Do you think that homosexuals go to hell 2

paulm50 said:

So we can assume it's been changed to fit what men wanted.

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LOL, I don't think so. The verse under discussion was being used by someone who isn't too well-informed about what the Bible actually says to try to "prove" that Jesus said that gays are "born that way". The original greek refers to eunuchs...some eunuchs being eunuchs from birth, some self-made, as in celibate, and some man-made.

paulm50 said:

Agreed. It has to be enjoyable to watch for the billions to wacth it. Sex sells.

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Sure. You can sell anything from tractors to chewing gum if you plaster a pretty young girl or two in bikinis over it.

paulm50 said:

None of the things you point out are exclusive to today. The bible writes rules on selling women and children for the pleasure of their owners. They also had prostitutes, rape, and all the rest. The question is how do we deal with it properly in the modern world.

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I think you may be overstating the case a bit, with "rules on selling women and children", but your point is well taken. I do seem to recall something about how, near the time of the end, it will be "as in the days of Noah"...

paulm50 said:

Sex education, legalised controlled and inspected brothels.

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We have had sex education in our schools for some time now. It doesn't seem to be helping much...in fact, it could be making things even worse.
You don't think we've done enough to destroy marriage? Now we need legalized brothels. In the name of the seven hells, what next?

paulm50 said:

We live in a world that glorifies sex, because sex sells. Which is how we were created. And that world started 10,000s of years ago.

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There is a heck of a lot more to life than sex. Perhaps we ought to glorify love.

paulm50 said:

We are related to apes. Are you saying we should live like swans or penguins?

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Here's a thought. How about we try living like civilized human beings?

paulm50 said:

That's a personal opinion, try one with your partner, or a girl and see how it goes.

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If you'll glance over to the left, you'll see that I am a widow. I have no partner.
The idea of sex with a girl sickens me. Yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck.
And I'm not about to pick up some strange man and take him home to my bed. Not a chance, not happening, forget it, no way.

paulm50 said:

Or go back to the time when a man could easily divorce a woman. A woman wasn't allowed to divorce a man.

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Seriously, wouldn't it be better if we took a little time and got to know the person we are marrying? Especially if there is the intention of raising a family together. Kids really deserve to be raised by both of their parents...
And you know...sex does tend to lead to kids. Which is the whole point.

paulm50 said:

I married for keeps, people change. My first two wives weren't prepared to change back and I could not change for them. It would of meant sadness.

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You don't think divorce means sadness?

paulm50 said:

Are you married?

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I was very happily married for a number of years. We had a rather large family...seven kids. We didn't set out to have that many...but birth control didn't seem to work for us. In fact, the baby was born after I'd had a tubal ligotomy.
However, our husband and father was taken from us by a drunk driver before the baby was out of her diapers.
We hadn't really thought about life insurance, and I had married right out of high school, so I didn't really have an awful lot of marketable skills.
For several years I was too busy just trying to make ends meet to worry much about sex. I won't even go into the grief...
Then I met a man...yes, we had an affair. But then I discovered his big secret. He was married. He couldn't divorce her, because they had children...which didn't exactly make me feel any better about the situation. I could have loved him, and I know that he had very deep feelings for me...and my kids had come to think of him as their Daddy. But I couldn't keep on pretending. I had to let him go. That was quite awhile ago...there's been no one else since.
So, that's my story.

paulm50 said:

Personal view. Single people always wake up alone, or sometimes with a friend. At least they always don't go to bed alone.

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I'm sorry. Sex just for the sake of having sex just doesn't appeal to me. I know that I could not "make it" unless there was an emotional attachment as well.

paulm50 said:

Sexual drives are inside us. A vibrator is good, an electric massed is fantastic for girls, Pifco Magic Wand, an Acuvibe, or similar works even better. Using them with someone else is about sharing the pleasure, giving and receiving. Obviously one has to drop the notion that one is being used, invaded, forced. It's about sharing something with someone you would like to share something with.

