepped on a mouse, frog, toad, or any other such small beasties it would not have been crushed to death? It would have survived? Animals could survive falls into live volcanos?

Are you actually telling every insect, reptile, mammal, bird, fish, etc was immortal before the fall?

If animals weren't immortal before the fall, how was population control conducted if there were no carnivores? And if animals weren't immortal before the fall, how were carcasses cleaned up and disposed with if there were no scavengers?

random person said:

Psalm 104 is about creation.

The world was created with death and carnivores.

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A higher authority says that death entered the world as a result of sin "...by one man..."...Adam. You might read Romans 5:12 for verification. I prefer to believe the inspired word of God to your irrationalizations.

Are you telling me, before the fall if an elephant stepped on a mouse, frog, toad, or any other such small beasties it would not have been crushed to death? It would have survived? Animals could survive falls into live volcanos?

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You think there were volcanoes before the fall? What's your source?

Are you actually telling every insect, reptile, mammal, bird, fish, etc was immortal before the fall?

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Immortal? Hmm. I don't recall using terminology that would lead to that word in relation to something being stepped on by another beast millions of times its size, but if we take God's word for what it says when He looked at it all and said, "It is good," then the presence of death in it all would seem to nullify His statement AND what's written in the referenced verse above in Romans.

So, the inevitable question then arises as to if we accept your style of reasoning, which is based purely upon intentionally exasperative questions rooted squarely upon our experiences in a post-fall condition. Taking your personal experiences and trying to rationalize them upon a pre-fall condition no human walking this earth has ever witnessed firsthand, nor is familiar with outside what we are told in scripture, you may as well know right off that I'm not such a fool to fall headlong into such error.

I'd rather take what we are told by an authoritative source over which no man can can warp and twist to his own designs without being clearly seen for his attempts at intrigue. There are many things we can't know for sure, and pretending that it can all be rationalized into saying what any one of us wants it to say speaks of a deeper problem that merits only silence as a response. This is why I chose to not respond to people like Hugh Ross and his fringe lunatic mob of theistic evolutionists. Yes, yes, I know. There are people like James Dobson who also have given in to that warped system of theology and archaeology, but I don't see any redeeming value in any of their self-contradoctory interpretations.

If animals weren't immortal before the fall, how was population control conducted if there were no carnivores? And if animals weren't immortal before the fall, how were carcasses cleaned up and disposed with if there were no scavengers?

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You either accept what is written in scripture about the entrance of death into the world at the point of the entrance of sin, or you do not. I really don't care either way. Like so many others, you're going to believe whatever you want, in spite of what is written to the contrary. Hugh Ross remains a self-made authority with a considerable following of the blind leading the blind. (shrug) So what? In the end, EVERY man is a liar, and God is True!

Trudge on, my friend. Trudge on.

SwordmanJr said:

In case you missed out on an obvious fact, Psalm 104 was written LONG after the fall of man. The writer was simply stating the events of his time AFTER the fall. It's also known that carnivores can in fact survive on a plant diet. Therefore, to presume that animals were killing before the fall is to assume what is not written in the scriptures.

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In the Book of Enoch, it was said that the giants sinned against the animals and mankind and devoured their flesh

The corruption of the fallen angels, which resulted to the giants caused much violence and bloodshed upon this world.

There's no instance of anything devouring another prior to the corruption of the fallen angels, neither did wars exist.


There's a huge "?" in Genesis like how did Cain found another group of people?? Where did they come from?? The mention of giants but not much was said about them. The Book of Enoch answers some of these and before anyone says that book is heretic, the Bible quotes from it several times.

Reformed Lutheran said:

To presume that carnivores were not killing for meat, prior to the fall, is to presume what is not written in the scripture,, what is not written in the scientific truths,, and what is not obvious in nature itself.. that thought goes against all reason.

Were great white sharks eating sea weed before the fall ? How about T-rexes, were they eating bananas ?

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What is obvious today isn't necessarily the norm....

What if you're having a fever and coughs, and a mayfly went by to study you, it will say, you have an average temperature of 100F, and coughs so often and classify it as "normal".

But of course, a mayfly lives for only a day, it has no idea that you were much healthier the day before and what it saw today,
is what is has seen for its entire life... It wouldn't have a clue that you are sick and need healing...


I wouldn't look at the Book of Genesis as a 100% trustworthy source, like if Adam and Eve were the first people on Earth, how come Cain met a bunch of people he did not met before??

SwordmanJr said:

A higher authority says that death entered the world as a result of sin "...by one man..."...Adam. You might read Romans 5:12 for verification. I prefer to believe the inspired word of God to your irrationalizations.

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Thats an extremely elementary unspiritually minded understanding of 'death' in Pauls argument here.. physical death, like the death of bugs, plants, animals,, etc. is the farthest thing from Pauls mind.

Spiritual death in Adam because of sin is the 'type' -- Spiritual life in Christ because of justification is the 'anti-type',, is the point of Paul's argument in Romans 5,, if you through in biological 'death' of creatures or men, it warps pauls whole argument.

timewerx said:

In the Book of Enoch, it was said that the giants sinned against the animals and mankind and devoured their flesh

The corruption of the fallen angels, which resulted to the giants caused much violence and bloodshed upon this world.

There's no instance of anything devouring another prior to the corruption of the fallen angels, neither did wars exist.


There's a huge "?" in Genesis like how did Cain found another group of people?? Where did they come from?? The mention of giants but not much was said about them. The Book of Enoch answers some of these and before anyone says that book is heretic, the Bible quotes from it several times.

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Actually, I see no redeeming value in that book. In chapter 40 it is written:

And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’

Sorry, dude, but that, along with quite a number of other problems in that book, render it untrustworthy.