The 5th Seal is the 1st Resurrection

iamlamad · Aug 30, 2015

It is amazing how someone can take what is so clearly written and make it say something else.

It can be done, however, when preconceptions exist.

Who are those in the 5th seal, seen under the altar?

"the souls of them that were slain for the word of God"

Please note carefully the words "were slain." They are martyrs of the church age. I just heard on the radio this morning that 20 million (20,000,000) people were put to death because they were Christians in the 20th century.

Note carefully that in the discription of the great crowd too large to number (in Chapter 7) there is not even a hint that they have died or where slain. It is a DIFFERENT group. They group too large to number is the dead in Christ who have risen plus those who were alive that were caught up with the dead in Christ: in other words, those raptured.

Berean777 · Aug 30, 2015

Died for the Word of God. Did you know that there are two groups that are talked about in Revelation of John in a symbolic way.

The Old Testament saints would be identified as:
Servants of our God
Died for the Word of God
Sing the song of Moses

The New Testament saints would be identified as:
Died for the lamb of God
Made their robes white by the blood the lamb
Sing the song of the lamb

Note before the New Testament, that is before the messiah came all those departed saints who were under the altar in Abraham's Bosom were servants of God who lived and died for the Word of God.

Afterwards those who would die in Christ are making their robes white by the blood of the lamb that redeemed them.

Two groups both the former sea and the latter sea are spoken of symbolically.

precepts · Aug 30, 2015

iamlamad said:
It is amazing how someone can take what is so clearly written and make it say something else.

It can be done, however, when preconceptions exist.

Who are those in the 5th seal, seen under the altar?

"the souls of them that were slain for the word of God"

Please note carefully the words "were slain." They are martyrs of the church age. I just heard on the radio this morning that 20 million (20,000,000) people were put to death because they were Christians in the 20th century.

Note carefully that in the discription of the great crowd too large to number (in Chapter 7) there is not even a hint that they have died or where slain. It is a DIFFERENT group. They group too large to number is the dead in Christ who have risen plus those who were alive that were caught up with the dead in Christ: in other words, those raptured.

You are not that naive. The unsealing of the book with the 7 seals happens in heaven, Dan 7:9-10 and Rev 4. None resurrected are seen until the book is unsealed. So, those under the altar must be the great multitude taken out of the great tribulation because when asking for God's vengeance on those on the earth who killed them, they are told to rest a little season until their fellow servants should be killed as they were, which proves that little season is the 1,000yrs reign, the reason why they were given white robes.

God's vengeance comes after that season which is the 2nd Resurrection - what he described in the Olivet discourse as his 2nd coming - the answer to the riddle of "that generation not tasting death until they see the Son of Man coming into his kingdom." That is the day of God's wrath and vengeance on those who slew those who went thru the great tribulation. And I already posted the verses proving the 2nd resurrection is that day, the 6th seal, by comparing the verses. It is a resurrection and not a rapture. The rest of the dead live not until after the thousand yrs were fulfilled, which, again, is the 6th seal.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man also confirms the day. The rich man being in the lake of fire after being judged at the Great White Throne judgment asks God to send someone to warn his brothers still on the earth of the pending torment. He is in the lake of fire with the smoke of his burning ascending up forever. That is the 2nd Resurrection, Rev 20.

In conclusion, the entering into the New Yah-ru-Shalem is when Christ enters into his kingdom, as stated in the verses about his 2nd coming, when he separates the sheep from the goat at the Great White Throne judgment, also Dan 12:1-3. There's no two different groups dressed in white robes. The text doesn't support it. The sequence of the seals proves it. The 144,000 sealed are sealed after the releasing of the first 4 seals because the first 4 seals are the one who does the hurting.

precepts · Aug 30, 2015

Berean777 said:
Died for the Word of God. Did you know that there are two groups that are talked about in Revelation of John in a symbolic way.

The Old Testament saints would be identified as:
Servants of our God
Died for the Word of God
Sing the song of Moses

The New Testament saints would be identified as:
Died for the lamb of God
Made their robes white by the blood the lamb
Sing the song of the lamb

Note before the New Testament, that is before the messiah came all those departed saints who were under the altar in Abraham's Bosom were servants of God who lived and died for the Word of God.

