The theory of evilution seems to be contradictory.

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OldWiseGuy

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Every explanation of evolutionary theory includes the element of huge amounts of time. It's the most important part of the recipe. Without millions of years of incremental changes evolution isn't possible, and you're left with..(drumroll).......creation. :bow:
 
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bhsmte

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Yes a THEORY not PROVEN.

Is your computer working?
Does your refrigerator keep food cold?
Does your air conditioner keep the house cool?
Do you ever watch television?
Do the lights go on when you flip the switch?
Have you ever had a diagnostic test at the doctor?
Have you had vaccines?
Does your car start and get you where you want to go?

I could go on and on, but you rely on all of the above which you have because of unproven scientific theories. Better hope they hold up.
 
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bhsmte

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Every explanation of evolutionary theory includes the element of huge amounts of time. It's the most important part of the recipe. Without millions of years of incremental changes evolution isn't possible, and you're left with.........creation. :bow:

Time doesn't cause the change, it only measures how long it takes.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Time doesn't cause the change, it only measures how long it takes.

It's a necessary element, just as time is a necessary element in allowing dough to rise or to bake in the oven. Without the necessary time there is no 'bread', or evolution. I went to my dentist's office today and I had to allot 20 minutes of travel time before I even left the house.
 
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bhsmte

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It's a necessary element, just as time is a necessary element in allowing dough to rise or to bake in the oven. Without the necessary time there is no 'bread', or evolution. I went to my dentist's office today and I had to allot 20 minutes of travel time before I even left the house.

Does time cause the dough to rise, or are the ingrediants in the dough the driving factor? You see, you could still have time pass and if the ingredients that cause the change are not present, time has no impact. Time only measure the time it takes, for the change, it is not the force, which causes the change.

If you fly in a jet from New York to LA and it takes 5 hours of time, was it the time that passed that caused the plane to travel from New York to LA, or was it the jet engines and the planes design, that allowed it to fly?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Does time cause the dough to rise, or are the ingrediants in the dough the driving factor? You see, you could still have time pass and if the ingredients that cause the change are not present, time has no impact. Time only measure the time it takes, for the change, it is not the force, which causes the change.

If you fly in a jet from New York to LA and it takes 5 hours of time, was it the time that passed that caused the plane to travel from New York to LA, or was it the jet engines and the planes design, that allowed it to fly?

I detect a 'doubtful disputation' (Biblespeak for 'useless argument').
 
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Dr GS Hurd

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One common feature of discussions about evolution with creationists is that they are certain they have a better understanding of science than real scientists. They typically make absurd assertions about what "evolutionists believe..." and flee from any actual evidence to correct their many errors of fact, logic, and inference.

I have participated in thousands over the decades that I have taught human biology and behavior. I have also found that I personally benefit from having some wine first.
 
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bhsmte

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One common feature of discussions about evolution with creationists is that they are certain they have a better understanding of science than real scientists. They typically make absurd assertions about what "evolutionists believe..." and flee from any actual evidence to correct their many errors of fact, logic, and inference.

I have participated in thousands over the decades that I have taught human biology and behavior. I have also found that I personally benefit from having some wine first.

Wine helps.
 
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klutedavid

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Hello all.

I thought I might let the dust settle a bit before submitting a reply.

We probably all need some clarification at this stage.

What evolutionary events that may have occurred to the human genome in the past, is not
available to us. Assumptions, approximations, inference and ideology, though are never in
short supply.

The general point I was trying to make in the intial post, was simply that man did not seem to have
the necessary inherited traits to survive in the wild. Certainly not as a ground dwelling creature,
whether man was social or not, really does not address the real issue. There are certain required
attributes, compulsory attributes, that man must have in his genetic makeup to be able to survive,
on the ground in Africa.

These genetic attributes are displayed in all their abundance, by all ground dwelling creatures
in Africa, and this by observation! Speed, numbers, stamina, camoflage, heightened sight, hearing
and smell. Alertness and the ability to detect a threat a great distance is crucial to survival in Africa.

A thick hide and extreme acceleration are very common attributes. Man fails on almost all of the
above attributes. Granted man could spot a threat at some distance, but the problem is man is a
slow moving biped, how does he evade the six hungry female lions? Forget endurance, hungry
lions will outrun a man on any day of the week.

This is essentially ground zero for the theory of evolution.

Four legs seems to be one very common and special attribute, that is necessary for ground dwelling
creatures to survive. Man has only two legs and this presents a decisive problem to the question
of man's survival in this hostile world. As far as predators are concerned, four legs is good, two
legs is a guaranteed meal, an extinction event waiting to happen.

Since man has two legs, we are forced to assume that man always had tools and shelter (fenced).
If man's ancestor walked on the ground, this ancestor was also armed. Mankind without tools is
not an option, never was an option. In the distant past the number of predators in Africa was very
high. Mankind without tools in this very hostile environment, walking around on the ground is a
null event.