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And for me to want to share my bed with a man, there would have to be more going on than just sex. It's the way I'm wired.

paulm50 said:

If you're happier alone then fine. For the majority it's better with someone else. So long as the emotions of deep attachment aren't there.

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Like I told you, I can't get excited about a man unless there is an emotional attachment...my sex drive will not engage unless my heart is turned on first. That's just the way it is.

TheBarrd said:

Sure. You can sell anything from tractors to chewing gum if you plaster a pretty young girl or two in bikinis over it.

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Women buy sex just as much. Because it's something we want.

I think you may be overstating the case a bit, with "rules on selling women and children", but your point is well taken. I do seem to recall something about how, near the time of the end, it will be "as in the days of Noah"...

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Did it change anything?

We have had sex education in our schools for some time now. It doesn't seem to be helping much...in fact, it could be making things even worse.
You don't think we've done enough to destroy marriage? Now we need legalized brothels. In the name of the seven hells, what next?

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It helps in the countries where it's taught properly. As for marriage, a piece of paper doesn't make a union, not even doing it in front of a priest. A union is far far more. If it can't be stopped, and it can't be, legalisation is the obvious way to go. Bring it to where it can be controlled and taxed.

There is a heck of a lot more to life than sex. Perhaps we ought to glorify love.

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Absolutely, sex is way down the list on good things in life.

Here's a thought. How about we try living like civilized human beings?

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Great goal. Now define what that means.

If you'll glance over to the left, you'll see that I am a widow. I have no partner.
The idea of sex with a girl sickens me. Yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck.
And I'm not about to pick up some strange man and take him home to my bed. Not a chance, not happening, forget it, no way.

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Sorry to hear that, I hope you had a great marriage. I struck out twice and now know what real love is.
OK but what about others who may want to try it? We are discussing something that's a very personal matter.

Seriously, wouldn't it be better if we took a little time and got to know the person we are marrying? Especially if there is the intention of raising a family together. Kids really deserve to be raised by both of their parents...
And you know...sex does tend to lead to kids. Which is the whole point.

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Yes, and part of that getting to know each other, is in the bedroom.

You don't think divorce means sadness?

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Yes, certainly. Just less than staying in a union that was destroying both of us.

I was very happily married for a number of years. We had a rather large family...seven kids. We didn't set out to have that many...but birth control didn't seem to work for us. In fact, the baby was born after I'd had a tubal ligotomy.
However, our husband and father was taken from us by a drunk driver before the baby was out of her diapers.
We hadn't really thought about life insurance, and I had married right out of high school, so I didn't really have an awful lot of marketable skills.
For several years I was too busy just trying to make ends meet to worry much about sex. I won't even go into the grief...
Then I met a man...yes, we had an affair. But then I discovered his big secret. He was married. He couldn't divorce her, because they had children...which didn't exactly make me feel any better about the situation. I could have loved him, and I know that he had very deep feelings for me...and my kids had come to think of him as their Daddy. But I couldn't keep on pretending. I had to let him go. That was quite awhile ago...there's been no one else since.
So, that's my story.

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Friends with benefits. Had a few myself. Many started as a quick tumble. My current marriage, to the one true love in my life. Started as a quick tumble, liked it, stayed the night, for more tumbles, met again, for more sex. Third date we realised we were head over heels in love. She's 27 years my junior, older then my daughter. Adopting a more reserved approach would have me sad and lonely.

I'm sorry. Sex just for the sake of having sex just doesn't appeal to me. I know that I could not "make it" unless there was an emotional attachment as well.

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What if you met a guy you liked, fancied and felt it might be nice to sleep with him. Who knows it may be a new friend with benefits.

And for me to want to share my bed with a man, there would have to be more going on than just sex. It's the way I'm wired.

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Truthfully I'm wired differently. And boy am I pleased about that. would be alone and unloved if not.

Like I told you, I can't get excited about a man unless there is an emotional attachment...my sex drive will not engage unless my heart is turned on first. That's just the way it is.

