Why I'm Anti-Theistic

Davian · Sep 2, 2015

Tree of Life said:
According to the Scriptures it is something that you and I know but we actively suppress.

One might assume that the writers of the bible were motived to create passages that would promote the religion they were creating, rather than to accurately reflect reality.

I don't consider reading the glossy brochure issued by the manufacturer of a product as the best means of exploring reality.

Eudaimonist · Sep 2, 2015

anonymous person said:
No Mark. That was the example. "Don't do that".

Ah, okay!

So you actually heard those words? That's interesting. It reminds me of Socrates, who is said to have experienced something similar.

eudaimonia,

Mark

anonymous person · Sep 2, 2015

Eudaimonist said:
Ah, okay!

So you actually heard those words? That's interesting. It reminds me of Socrates, who is said to have experienced something similar.

eudaimonia,

Mark

I did not hear the words with my ears.

anonymous person · Sep 2, 2015

Davian said:
One might assume that the writers of the bible were motived to create passages that would promote the religion they were creating, rather than to accurately reflect reality.

I don't consider reading the glossy brochure issued by the manufacturer of a product as the best means of exploring reality.

Don't derail the thread into apologetics. I noticed you have a habit of doing that.

Eudaimonist · Sep 2, 2015

anonymous person said:
I did not hear the words with my ears.

I meant mentally, like hearing your own internal dialog.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Davian · Sep 2, 2015

anonymous person said:
Don't derail the thread into apologetics.

That's not up to me. I am only asking for clarification, not a defence.

Will you be getting to those posts directed at yourself?

I noticed you have a habit of doing that.

anonymous person · Sep 2, 2015

Eudaimonist said:
I meant mentally, like hearing your own internal dialog.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Yes.

Ana the Ist · Sep 2, 2015

anonymous person said:
I did not hear the words with my ears.

I think it's a bit more credible if you did hear it "with your ears".

How do you distinguish between the voice of god and your own internal conscious? Have you ever heard them both at the same time?

Tree of Life · Sep 2, 2015

Davian said:
So your theology says that we are all believers, just some of us lie about it.

In a sense.

Putting the accuracy of your mind-reading abilities aside for the moment, if we are all believers, don't we all go to Heaven? Why all of the religious rigmarole?

We are not all believers in the sense you're getting at here. As James says, even the demons believe (and tremble!). Saving faith is not just a belief that God exists but a personal and relational trust in God. There's a big difference between believing that airplanes exist and trusting that an airplane will safely get you from point A to point B.

What's so terrible? We get to go to heaven. Ice cream and circuses for everyone!

God's presence is terrible to those who hate him, rebel against him, and are under his condemnation. But by his grace he can transform our hearts and dispositions so that his presence is a wonderful comfort and not a terror.

Tree of Life · Sep 2, 2015

Davian said:
I'm happy to hear that. Have you considered that telling others how they think, and being wrong about it, may not be the best approach for making your theology appear coherent to those same individuals?

My only concern is declaring God's word faithfully, clearly, and lovingly. Whether or not it makes sense to you is not within my power.

Eudaimonist · Sep 2, 2015

Tree of Life said:
God's presence is terrible to those who hate him, rebel against him, and are under his condemnation. But by his grace he can transform our hearts and dispositions so that his presence is a wonderful comfort and not a terror.

Curiously, that's the plot of George Orwell's novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, substituting God with Big Brother, of course.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Davian · Sep 2, 2015

Tree of Life said:
In a sense.

If I am not consciously lying, is it still lying? Or do you now have to believe that I am lying about not lying?

We are not all believers in the sense you're getting at here. As James says, even the demons believe (and tremble!). Saving faith is not just a belief that God exists but a personal and relational trust in God. There's a big difference between believing that airplanes exist and trusting that an airplane will safely get you from point A to point B.

In reality, I would be at the "define what you mean by [airplane]" stage.

God's presence is terrible to those who hate him,

I have no hate towards a character in a book.

rebel against him,

"I am not convinced" is not "rebelling".

and are under his condemnation.

Whatever for, if all can be forgiven?

But by his grace he can transform our hearts and dispositions so that his presence is a wonderful comfort and not a terror.

Religion as a comfort blanket. I get that part.

Davian · Sep 2, 2015

Tree of Life said:
My only concern is declaring God's word faithfully, clearly, and lovingly. Whether or not it makes sense to you is not within my power.