Afterwards those who would die in Christ are making their robes white by the blood of the lamb that redeemed them.

Two groups both the former sea and the latter sea are spoken of symbolically.

Nonsense, the 6th seal being the 2nd resurrection and the "day of the Lord's vengeance" proves the great multitude are the souls under the altar. That is why the 6th seal follows the 5th seal, because the 5th seal is the 1st resurrected and the 6th seal is the 2nd. Nowhere in Revelation are two different groups arrayed in white robes pointed out. You're making mountains out of mole hills and straining on the gnat as usual.

iamlamad · Aug 30, 2015

precepts said:
You are not that naive. The unsealing of the book with the 7 seals happens in heaven, Dan 7:9-10 and Rev 4. None resurrected are seen until the book is unsealed. So, those under the altar must be the great multitude taken out of the great tribulation because when asking for God's vengeance on those on the earth who killed them, they are told to rest a little season until their fellow servants should be killed as they were, which proves that little season is the 1,000yrs reign, the reason why they were given white robes.

God's vengeance comes after that season which is the 2nd Resurrection - what he described in the Olivet discourse as his 2nd coming - the answer to the riddle of "that generation not tasting death until they see the Son of Man coming into his kingdom." That is the day of God's wrath and vengeance on those who slew those who went thru the great tribulation. And I already posted the verses proving the 2nd resurrection is that day, the 6th seal, by comparing the verses. It is a resurrection and not a rapture. The rest of the dead live not until after the thousand yrs were fulfilled, which, again, is the 6th seal.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man also confirms the day. The rich man being in the lake of fire after being judged at the Great White Throne judgment asks God to send someone to warn his brothers still on the earth of the pending torment. He is in the lake of fire with the smoke of his burning ascending up forever. That is the 2nd Resurrection, Rev 20.

In conclusion, the entering into the New Yah-ru-Shalem is when Christ enters into his kingdom, as stated in the verses about his 2nd coming, when he separates the sheep from the goat at the Great White Throne judgment, also Dan 12:1-3. There's no two different groups dressed in white robes. The text doesn't support it. The sequence of the seals proves it. The 144,000 sealed are sealed after the releasing of the first 4 seals because the first 4 seals are the one who does the hurting.

iamlamad · Aug 30, 2015

Berean777 said:
Died for the Word of God. Did you know that there are two groups that are talked about in Revelation of John in a symbolic way.

The Old Testament saints would be identified as:
Servants of our God
Died for the Word of God
Sing the song of Moses

The New Testament saints would be identified as:
Died for the lamb of God
Made their robes white by the blood the lamb
Sing the song of the lamb

Note before the New Testament, that is before the messiah came all those departed saints who were under the altar in Abraham's Bosom were servants of God who lived and died for the Word of God.

Afterwards those who would die in Christ are making their robes white by the blood of the lamb that redeemed them.

Two groups both the former sea and the latter sea are spoken of symbolically.

John was not talking about those dying of a normal death. He was talking about MARTYRS. I am speaking of those seen at the 5th seal under the altar.

Berean777 · Aug 30, 2015

iamlamad said:
John was not talking about those dying of a normal death. He was talking about MARTYRS. I am speaking of those seen at the 5th seal under the altar.

Can you see that they were the old testament saints waiting in their lot like Daniel until the messiah came the first time.

Under the altar is pointing to the old covenant altar that is spoken of many times in the older testament. Like the servant who was killed on the altar odd God.
In the new testament there is no altar because in revelation of John it data that the Lord is the temple and the altar thereof.

iamlamad · Aug 30, 2015

precepts said:
You are not that naive. The unsealing of the book with the 7 seals happens in heaven, Dan 7:9-10 and Rev 4. None resurrected are seen until the book is unsealed. So, those under the altar must be the great multitude taken out of the great tribulation because when asking for God's vengeance on those on the earth who killed them, they are told to rest a little season until their fellow servants should be killed as they were, which proves that little season is the 1,000yrs reign, the reason why they were given white robes.

