What do Muslims think of the hadith below?

TG123

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wa alaikum...lol, I'm not planning on any long debates. I'm glad you're safe. Hearing about those types of stories gets me so upset especially because I know so many support our foreign policy and dismiss what happens to Palestinians as something they deserve because they're terrorists (and/or Israel is "defending" itself from them).
Thanks for the kind words and yeah, it is very upsetting and terrible how many people are ignorant about what is happening. It is true that sometimes Palestinians do commit violent acts against Israeli civilians that I think can and should be called acts of terrorism... although the Israeli army and settlers do this on a much larger scale. Unlike Palestinian violence against Israelis, Israeli violence against Palestinians is almost never punished. I don't support violence from either side, particularly when civilians are killed, but one side is living under occupation and suffers a majority of the violence, while the other side is doing the occupying and suffers the minority of it. It is definitely not an "even conflict". Even a week in Tel Rumeida or a village like Kafr Kaddum should hopefully open a person's eyes as to the realities of the situation.

Being back home is in some ways a lot harder than being there, at least in the West Bank we were able to confront the soldiers and settlers and (sometimes, very rarely but sometimes) be able to appeal to the soldiers to let people go or assist in putting enough pressure on them to not destroy a village like Susya. Being back here and hearing the reports is very hard, yes I speak out and my wife who was with me this time and I will give some presentations but it's not the same. Your mind also does strange things to you after some time there. When we were there so many horrible things were happening that we had little time to really think and process it... we would run out and try to help, then spend a lot of time writing reports (and me my working on the blog which thanks be to God was I see read by quite a few people), getting not a lot of sleep in some ways was good because we were always busy. Now being back, I see kids playing from the bus and it brings back memories from the villages and Hebron and I want to start crying for no reason and feel like an idiot, or hear a loud noise and it freaks me out or see water mist (I went to the Niagara Falls to see it with my godfather) and it reminds me of teargas.
A few days ago I heard that in "revenge" for the demonstrations at Kafr Kaddum, whose road was cut off to them by the Israeli Army (it's all on the blog if you want more detail about the situation there), the soldiers drove a bulldozer into the village and destroyed their main water pipe. A week later, they invaded it in the early morning and shot at kids with rubber coated steel bullets. Then yesterday, a fellow activist was arrested on the ludicrous and trumped up charge of "throwing rocks" at the military. That is the stupidest accusation ever, our group is super strict about that kind of thing... yes, many Palestinians do it- although I don't support it, I understand why they'd throw rocks at soldiers who are enforcing the theft of their resources and unlike attacks on civilians, these are not acts of "terrorism"... but he was thrown to the ground and will possibly be deported.
Gets me so angry and sad I am not there right now. The situation is surreal to anyone who hasn't been there, even if you keep up with the events there from North America... there is no way to prepare you for what you see happening when you go there.

OK, back to the discussion (if you don't want to use the word debate lol).

Yes, I think it's called taking the most apparent meaning. But they also say, "If scientific facts certainly demonstrated, for instance, that the distance is 500 light years, this would be a justification to change the meaning of the text from what was perceivable at the time of Revelation into the current facts."

So that means there is room for interpretation but the default is to understand it by the apparent meaning.
Correct, but according to both apparent meaning or even a very scientific one, there is an error. Even if we assume that the 500 year distance is just a random space in the first heaven (although why that would be makes little sense to me) - or our cosmos- if one dropped a ball or rock from such a distance, it would not hit the earth in less than a day.

Angels are indeed made of light though we don't know the nature of it. We have angels present with us but we don't see their light. As for the jinn traveling faster than the speed of light, this is based on the verses of Sulayman (Solomon), peace be upon him, asking the assembly of jinns which of them would fetch the throne of the Queen of Sheba for him.

A powerful one from among the jinn said, "I will bring it to you before you rise from your place, and indeed, I am for this [task] strong and trustworthy." Said one who had knowledge from the Scripture, "I will bring it to you before your glance returns to you." And when [Solomon] saw it placed before him, he said, "This is from the favor of my Lord to test me whether I will be grateful or ungrateful. And whoever is grateful - his gratitude is only for [the benefit of] himself. And whoever is ungrateful - then indeed, my Lord is Free of need and Generous." (Surah an-Naml 27:39-40)

Whoever it was carried a throne across 1000+ miles in the twinkling of an eye.
Thanks for sharing that, it is interesting!