It makes sense to me; religion as a means of control of a populace, right down to attempts at thought policing. Carrot and the stick, and all that.

Your theology appears to be fundamentally flawed, in that you have to assume that everyone that disagrees with you is lying about not believing, or you are holding them responsible for things beyond their conscious control (belief).

What I am here to observe is what you do when confronted with this conundrum; do you acknowledge and attempt to resolve the flaw, or do you carry on as if nothing happened?

bhsmte · Sep 2, 2015

Tree of Life said:
My only concern is declaring God's word faithfully, clearly, and lovingly. Whether or not it makes sense to you is not within my power.

If this is your only concern, why would you need to convince yourself, that people who disagree with your faith belief, are lying?

anonymous person · Sep 2, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
I think it's a bit more credible if you did hear it "with your ears".

How do you distinguish between the voice of god and your own internal conscious? Have you ever heard them both at the same time?

One way God speaks to me is through/by my conscience.

Archaeopteryx · Sep 2, 2015

Still waiting for you to address this @anonymous person.

Archaeopteryx said:
anonymous person said:

Before they die, every person will be given enough light to make "honest unbelief" as you call it, impossible.

Click to expand...

And yet countless people die not believing in the salvific doctrines of Christianity. So this statement appears to be wrong. In any event, why should it matter? You already conceded that honest nonbelief is forgivable.

Ana the Ist · Sep 2, 2015

anonymous person said:
One way God speaks to me is through/by my conscience.

Ok

How do you know the difference? That it's god and not just you?

Dialogist · Sep 2, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
When we are faced with a difficult choice, we want truth to guide us. Specifically, we want it to guide us to outcomes that our emotions have made us desire. Truth doesn't do that. Truth guides us to outcomes that may be awful, difficult, or possibly even unbearable. Truth may also guide us to outcomes that we love, are enjoyable, or even beautiful. The point is that truth doesn't care.

Attempting to make difficult choices without truth leads to problems. It may provide a temporary relief...it may even seem to lead to success. Making choices without the truth, or worse in denial of truth, eventually results in conflict. It results in a conflict with reality...and that is a conflict that cannot be won. All you can do once you're faced with reality is accept it....or distort your perception of the truth even further.

Ultimately, that is what religion is to me. A massive distortion of the truth.

You are making two statements here - one objective and one subjective.

The objective statement is that "truth doesn't care" about what we think, which certainly is true. Something is true or not true irrespective of what we think.

On the other hand, you make the subjective statement that religion is to you a massive distortion of the truth.

I would ask:

1. Do you believe this about any religion in general or only about specific religions with which you are familiar?

2. How did you personally discern that every religion you are familiar with is a massive distortion of the truth?

(BTW, I happen to agree with almost everything you say, but not with the generalization)

Ana the Ist · Sep 2, 2015

Dialogist said:
You are making two statements here - one objective and one subjective.

The objective statement is that "truth doesn't care" about what we think, which certainly is true. Something is true or not true irrespective of what we think.

On the other hand, you make the subjective statement that religion is to you a massive distortion of the truth.

I would ask:

1. Do you believe this about any religion in general or only about specific religions with which you are familiar?

2. How did you personally discern that every religion you are familiar with is a massive distortion of the truth?

(BTW, I happen to agree with almost everything you say, but not with the generalization)

1. Only those religions with which I'm familiar, admittedly. When it comes to all of them, I'm only familiar with a minority. However, this minority all have characteristics in common with each other. Likewise, if we examine the types of religion according to their place in history and culture, I believe you can find a pattern emerging. This pattern goes from simple explanation of the unknown (truth claims) to manipulation of those truth claims for the purpose of establishing authority/control.

2. See answer #1.

anonymous person · Sep 2, 2015

Davian said:
It makes sense to me; religion as a means of control of a populace, right down to attempts at thought policing. Carrot and the stick, and all that.

Your theology appears to be fundamentally flawed, in that you have to assume that everyone that disagrees with you is lying about not believing, or you are holding them responsible for things beyond their conscious control (belief).

What I am here to observe is what you do when confronted with this conundrum; do you acknowledge and attempt to resolve the flaw, or do you carry on as if nothing happened?

Speaking of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, Paul says that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God said it that settles it. You might disagree but that is your problem not ours. Let God be true and every man a liar.

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