God's vengeance comes after that season which is the 2nd Resurrection - what he described in the Olivet discourse as his 2nd coming - the answer to the riddle of "that generation not tasting death until they see the Son of Man coming into his kingdom." That is the day of God's wrath and vengeance on those who slew those who went thru the great tribulation. And I already posted the verses proving the 2nd resurrection is that day, the 6th seal, by comparing the verses. It is a resurrection and not a rapture. The rest of the dead live not until after the thousand yrs were fulfilled, which, again, is the 6th seal.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man also confirms the day. The rich man being in the lake of fire after being judged at the Great White Throne judgment asks God to send someone to warn his brothers still on the earth of the pending torment. He is in the lake of fire with the smoke of his burning ascending up forever. That is the 2nd Resurrection, Rev 20.

In conclusion, the entering into the New Yah-ru-Shalem is when Christ enters into his kingdom, as stated in the verses about his 2nd coming, when he separates the sheep from the goat at the Great White Throne judgment, also Dan 12:1-3. There's no two different groups dressed in white robes. The text doesn't support it. The sequence of the seals proves it. The 144,000 sealed are sealed after the releasing of the first 4 seals because the first 4 seals are the one who does the hurting.

I am not naive at all. You may think I am because of your thinking.

Let's get this straight: John saw some things that were history, some things that were concurrent with his life, and then some things that were future to his life (and in fact still future to use today). The future things he saw were as if he was there watching them happen, so much of it is written in English as past tense.

Next, there still remains two seals to be broken or unsealed. They will be events still future to us today. That would be the 6th seal and the 7th, which is the official opening of the 70th week of Daniel. We all know that Saul created martyrs very early in the church. They and many that were added after Paul were who were seen by John under the altar. We can be sure Stephen was among them. They had no idea how long it would be before God avenged their untimely deaths. If they were martyrs of the 70th week, they would KNOW they would only have to wait 7 years or less. No, they were and are CHURCH AGE martyrs, and they were told they must wait for the very last church age martyr. When would that be in Revelation? The VERY NEXT SEAL! So they wait from seal 5 to seal 6. John is VERY PRECISE in his chronology.

Always remember, those with preconceptions that are in error always find a need to REARRANGE Revelation - as if God did not know what order the future would play out. HOW SILLY! OF COURSE God knows. John does not arrive at the 1000 year reign in Revelation until chapter 20! Why would you even imagine those seen in chapter 5, in the church age, would have to wait through the entire 1000 year reign of Christ? AS it is the first ones have had to wait nearly 2000 years. Please, don't make them wait another 1000!

God's vengeance comes after that season which is the 2nd Resurrection

NONSENSE! God's vengence begins at the VERY NEXT SEAL! Go back and read the words of John: "The day of His wrath has come." Translated that means JUDGMENT begins. When? At the 6th seal.

The rest of the dead live not until after the thousand yrs were fulfilled, which, again, is the 6th seal.

This is more confused than ever! The thousand year reign of Christ does not BEGIN until Revelation 20, which is AFTER the 70th week (Seal 7 through vial 7; Chapter 8 through chapter 16).

Get this STRAIGHT: first are the 7 seals that allow the scroll to be opened. Once it is opened, then the 7 trumpets can be sounded. Once they are sounded, then the 7 vials can be poured out. All this is JUDGMENT. John wrote it in the very same order it will take place.

Your take on the rich man and Lazarus is miles off center. This was a PAST TENSE event when Jesus told the story!
The rich man was in HELL, not in the lake of fire. NO ONE will be in the lake of fire until after the Beast and false prophet are throne in: they are the first humans into the lake of fire. What you are missing is that HELL has fire.

There are CERTAINLY two groups: those who have died as martyrs, as one group, and those who are caught up in the rapture as the second group. You know, that rapture you don't believe in. Paul believed in it and wrote about in 1 Thes. 4 & 5. It comes just before the 6th seal events. So the Bride is caught up at the 6th seal, then seen in heaven before the 7th seal.