So ground zero is really the difficult question, if man had to have tools, he had tools on the
very first journey. If man (or ancestor) had tools the moment he stepped down from the trees,
he also must have had these tools while up in the trees. Man would not need tools high in the
tree canopy though. So how or when does man develop these essential tools?

Some care should be exercised here, by tools we are not talking about sticks. Lions are
powerful predators, and even a high powered rifle is necessary to stop one, but don't miss.
Better to see early man in numbers and heavily armed, anything less would be foolhardy.

On the subject of hunting and running around on a savannah in Africa, for two or more
hours in pursuit of a creature (endurance). In the modern era, yes you may get away with
that form of hunting. Go back three thousand years and no one is running around on any
savannah in Africa and surviving. Lion numbers were far too high to execute this form of
endurance hunting back then.

Not to mention walking for two to three hours with a slab of fresh meat, hanging over your
shoulder. This would certainly be a null event in ancient times.
 
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COMALite J

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Yes a THEORY not PROVEN.
About your use of the word “theory” — well, this guy says it best:

If “theory” meant what you think it means, then music must not be proven to actually exist! That includes hymns and other Christian music, the angel choirs of Heaven including the one that serenaded shepherds, etc.
Products48168-635x575-1030624.jpg
669857-L.jpg
The-Complete-Idiots-Guide-to-Music-Theory.jpg
musicTheoryTextbookCover.gif
everything-music-theory-book-complete-guide-taking-your-marc-schonbrun-paperback-cover-art.jpg
MusicTheoryForDummies
music-theory-guide.gif
 
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crjmurray

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One common feature of discussions about evolution with creationists is that they are certain they have a better understanding of science than real scientists. They typically make absurd assertions about what "evolutionists believe..." and flee from any actual evidence to correct their many errors of fact, logic, and inference.

I have participated in thousands over the decades that I have taught human biology and behavior. I have also found that I personally benefit from having some wine first.

I read your blog. You mentioned my hometown recently. Small world.
 
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The Barbarian

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What evolutionary events that may have occurred to the human genome in the past, is not
available to us.

No, that's a mistake. There are numerous ways to figure out what changes have occurred in the human genome. Would you like to talk about that?

The general point I was trying to make in the intial post, was simply that man did not seem to have
the necessary inherited traits to survive in the wild.

Even civilization-soft people, dropped into a wilderness, more often than not, survive.

Certainly not as a ground dwelling creature,
whether man was social or not, really does not address the real issue. There are certain required
attributes, compulsory attributes, that man must have in his genetic makeup to be able to survive,
on the ground in Africa.

All the other animals in Africa are leery of humans. For good reason. We kill them. The Kung tribesmen still sometimes live the way our distant ancestors did. And they are feared by all the other animals. Even chimps are usually given a wide berth by other predators. It's just not worth the risk of going into a mob of chimps.

These genetic attributes are displayed in all their abundance, by all ground dwelling creatures
in Africa, and this by observation! Speed, numbers, stamina, camoflage, heightened sight, hearing
and smell. Alertness and the ability to detect a threat a great distance is crucial to survival in Africa.

Chimps are relatively low on your index. Yet savanna chimps ioccasionally take young leopards. Humans, having more coordination and better tools, actively hunt big predators with primitive weapons.

Of course, you're assuming that today's humans are like ancient ones. They seem to have been more chimplike in strength and body mass. (chimps are so muscular that they can't swim; they sink)

So ground zero is really the difficult question, if man had to have tools, he had tools on the
very first journey.

Chimps, confronted with a leopard, mob up and make clubs. And they can strike hard enough to break spines. If they can do it, early humans could do it.

This seems to be a poor argument against evolution.
 
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Shemjaza

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Things that aren't alive don't become alive, no matter how much time and incrementalization you throw in. As for macro and micro I mean thrm in the same sense as my undergrad in biology defines them. They're basic terms anyone can look up.
We don't have a clear instance of abiogenesis, it's just an inference, but life isn't constructed from any material we can't find in nature.

Macro evolution in science is usually used to define evolution beyond the species level... and that's trivial to demonstrate. So, I fail to see your point.
staff edit

Or I can use science, evidence and sprinkle it all with common politeness.
 
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The Barbarian

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People who say "it's just a theory" don't understand what a theory is.

images

Anyone who has spent some time reading or debating creationists is almost certain to hear the argument that “evolution is just a theory”. This is usually stated as if it were a blow against evolution, but in reality, nothing could be further from the truth. Though this statement is technically correct – evolution is indeed a theory – people who do not understand the implications of that word as it is used in science often think it is saying something different from what it actually means. -
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/evolution-is-just-a-theory/#sthash.QgTt6jZD.dpuf
 
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Gene2memE

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The general point I was trying to make in the intial post, was simply that man did not seem to have the necessary inherited traits to survive in the wild. Certainly not as a ground dwelling creature, whether man was social or not, really does not address the real issue. There are certain required attributes, compulsory attributes, that man must have in his genetic makeup to be able to survive, on the ground in Africa.