I don't know if the boundary of the lowest heaven is 500 years away or if the object was dropped from a seemingly random spot in the lowest heaven from 500 years away. Allaah knows best.
If we are going either by human or light years, it would have to be in the lowest heaven. Unless the second heaven can be seen by human beings from earth.
The distance/space/gap between each heaven and the one above it is the distance of 500 years of traveling (and again, the universe as we know it is included in the lowest heaven):

At-Tabaraani narrated in al-Mu‘jam al-Kabeer (8987) with a hasan isnaad from Ibn Mas‘ood that he said: The distance between the lowest heaven and the next one is the distance of five hundred years’ travel, and the distance between each heaven and the next is the distance of five hundred years’ travel.
Was this said by Ibn Masood or Muhammad? If not Muhammad, it's not authoritative, correct?
I don't know how to answer your question about what heavens refers to in other Islaamic literature.
Fair enough. I may try to get in touch with Islamweb again or other scholarly sources. I really appreciate the time and effort and research you put into your answers however!

1.) We don't know the speed with which the object would be traveling nor do we don't know if the 500 years are 500 of our years.
We don't, but we do know that the object is "dropped". We also know that pieces of space debris which are far larger and more heavy than a ball or rock don't fall down from such a distance within a day, it often takes years.

2.) Even if it is referring to 500 human years & speed, that doesn't really prove the hadeeth wrong. This is not directly related to what you're saying, but the same principle applies:

"As for the question as to how a royal throne was fetched over a distance of 1,500 miles in the twinkling of an eye, it can be briefly answered thus: "The concepts of time and space, and matter and movement, that we have formed on the basis of our experiments and observations, are only applicable to us. These concepts are not correct in respect to God, nor is He bound by these. Not to speak of an ordinary throne, His power can make the sun; and even much larger stars, travel millions of millions of miles in the matter of moments. The God Who by His one Command brought this huge universe into being, had the power to have moved the throne of the queen of Sheba at a speed greater than the speed of light. In this very Qur'an it has been stated that Allah, by His powers, took his servant Muhammad (may Allah's peace be upon him) from Makkah to Jerusalem and also brought him back in the same night. " (Tahfeem al Qur'aan)
Correct, but here we are talking about two extraordinary and miraculous events that God did according to Islam.

In describing the heavens, Muhammad stated how far it is from the earth and described how long it would take a small object that would have been dropped from there to reach us. It is a general and informative statement, not a description of a one time miraculous event.
Knowing everything we do about space, we can say that an object dropped from such a distance (whether we are going by human or light years) would take decades, not hours, to reach the earth.

I posted 3 more after that one. Fail.
LOL I've stopped even trying to restrain myself.
 
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TG123

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This is a total diversion from my own thread, but here is a photo I found of my comrade being arrested by the soldiers. He is bleeding from the head, I hope he is ok.

Photo taken by Haim Schwarczenberg, an Israeli activist. There are also other photos in the album of the soldiers shooting teargas at people, and kids and young men confronting them with slingshots, trying to get them out of their village.

IMG_3605


http://schwarczenberg.com/?attachment_id=5996
 
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Robban

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It's a parable, the Quran talks about rocks being the fuel for fire and talked about rocks as a parable with respect to the hearts/souls of some bani-Israel after seeing miracles, this is meaning a forty old mean who reached the bottom of the pit and stuck the lowest earth, we all being created from the highest realm only for so many of us to drop the lowest of the low. It's saying the lowest hell is for rocks hard hearts.

It's a parable that after reaching the highest stages, the over all nature of falling to many people, is forty years, in which the hardening of the heart drops and drops.

Imam Khomeini says:

According to a report once the Holy Prophet was sitting along with his companions when a loud sound of something falling was heard. The Holy Prophet's companions were startled. They enquired what had happened. According to the report the Holy Prophet said: 'A stone was rolling down in the middle of Hell. Now after 70 years it has fallen into a well located at the other end of it. This was the sound of its fall.'

This event is said to be an allegorical description of a wicked man who died at the age of 70. We are all rolling down towards the same hole. I may go there at the age of 80. You will also go to that side in a few years.

Hiya there ATF,
Talking of dropping things,

if I were to drop you a line per e-mail or sms text,
how fast would it travel?

I don,t know much about hi-tech that,s why I,m wondering.
 
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Correct, but according to both apparent meaning or even a very scientific one, there is an error. Even if we assume that the 500 year distance is just a random space in the first heaven (although why that would be makes little sense to me) - or our cosmos- if one dropped a ball or rock from such a distance, it would not hit the earth in less than a day.

Again, you don't know the speed with which it would be traveling. You also do not you know if God would make it go from that spot directly to Earth (instead of just floating around aimlessly, easily changing its "course").

If we are going either by human or light years, it would have to be in the lowest heaven. Unless the second heaven can be seen by human beings from earth.

According to the opinion that it is only the first/lowest heaven that has stars in it, everything we have observed is part of the first heaven.

Was this said by Ibn Masood or Muhammad? If not Muhammad, it's not authoritative, correct?