You err yet again in thinking the first four seals do the "hurting!" WAKE UP! The hurting does not being until after the 7th seal is broken and then it is the TRUMPET JUDGMENTS that begin to hurt the earth.

iamlamad · Aug 30, 2015

precepts said:
Nonsense, the 6th seal being the 2nd resurrection and the "day of the Lord's vengeance" proves the great multitude are the souls under the altar. That is why the 6th seal follows the 5th seal, because the 5th seal is the 1st resurrected, and the 6th seal is the 2nd. Nowhere in Revelation are two different groups arrayed in white robes are pointed out. You're making mountains out of mole hills and straining on the gnat as usual.

WRONG again. The 5th seal shows the martyrs of the church age (there were about 20 million martyred during the 20th century) and they are told to wait until the very last one has been martyred as they were - as church age martyrs. When will be the last church age martyr? Of course when the church age ENDS with the 6th seal which introduces the Day of the Lord. At this time the church age is history. So the waiting time is ONLY between the 5th and 6th seal.

By the way, for the readers, the church has been waiting between these seals since the beginning of the church age. But our waiting time is ALMOST OVER. The sun has turned dark and the moon to blood to fulfill Joel's prophecy. VERY SOON NOW the 6th seal will be broken or opened and the world will experience a world wide earthquake - which will be Paul's SUDDEN DESTRUCTION.

iamlamad · Aug 30, 2015

Berean777 said:
Can you see that they were the old testament saints waiting in their lot like Daniel until the messiah came the first time.

Under the altar is pointing to the old covenant altar that is spoken of many times in the older testament. Like the servant who was killed on the altar odd God.
In the new testament there is no altar because in revelation of John it data that the Lord is the temple and the altar thereof.

Sorry! The Old Testament saints were taken to heaven by Jesus Himself. They have been waiting in heaven since Jesus rose from the dead. Go back and read it! They want VENGEANCE for their murders. But they know that vengeance belongs to God, so they ask Him how long. WHAT? The altar they were seen under was and is IN HEAVEN! Did you forget that John was called up into heaven?

Berean777 · Aug 30, 2015

iamlamad said:
Sorry! The Old Testament saints were taken to heaven by Jesus Himself. They have been waiting in heaven since Jesus rose from the dead. Go back and read it! They want VENGEANCE for their murders. But they know that vengeance belongs to God, so they ask Him how long. WHAT? The altar they were seen under was and is IN HEAVEN! Did you forget that John was called up into heaven?

Yes I believe the Old Testament Saints who were crying under the altar and were saying how long, then they were given white resurrection garments and were taken up to heaven. Now they are with the temple who is Christ our Lord.

iamlamad · Aug 31, 2015

Berean777 said:
Yes I believe the Old Testament Saints who were crying under the altar and were saying how long, then they were given white resurrection garments and were taken up to heaven. Now they are with the temple who is Christ our Lord.

You are reading into a verse information that is simply NOT THERE. What? Do you think all the Old Testament saints were MURDERED? John TELLS US who they are. They are martyrs of the New Covenant. This is AFTER Jesus rose from the dead and before the start of the 70th week (which finished up the Old Covenant). It is about 95 AD and John has seen Jesus and has been called up to the throne room of heaven. He begins to watch a VISION. It begins with John looking into the throne room where Jesus is not there, where the Holy Spirit is still there, and where a search for one worthy to break the seals ends in failure. From eternities past to eternities future, there has been (and will be) only one very short period of time, about 32 years, when the second person of the Godhead was NOT in the throne room. That was during the time Jesus was in a flesh and blood body on earth. In this vision, John is seeing the throne room of the past - past to his days around 95 AD. He is seeing into the throne room JUST BEFORE Jesus rose from the dead.

We don't know how long John wept. It could have been hours or days. But in the NEXT search for one worthy, Jesus was found. This gives us TIMING: Jesus had just risen from the dead. Time? About 32 AD. Search! Look! Try and find 2000 years between any verses from then (when Jesus was found worthy) and the first seals. I cannot find it. It is simply NOT THERE.