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Emotional attachment is something that needs to be built.

I'm not saying go bar jumping, jumping in and out of bed for the sake of sex. Just be more open. Friend with benefits is a great way of putting it.

We are different people, because of different lives. Both are right for us. We should not impose our morals on each other. We can just tell everyone reading the possibilities there are.

ToBeLoved said:

Are Christians obsessed with homosexuals? Mehbe.

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The more conservative types are. Often it's a psychological defense mechanism to cover up their own same-sex attractions. For others, they just need a scapegoat to look down on and view as contrary to their beliefs in order to build their own righteousness up.

TheBarrd said:

I very much doubt that Jesus had read Clement of Alexandria's comments.

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Once again, there were multiple types of Eunuchs in Roman days. What we typically call a Eunuch (a castrated man) is referred to by Jesus as Eunuchs made that way by men. He lists 2 other groups of Eunuchs that do not include castration.

I'm pretty sure that when He said what He said, that He was referring to eunuchs, not gay men.

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Why are you so sure about that? Evidence seems to indicate he did.

The Bible very clearly condemns gay sex.

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That's your opinion, not a fact. Careful examination of original language, culture, and context reveals a much more complicated issue than gays are bad. But some people have no desire to admit they might be wrong. That's called pride.

It is a perversion of the natural sex drive, just like any other perversion.

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Uh, tell that to God's entire creation that is full of species who naturally engage in it and gain essential benefits from it. The evidence is in God's creation and his creation tells us homosexuality is a natural part of it.

Now, I do understands that Biblical laws only apply to those of us who are Christians, and that we can't always expect secular law to reflect God's law...more's the pity...but God's law does state that homosexuality is a sin.

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Christians aren't under the law. The Bible says if you judge by the law, you will be judged by it.

Being "born that way" is no excuse...we were all born into sin. We all have our cross to bear...but if we love the One Who shed His blood for us on Calvary, we will, with His help, strive to put our sins away from us.
I know it has been difficult for gays. It is also difficult for kleptomaniacs, or for pathological liars...sin is not an easy thing to fight. But the battle is worth winning...

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Uh no, those are really really bad comparisons to being gay.

I would also ask you your opinion on Jesus and Paul's discussions on marriage and celibacy. They both affirm celibacy is a gift most people don't have. Paul wishes everyone could be that way, because he viewed it as more holy. But he knows that's not possible. Seeing as in your view, gays are required by threat of damnation to be celibate against their will, how does that line up with what Paul and Jesus say?

stevenfrancis said:

In what way is original sin not supported by the Bible? It's pretty much right there in straight forward fashion right in Genesis.

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Seeing as Jews don't believe in Original Sin, no it doesn't exist in the Old Testament. Original Sin was actually developed by Augustine based on Paul's words in Romans.

paulm50 said:

Most religions are. The why is the big question.

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Judaism isn't. 70% of Jews are pro-gay.

Marius27 said:

Once again, there were multiple types of Eunuchs in Roman days. What we typically call a Eunuch (a castrated man) is referred to by Jesus as Eunuchs made that way by men. He lists 2 other groups of Eunuchs that do not include castration.

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A eunuch is not the same as a gay man. Besides, if you think this verse is referring to gay men, then what about lesbians? Are they eunuchs, too?

Marius27 said:

Why are you so sure about that? Evidence seems to indicate he did.

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I've not seen any such evidence. You certainly have not presented any.

Marius27 said:

That's your opinion, not a fact. Careful examination of original language, culture, and context reveals a much more complicated issue than gays are bad. But some people have no desire to admit they might be wrong. That's called pride.

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Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Lev 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

I did not write these verses, they were there long before any of us were ever even thought of. But they are quite clear...sexual activity between two men, or for that matter between a man or a woman and an animal, is an abomination. It is a capitol offense. It is condemned. This may be the 21st century, and the times, they are a-changin'...but God does not change. Gay sex is a no-no.