As for taking it as evidence, it means that we have to act according to it and consider it a source of evidence of the Islamic religion. Scholars have ten different opinions regarding that issue. The nearest of them to correctness is that if the opinion of the companion spread widely and no one went against it, then it is a source of evidence and a consensus by silence. However, if it did not spread or some other companions went against it, then it is not a source of evidence, but can be used as secondary evidence.

That is the case if reason and Ijtihaad (personal diligence) can be applied in the opinion of the companion; otherwise (i.e. if his opinion is something that has nothing to do with Ijtihaad like matters of the unseen or the stories of the previous Prophets), then it is regarded as Marfoo‘ (traceable) to the Prophet
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, unless it is known that that companion used to take his information from the books of the People of the Book.


Taking the Mawqoof Hadeeth as Evidence

So there is a difference of opinion. Regardless, the other standards of the science of hadeeth would apply to mawqoof narrations and scholars have to tell us how authentic it is (and they may have varying opinions about its authenticity) by examining the text itself and looking for hidden defects and the like.

Anyway, even with the narration about each Heaven being 500 years of travel from each other, we don't know the speed of the travel.

Fair enough. I may try to get in touch with Islamweb again or other scholarly sources. I really appreciate the time and effort and research you put into your answers however!

I can tell you that the heavens are a creation of God's, just like this Earth is.

Correct, but here we are talking about two extraordinary and miraculous events that God did according to Islam.

The point remains that Allaah can direct the object at whatever speed He wishes, regardless of a weaker gravitational force.



This is all a matter of the unseen so I can't really discuss this much (even if I had all of the knowledge humans were given about the unseen). Allaah knows best.
 
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TG123

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Salaam alaikum, LoveBeingAMuslimah.
Again, you don't know the speed with which it would be traveling. You also do not you know if God would make it go from that spot directly to Earth (instead of just floating around aimlessly, easily changing its "course").
Did Muhammad say that God would be throwing the pellet from the heavens to the earth, or merely that it would be dropped?

If the pellet would not be floating around aimlessly and easily changing its course, then it wouldn't be in the cosmos that God created. Things that are dropped in outer space do not fall down directly, but do float around.

Muhammad said clearly that if a pellet was dropped from a distance equal to 500 years travel from earth, it would land on the earth in less than a day. Based on everything we have observed, we know this is not true. Like we know it is not true that the earth is a "circle" (Isaiah 40:22).

According to the opinion that it is only the first/lowest heaven that has stars in it, everything we have observed is part of the first heaven.
If that is the case, Muhammad could not have been referring to either human travel or travel of light. Taking this into account, the rule that Muslims should take apparent meaning of his words given the context in which they were said, is inapplicable.


As for taking it as evidence, it means that we have to act according to it and consider it a source of evidence of the Islamic religion. Scholars have ten different opinions regarding that issue. The nearest of them to correctness is that if the opinion of the companion spread widely and no one went against it, then it is a source of evidence and a consensus by silence. However, if it did not spread or some other companions went against it, then it is not a source of evidence, but can be used as secondary evidence.

That is the case if reason and Ijtihaad (personal diligence) can be applied in the opinion of the companion; otherwise (i.e. if his opinion is something that has nothing to do with Ijtihaad like matters of the unseen or the stories of the previous Prophets), then it is regarded as Marfoo‘ (traceable) to the Prophet
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, unless it is known that that companion used to take his information from the books of the People of the Book.


Taking the Mawqoof Hadeeth as Evidence

So there is a difference of opinion. Regardless, the other standards of the science of hadeeth would apply to mawqoof narrations and scholars have to tell us how authentic it is (and they may have varying opinions about its authenticity) by examining the text itself and looking for hidden defects and the like.
Thank you for sharing, this is interesting.

Anyway, even with the narration about each Heaven being 500 years of travel from each other, we don't know the speed of the travel.
We know that the travel he was referring to could not then have been human travel (unless he made a mistake), so the rule for using the apparent meaning would lead someone into an error.

I can tell you that the heavens are a creation of God's, just like this Earth is.
LOL alhamdullilah! We agree on that!

The point remains that Allaah can direct the object at whatever speed He wishes, regardless of a weaker gravitational force.
Yet Muhammad nowhere mentioned God throwing down the pellet, or changing any of His natural laws to accomodate it.

This is all a matter of the unseen so I can't really discuss this much (even if I had all of the knowledge humans were given about the unseen). Allaah knows best.
I think it is also possible that Muhammad made a mistake here. He claimed there is 500 years of travel distance between earth and "the heavens", not saying anything to indicate he meant the travel of angels or jinn. If we use the rule of taking a teaching at its apparent meaning unless it has been indicated otherwise in his time, he said 500 human years.
However, whether we are looking at 500 human years or 500 light years or even a faster travel time, it remains so that an object dropped from such a distance would take a lot more than 24 hours to hit the earth. Muhammad did not indicate that God would be throwing the pellet down from the heavens, or changing His natural laws.
 
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