The truth of scripture is that the first 5 seals were broken the moment Jesus arrived in heaven after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. Well, He DID ascend, and John got to watch, in vision form, the moment Jesus arrived in heaven. He went straight to the Father, got the book and began breaking seals. the first hint of a long wait is found at the 5th seal.

The TRUTH is, the Old Testament saints are in heaven and were NOT murdered, and are NOT crying out for vengeance. Those under the altar are NEW TESTAMENT MARTYRS.

Berean777 · Aug 31, 2015

iamlamad said:
You are reading into a verse information that is simply NOT THERE. What? Do you think all the Old Testament saints were MURDERED? John TELLS US who they are. They are martyrs of the New Covenant. This is AFTER Jesus rose from the dead and before the start of the 70th week (which finished up the Old Covenant). It is about 95 AD and John has seen Jesus and has been called up to the throne room of heaven. He begins to watch a VISION. It begins with John looking into the throne room where Jesus is not there, where the Holy Spirit is still there, and where a search for one worthy to break the seals ends in failure. From eternities past to eternities future, there has been (and will be) only one very short period of time, about 32 years, when the second person of the Godhead was NOT in the throne room. That was during the time Jesus was in a flesh and blood body on earth. In this vision, John is seeing the throne room of the past - past to his days around 95 AD. He is seeing into the throne room JUST BEFORE Jesus rose from the dead.

We don't know how long John wept. It could have been hours or days. But in the NEXT search for one worthy, Jesus was found. This gives us TIMING: Jesus had just risen from the dead. Time? About 32 AD. Search! Look! Try and find 2000 years between any verses from then (when Jesus was found worthy) and the first seals. I cannot find it. It is simply NOT THERE.

The truth of scripture is that the first 5 seals were broken the moment Jesus arrived in heaven after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. Well, He DID ascend, and John got to watch, in vision form, the moment Jesus arrived in heaven. He went straight to the Father, got the book and began breaking seals. the first hint of a long wait is found at the 5th seal.

The TRUTH is, the Old Testament saints are in heaven and were NOT murdered, and are NOT crying out for vengeance. Those under the altar are NEW TESTAMENT MARTYRS.

Yes I believe seal 5 was opened after Mary M was told not to touch him. At those point he ascended up into heaven to the Father/Ancient of Days and wad given a Kingdom that shall not be destroyed but will eventually overcome all the world.

The fifth seal also opens the graves of the old covenant saints (Matthew 27:52-53). They were the ones crying under the altar in Abraham's Bosom.

You had previously stated.

The TRUTH is, the Old Testament saints are in heaven and were NOT murdered, and are NOT crying out for vengeance. Those under the altar are NEW TESTAMENT MARTYRS.

If we quote the verse we note it is a message to two groups of people's both Old and New and from this we can determine who those people were that were crying under the altar of God.

Revelation 6:9-11
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

It seems that those crying under the altar of God came before the fellow servants also and their brethren. It seems that those coming after them are their sons so to speak and they are the original fathers of faith from Abraham down to Daniel.

How do we know this?

Because those crying under the altar were before Christ ascended into heaven after his resurrection to recieve the Kingdom from the Father.

We also should note that the word killed doesn't mean that they are murdered , rather it is to say that they must also be born then eventually die whilst keeping the faith even unto death. A person can be a martyr for Jesus even if he is not thrust with the enemies sword. The person's persecution in his lifetime is considered being killed for the Lord, meaning dead to the world.

vinsight4u · Aug 31, 2015

vinsight4u · Aug 31, 2015

iamlamad · Aug 31, 2015

Berean777 said:
Yes I believe seal 5 was opened after Mary M was told not to touch him. At those point he ascended up into heaven to the Father/Ancient of Days and wad given a Kingdom that shall not be destroyed but will eventually overcome all the world.

The fifth seal also opens the graves of the old covenant saints (Matthew 27:52-53). They were the ones crying under the altar in Abraham's Bosom.

You had previously stated.

If we quote the verse we note it is a message to two groups of people's both Old and New and from this we can determine who those people were that were crying under the altar of God.