And I'm sure you know that there are also verses in the NT, but if you really need me to do so, I'll post those for you as well.

Marius27 said:

Uh, tell that to God's entire creation that is full of species who naturally engage in it and gain essential benefits from it. The evidence is in God's creation and his creation tells us homosexuality is a natural part of it.

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That has to be the very worst argument for gay sex that there is. Listen, I grew up on a farm. I've seen all sorts of animal sex. Animals do things that would land a human being in jail in a very quick heart beat...and rightly so. But one thing I can tell you for sure is this...gay sex among animals is not nearly as prevalent as you have been led to believe. Yes, I've seen cows licking one another's...uh...well, licking one another...but the second Senor Bull shows up, those ladies forget all about being gay.
Have you ever seen...or heard...kitty cat sex? It is quite violent. Oh, and boy kitties prefer girl kitties. On a farm that had more cats than any other kind of critter, I can't remember ever having encountered a gay cat. Or chickens. Chicken love is even more violent than kitty love...in fact, I have actually seen where Mr. Rooster actually killed Miss Hen with his armourous advances. There is interspecies sex. My dog has never been convinced that my daughter's cat does not find him irresistible, even though the cat has tried really hard to explain this to him on numerous occasions. I think it might be a language barrier.
Anyhow, this contention that the gay community seems to make...that civilized human beings ought to conduct their sex lives as animals do, just doesn't have any merit to it at all.

Marius27 said:

Christians aren't under the law. The Bible says if you judge by the law, you will be judged by it.

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So I've been told...mostly by people looking for a cloak for their sin.

Marius27 said:

Uh no, those are really really bad comparisons to being gay

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Uh, no. Those are a list of sins. The point, which you seem to have missed, is that we are all "born that way". See, back a long time ago, God put the first man into this garden...well, you know the story. Sin entered the world, along with it's nasty companion, death...and since that time, we are all born with a "sin nature". So, of course, you were "born that way". We all were. For some, it's homosexuality. For others, it is some other sin. Fornication, in all of it's ugly guises, has always run rampant. This is hardly anything new.

Marius27 said:

I would also ask you your opinion on Jesus and Paul's discussions on marriage and celibacy. They both affirm celibacy is a gift most people don't have. Paul wishes everyone could be that way, because he viewed it as more holy. But he knows that's not possible. Seeing as in your view, gays are required by threat of damnation to be celibate against their will, how does that line up with what Paul and Jesus say?

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Actually, celibacy is really not all that tough. When my husband died, I thought I would die with him...but someone had to stay here and raise our brood. (Long story.) I did have one affair...but it ended when I found out he was married. Since then, I have been celibate. It's been a little over fifteen years now, I think. And if I can do it...believe me, I was an oversexed little...well, anyway, if I can do it, anyone can. It just takes a bit of willpower...

Marius27 said:

Seeing as Jews don't believe in Original Sin, no it doesn't exist in the Old Testament. Original Sin was actually developed by Augustine based on Paul's words in Romans.

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Much of christianity is based on Paul, when he dropped the Judaic laws. It angered many early followers of Jesus. They felt thet Jesus was a Jewish Messiah.

Marius27 said:

Judaism isn't. 70% of Jews are pro-gay.

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"The Torah forbids the homosexual act, known as mishkav zakhar, but has nothing to say about homosexuality as a state of being or a personal inclination. "

Marius27 you are trying to twist the words of the bible to fit yur own ideas. It says what it says, no more, no less.

Neogaia777 said:

We have to come in agreement with God on what sin is and confess and try to repent...

If I said my smoking cigarettes is not a sin, and I refused to confess and try my best to repent of it, then I would be in danger of going to hell...

Same goes for homosexuals, if they refuse to admit it's a sin and don't see any need to confess and try to repent of it, then their in danger of going to hell.

But, a homosexual who does feel sorry for and admits that his/her homosexuality is a sin, and confesses and does their best to repent of it, but just cant seem to (like my smoking cigarettes) but/and believes in Jesus Christ, we could see them in heaven...