What about Denisovians, Homo erectus, Homo antecessor, Homo neanderthalensis and Homo heidelbergensis?

All of these lack those "compulsory attributes" you say they need for survival, but all of them existed in Africa and spread to other continents (Europe, the Middle East, Asia, Nth America) between 3 million and 100,000 years ago.

Some, like Homo neanderthalensis and Homo erectus, lived in Africa for 100,000s of years before spreading? How, with their very similar attributes to Homo sapiens, did they survive?

Could it possibly be that our ancestors have been tool users for at least 2.5 million years? That as a social species we developed cooperative strategies, like group travel and language, and use of weapons to deal with predators? That our large brains allowed us to remember areas of danger, plan routes ahead and deal more intelligently with threats.

Nah, its not like we have evidence for any of this.

http://www.livescience.com/46415-hominin-skulls-reveal-neanderthal-evolution.html
http://www.livescience.com/15689-evolution-human-special-species.html
http://www.livescience.com/46662-early-humans-evolving-traits-revealed.html
http://www.livescience.com/5540-human-brains-big.html
http://www.livescience.com/40505-earliest-humans-one-species.html
http://www.livescience.com/7948-human-origins-crazy-family-tree.html
 
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gpldisciple

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People who say "it's just a theory" don't understand what a theory is.

images

Anyone who has spent some time reading or debating creationists is almost certain to hear the argument that “evolution is just a theory”. This is usually stated as if it were a blow against evolution, but in reality, nothing could be further from the truth. Though this statement is technically correct – evolution is indeed a theory – people who do not understand the implications of that word as it is used in science often think it is saying something different from what it actually means. -
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/evolution-is-just-a-theory/#sthash.QgTt6jZD.dpuf

The most important FACT is creationists and scientists agree on one very important point. Something can not come from nothing, so the first something had to be created. I personally have had trouble with the time issue. Then I realized God controls time, time is only something we as humans experience. How we perceive it is with our limited awareness. 9 million years, 6 thousand years, 7 days, it's all a perception.
 
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Dr GS Hurd

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The first error made in the opening comment was, "The theory of evolution proposes that mankind once lived in the trees of Africa." The error is "mankind," and "Africa." The last ancestor shared between the lineages that eventually lead to humans and chimpanzees "lived in trees." They were hardly "mankind." Fossil data is sparse about when, or where the two lineages diverged. The major problem has been the "where" because that tells us where we need to be excavating. Only recently have we learned that the where was southern Europe, specifically the Iberian Peninsula. Knowing this more effort (AKA money) can be directed to work in the actual rock most likely to be productive.

That the greatest evolutionary work on human took place in Africa should be common knowledge. It just was not where the first division between ancient lineages occurred.

The oldest currently known apes that were African bipedal apes, "two footed," are currently the Sahelanthropus tchadensis found in rock dated to ~7 million years ago. From strictly fossil data, we would expect there to still be older fossils waiting to be discovered.
 
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Dr GS Hurd

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The first numbered "deep contradiction" is focused on bipedal versus quadrupedal locomotion.

There are two sorts of errors; factual and logical.

The factual errors are regarding the weakness of bipedal movement. There are three major advantages most people don't know. The first is that a biped can change direction much faster than a quadruped. Think of a NFL quarterback on a busted play. Secondly, a biped sheds heat more efficiently than a quadruped. In the warm African sun that is a critical advantage. It is what human ancestors could avoid predators at least some of the time. Even an antelope dodges the lions often enough for their many species to survive. Thirdly, an upright posture (at least during much of the day) frees the hands for creative things like pointed sticks, or tree branch clubs. Since the modern chimpanzees are using these types of tools, we can assume that the most ancient of our Hominid ancestors could as well. This gives a solid advantage to walking.

Another advantage of a vertical head is the ability to see a bit farther than a similarly sized quadruped.

There are two more errors; one obvious, one less obvious. One is that the oldest of our ancestors that we clearly favor (Ardipithecus) were at least partially arboreal (lived in trees). The second is obvious, our common ancestors were not hunters for millions of years. There are about 4,000,000 years between Sahelanthropus tchadensis and the first hint of hunting. Those first hints are from stone tools, and marks on bones that suggest butchery. Since modern Chimps make tools to hunt, I expect that hunting or scavenging was a common activity. But, the chimps have evolved just was we have. I think it is obvious that we will need direct archaeological data to know just when active hunting was invented.
 
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