It seems that those crying under the altar of God came before the fellow servants also and their brethren. It seems that those coming after them are their sons so to speak and they are the original fathers of faith from Abraham down to Daniel.

How do we know this?

Because those crying under the altar were before Christ ascended into heaven after his resurrection to recieve the Kingdom from the Father.

We also should note that the word killed doesn't mean that they are murdered , rather it is to say that they must also be born then eventually die whilst keeping the faith even unto death. A person can be a martyr for Jesus even if he is not thrust with the enemies sword. The person's persecution in his lifetime is considered being killed for the Lord, meaning dead to the world.

If you have to redefine the words in a verse to make it say what you want it to say, I am wasting my time.

You have forgotten the TIME lapsed for the first seal - the sending forth of the church to make disciples of all men, then the attacks of the devil to stop the advance of the church, as in seals 2, 3, and 4.

By the time seal five is broken and opened TIME has elapsed and the church has advanced from Jerusalem to Samaria and then on into the Gentile world. There is simply no need to redefine a Greek word to make a theory fit. JUST LET GO OF A FALSE THEORY!

The Greek word "sphazō" that "were slain" is translated from is used in other places:

1Jo 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew G4969 his brother. And wherefore slew G4969 he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Cain, as we know, murdered Abel.

Rev 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, G4969 having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Jesus was murdered. He did not die a natural death.
Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, G4969 and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain G4969 to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Again, Jesus did not die a natural death. He died nailed to a Roman cross.

Rev 6:4
And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill G4969 one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

These are those who die in WAR. It is again not a natural death. War KILLS people.

Here is the same verse in other translations:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the people slaughtered because of God's word and the testimony they had.

International Standard Version
When the lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the word of God and the testimony they had given.

NET Bible
Now when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been violently killed because of the word of God and because of the testimony they had given.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been murdered for the word of God and for the testimony of Yeshua which they had

Weymouth New Testament
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw at the foot of the altar the souls of those whose lives had been sacrificed because of the word of God and of the testimony which they had given.

Strong's gives us a definition:

to slay, slaughter, butcher
to put to death by violence

As you can see, if you are not blinded by preconceptions, when John wrote this verse he had MURDER and MARTYR in mind.

Those under the altar at the 5th seal were those who had been martyred from the days of Stephen onward. This verse has NOTHING to do with Old Testament saints. Neither is there ANY connection between these and the elders of the Old Covenant who were raised when Jesus died and was raised. They were not martyrs; these are.

Berean777 · Aug 31, 2015

You mean to say that only those violently murdered were selected. What about those not violently murdered but who stay faithful to Christ even onto natural death.

There seems to be disparity when you narrow down the search according to one single word don't you think.

precepts · Sep 1, 2015

iamlamad said:
I am not naive at all. You may think I am because of your thinking.

Let's get this straight: John saw some things that were history, some things that were concurrent with his life, and then some things that were future to his life (and in fact still future to use today). The future things he saw were as if he was there watching them happen, so much of it is written in English as past tense.

Next, there still remains two seals to be broken or unsealed. They will be events still future to us today.

See! This is were we disagree.

In order for you to claim the 6th and 7th seal are still pending, you have to ignore the scripted facts.

You have to ignore the fact there's only one AOD; ignore the fact it's done by the Greek little horn in Dan 8 and 11, 200 hundred yrs before Christ; and ignore the fact it lasts a little over the other half of the week, meaning it lasts for 1,290 days/yrs.

You also have to ignore the fact Dan 9:27-28 confirms that when it is set up in the middle of the week of the covenant, that it will last until the "consummation," the consummation being the entering into the New Yahrushalem, which occurs immediately after the 2nd resurrection.

There are so many facts that you have to ignore that I could go on and on.

iamlamad said:
That would be the 6th seal and the 7th, which is the official opening of the 70th week of Daniel.