God Bless!

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God can deliver us of any sin:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Paul said such were some of you, and he referenced homosexuality among the kinds of sins they were identified with. The new birth is exactly what Gods word says it is; we become new people who can live the righteous life God requires. That means victory over sin. There is no sin that is more powerful than the blood of Jesus.

You can be delivered from your smoking, but you also have to understand the spiritual battle you face to be delivered. When we are controlled by sin, it is because of a stronghold in our lives. A stronghold is a like a fortress in our souls which the enemy can operate out of with impunity. It is ground within ourselves that we have ceded to Satan and he has taken us captive through that to do his will.

Luke 11:21-22

“When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe. But when someone stronger attacks and overpowers him, he takes away the armor in which the man trusted and divides up his plunder."

The strongman is Satan, the possessions are those areas of your life you have ceded to him, and the stronger than he is the Lord. When we have totally submitted ourselves to the Lord and are willing to do His will no matter what, that is when Jesus will come in and destroy the stronghold:

James 4:7

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

God doesn't put His finger on something and then refuse to give us the power to accomplish the task. If you are being convicted about your smoking, it means God wants to deliver you. Romans 8:13 tells us this is possible:

For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

We put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit. When God is leading you to something, He will lead you through it. John 15:5 tells us that apart from Jesus we can do nothing, including overcoming sin. It is not trying hard enough, it is realizing that you can't do it under your own strength no matter how hard you try. You cannot overcome the strongman; his goods are at peace. You need to let the stronger than he in. God bless brother

Marius27 said:

It's not an opinion, it's a scientific fact. Even the most devout of Christians who have tried to turn straight, have failed after years and years of prayer and methods to do it.

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Darkness is a scientific fact too...but no darkness (or homosexuals) will enter the kingdom.

Marius27 said:

Jesus says gays are born that way.

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Where? Let's have a quote.

thesunisout said:

God can deliver us of any sin:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Paul said such were some of you, and he referenced homosexuality among the kinds of sins they were identified with. The new birth is exactly what Gods word says it is; we become new people who can live the righteous life God requires. That means victory over sin. There is no sin that is more powerful than the blood of Jesus.

You can be delivered from your smoking, but you also have to understand the spiritual battle you face to be delivered. When we are controlled by sin, it is because of a stronghold in our lives. A stronghold is a like a fortress in our souls which the enemy can operate out of with impunity. It is ground within ourselves that we have ceded to Satan and he has taken us captive through that to do his will.

Luke 11:21-22

“When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe. But when someone stronger attacks and overpowers him, he takes away the armor in which the man trusted and divides up his plunder."

The strongman is Satan, the possessions are those areas of your life you have ceded to him, and the stronger than he is the Lord. When we have totally submitted ourselves to the Lord and are willing to do His will no matter what, that is when Jesus will come in and destroy the stronghold:

James 4:7

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

God doesn't put His finger on something and then refuse to give us the power to accomplish the task. If you are being convicted about your smoking, it means God wants to deliver you. Romans 8:13 tells us this is possible:

For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

We put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit. When God is leading you to something, He will lead you through it. John 15:5 tells us that apart from Jesus we can do nothing, including overcoming sin. It is not trying hard enough, it is realizing that you can't do it under your own strength no matter how hard you try. You cannot overcome the strongman; his goods are at peace. You need to let the stronger than he in. God bless brother

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If a person was to repent, confess and turn to god. Would he be forgiven and have a place in heaven?

ScottA said:

Darkness is a scientific fact too...but no darkness (or homosexuals) will enter the kingdom.
Where? Let's have a quote.

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It's about him talking about men born Eunuchs. There's been a lot of discussion claiming this is the case.

paulm50 said:

Much of christianity is based on Paul, when he dropped the Judaic laws. It angered many early followers of Jesus. They felt thet Jesus was a Jewish Messiah.
"The Torah forbids the homosexual act, known as mishkav zakhar, but has nothing to say about homosexuality as a state of being or a personal inclination. "

Marius27 you are trying to twist the words of the bible to fit yur own ideas. It says what it says, no more, no less.