Again, you're speculating, and where's the proof? Daniel's 70wks isn't 2,000yrs and counting.

iamlamad said:
We all know that Saul created martyrs very early in the church. They and many that were added after Paul were who were seen by John under the altar. We can be sure Stephen was among them. They had no idea how long it would be before God avenged their untimely deaths. If they were martyrs of the 70th week, they would KNOW they would only have to wait 7 years or less. No, they were and are CHURCH AGE martyrs, and they were told they must wait for the very last church age martyr. When would that be in Revelation? The VERY NEXT SEAL! So they wait from seal 5 to seal 6. John is VERY PRECISE in his chronology.

There's nothing in the text that even suggest anything about a "Church Age," much less martyrs. Those under the altar are those killed in the NT times, yes. But there is no "Church Age martyrs" among them. Scripture doesn't point out any church age martyrs. The "great tribulation" is where all those clothed in white robes are brought out from. You're the one speculating on Church age martyrs. Everyone in white robes, those under the altar and the great multitude, all came out of the "great tribulation."

iamlamad said:
Always remember, those with preconceptions that are in error always find a need to REARRANGE Revelation - as if God did not know what order the future would play out. HOW SILLY! OF COURSE God knows. John does not arrive at the 1000 year reign in Revelation until chapter 20! Why would you even imagine those seen in chapter 5, in the church age, would have to wait through the entire 1000 year reign of Christ? AS it is the first ones have had to wait nearly 2000 years. Please, don't make them wait another 1000!

There's nothing in Revelation that suggests any Church age martyrs. And there isn't any time lapse between the two groups - one killed during Paul and Stephens time and the others during a Church age. That's ridiculous and unscripted.

iamlamad said:
God's vengeance comes after that season which is the 2nd Resurrection

NONSENSE! God's vengence begins at the VERY NEXT SEAL! Go back and read the words of John: "The day of His wrath has come." Translated that means JUDGMENT begins. When? At the 6th seal.

But that is what I said. The 6th seal is the day of the Lord's vengeance, the 2nd resurrection, and the fulfillment of the Olivet discourse.

iamlamad said:
The rest of the dead live not until after the thousand yrs were fulfilled, which, again, is the 6th seal.

This is more confused than ever! The thousand year reign of Christ does not BEGIN until Revelation 20, which is AFTER the 70th week (Seal 7 through vial 7; Chapter 8 through chapter 16).

It's more ridiculous to think that other than the message to the 7 churches everything thing else isn't the beginning of the 1,000yrs reign.

iamlamad said:
Get this STRAIGHT: first are the 7 seals that allow the scroll to be opened. Once it is opened, then the 7 trumpets can be sounded. Once they are sounded, then the 7 vials can be poured out. All this is JUDGMENT. John wrote it in the very same order it will take place.

You don't understand the seals, trumps, and vials because they are not in chronological order. The 4 seals/horsemen are the ones who are released to hurt the earth, trees, etc. It is listed in there seals. They are told not to hurt anything in Rev 7 until the servants of God are sealed in the 5th seal. They are also the 5th and 6th trumps: the Beast and the 4 released, Euphrates angels; released to hurt the earth, trees, etc.

iamlamad said:
Your take on the rich man and Lazarus is miles off center. This was a PAST TENSE event when Jesus told the story!
The rich man was in HELL, not in the lake of fire. NO ONE will be in the lake of fire until after the Beast and false prophet are throne in: they are the first humans into the lake of fire. What you are missing is that HELL has fire.

The rich man could not have been in Hell because he lifted up his eyes and saw Lazarus and God. He even spoke to them, and God and Lazarus would no way have been in Hell. I even provided out the verse in Revelation that confirms the lake of fire burning forever before God's throne. It's undeniable.

My position is plausible, while yours is speculative

iamlamad said:
There are CERTAINLY two groups: those who have died as martyrs, as one group, and those who are caught up in the rapture as the second group.

Speculation again. The rapture isn't mentioned anywhere in Revelation. You're speculating. All seen in Revelation are "resurrected," the reason why it says the "rest" of the dead lived not until the thousand yrs. It doesn't say the rest of the dead and the left behind living that weren't raptured. You're adding to scripture.

iamlamad said:
You know, that rapture you don't believe in. Paul believed in it and wrote about in 1 Thes. 4 & 5. It comes just before the 6th seal events. So the Bride is caught up at the 6th seal, then seen in heaven before the 7th seal.

Paul is not referencing a rapture in 1 Thes 4 and 5. But it's ironic that Paul would mention "not preventing those who are 'asleep'.' What do you suppose he is talking about? since that's not the first time Paul mentions those asleep at Christ's return.

You have to keep ignoring these essential details to keep your past down theories together, which is sad.

iamlamad said:
You err yet again in thinking the first four seals do the "hurting!" WAKE UP! The hurting does not being until after the 7th seal is broken and then it is the TRUMPET JUDGMENTS that begin to hurt the earth.

What does Rev 7:1-3 say? and isn't that before the 7th seal?

The 7th seal is Rev 8.

precepts · Sep 1, 2015

iamlamad said:
WRONG again. The 5th seal shows the martyrs of the church age (there were about 20 million martyred during the 20th century) and they are told to wait until the very last one has been martyred as they were - as church age martyrs. When will be the last church age martyr? Of course when the church age ENDS with the 6th seal which introduces the Day of the Lord. At this time the church age is history. So the waiting time is ONLY between the 5th and 6th seal.

By the way, for the readers, the church has been waiting between these seals since the beginning of the church age. But our waiting time is ALMOST OVER. The sun has turned dark and the moon to blood to fulfill Joel's prophecy. VERY SOON NOW the 6th seal will be broken or opened and the world will experience a world wide earthquake - which will be Paul's SUDDEN DESTRUCTION.

The "great tribulation" that those clothed in with robes, washed in the blood of the Lamb, comes out of is not the 20th century Church age. It is the "great tribulation" following the desolation of the temple. Christ said "immediately" after those days would the heavens be darkened. It is talking about those martyred during that time. Your stumbling block is not acknowledging the fact there's only one AOD done 200 yrs before Christ that lasts for 1,290yrs to the "consummation." That's what makes me know Revelation is a resurrection that happened during the reign of the 11th Roman horn/king.

It is a parable that you have yet to comprehend because you choose to ignore the grammatical facts, as well as failing to comprehend that scripture has to be read line upon line, precept upon precept, since it's not without fault! It has it's errors, whether human or intentional.

iamlamad · Sep 1, 2015

precepts said:
The "great tribulation" that those clothed in with robes, washed in the blood of the Lamb, comes out of is not the 20th century Church age. It is the "great tribulation" following the desolation of the temple. Christ said "immediately" after those days would the heavens be darkened. It is talking about those martyred during that time. Your stumbling block is not acknowledging the fact there's only one AOD done 200 yrs before Christ that lasts for 1,290yrs to the "consummation." That's what makes me know Revelation is a resurrection that happened during the reign of the 11th Roman horn/king.

It is a parable that you have yet to comprehend because you choose to ignore the grammatical facts, as well as failing to comprehend that scripture has to be read line upon line, precept upon precept, since it's not without fault! It has it's errors, whether human or intentional.

Anyone that imagines that the scriptures have errors and is faulty is on very dangerous ground. Perhaps John 3:16 has errors. Muslims think so. Perhaps the whole chapter 3 of John is faulty. How would anyone know?

The TRUTH is, it is the Word of God and we can TRUST IT - just not every word of some English translations!

Since you seem lost, allow me to help you find your way.

The abomination of Desolation that Jesus spoke of (he did not speak of the historic one but a future one) will take place in the book of Revelation in chapter 11, but is not written, because John did not see it. However, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven when the man of sin enters the most holy place in the temple, to "mark" the exact midpoint of the week.

The days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will not being in the book of Revelation until late in chapter 14 - NOT BEFORE. Then, some time after the 7th vial ends the 70th week, Jesus returns, EXACTLY what Matthew 24 tells us.

The 5th Seal is the 1st Resurrection

Lamad

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Newbie

Newbie

Lamad

Lamad

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Lamad

Lamad

Lamad

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Lamad

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Contributor

Contributor

Lamad

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Newbie

Newbie

Lamad

Similar threads