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Nope, I'm really not. Taking a superficial reading of a bunch of vague verses doesn't prove your belief. The Bible also says the Sun revolves around the Earth and the Earth is flat, which we know is nonsense. You guys always ignore language, context, and culture and those verses mean nothing without those elements.

Marius27 said:

Nope, I'm really not. Taking a superficial reading of a bunch of vague verses doesn't prove your belief. The Bible also says the Sun revolves around the Earth and the Earth is flat, which we know is nonsense. You guys always ignore language, context, and culture and those verses mean nothing without those elements.

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Then post a quote that contradicts this. As for culture, if bibles can change according to cultures, point to where the bible says that.

Yes they got the Sun revolves around the Earth and the Earth is flat, wrong. Some people claim it's right, we're just reading wrong ignoring language, context, and culture and those verses mean nothing without those elements.

Touche.

Neogaia777 said:

Anyone who doesn't come into agreement with God about what sin is, is in rebellion against God, and anyone who doesn't confess and have a repentant heart is in danger of hell, including gays...

God Bless!

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Define what sin is. Please.

paulm50 said:

If a person was to repent, confess and turn to god. Would he be forgiven and have a place in heaven?

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Confessing and repenting doesn't mean we become perfect. When we receive Jesus as Lord and Savior, He is taking us imperfections and all. We don't immediately get all sin out of our life; it is a process called sanctification, where the Lord leads us to overcome sin and be purified into His likeness. A person who is struggling with homosexuality can be forgiven just as someone struggling with any kind of lust can be forgiven. It is not about the sin, it is about our submission to the Lord to purge all sin out of life. In my experience, there are some sins it took me awhile to get over, and some that I was delivered of instantly. It depends on how the Lord is leading someone, but it is not like you screw up once and you're out. As long as you are walking with the Lord and repenting of all known sin you can be forgiven. Legalism says, disobey the law and you're done. Grace says there is a provision for sin, the blood of Jesus Christ. However, we cannot abuse that either and willfully sin because we have a covering. To do that is to trample the Son of God underfoot and insult the Spirit of grace.

Neogaia777 said:

It's in the Bible. God clearly lists what he thinks sin is... we just ask "why" and question and defy him like a child that just has to know for themselves and we decide to do it, and then and only then, after the consequences come, do we really know what our Father was talking about and then agree with him (usually)

"almost" every carnal, primitive, fleshly, and especially selfish desire is a sin...

God Bless!

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Much of what's listed in the bible as sin, has been dropped. So a list, linked to bible texts would help. Because otherwise it's open to misinterpretation. We need clear guidance here.

thesunisout said:

Confessing and repenting doesn't mean we become perfect. When we receive Jesus as Lord and Savior, He is taking us imperfections and all. We don't immediately get all sin out of our life; it is a process called sanctification, where the Lord leads us to overcome sin and be purified into His likeness. A person who is struggling with homosexuality can be forgiven just as someone struggling with any kind of lust can be forgiven. It is not about the sin, it is about our submission to the Lord to purge all sin out of life. In my experience, there are some sins it took me awhile to get over, and some that I was delivered of instantly. It depends on how the Lord is leading someone, but it is not like you screw up once and you're out. As long as you are walking with the Lord and repenting of all known sin you can be forgiven. Legalism says, disobey the law and you're done. Grace says there is a provision for sin, the blood of Jesus Christ. However, we cannot abuse that either and willfully sin because we have a covering. To do that is to trample the Son of God underfoot and insult the Spirit of grace.

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So people confessing, repenting and allowing god into their life, on their deathbed. Had the best of both worlds.

That's what I never understood about the RCC. They were big on confessing and repenting. Giving the evil the opportunity to throw off guilt and carry on hurting others.