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Analogy
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Ana the Ist
Aggressively serene!
Lol In what way? The butterfly flapping its wings doesn't have infinite consequences....it has one.
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Ana the Ist
Aggressively serene!
In the domino effect, each domino hits exactly one other domino....a measurable and finite consequence.
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DogmaHunter
Code Monkey
In such an idea, EVERYTHING has infinite effect, including breathing. To then single something out is stating-the-obvious.
For all practical intents and purposes though, that is not what people mean when they speak of consequences of actions.
Also, every "new" effect is a new consequence.
Not a single one of those consequences is inifinite.
The difference is that I didn't call YOU ridiculous. I called what you SAID ridiculous.
So thanks for the insult.
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DogmaHunter
Code Monkey
Nope. Only dictatorships.
My democratic government does not run a gigantic racket.
It doesn't demand me to bow down to it by threat of physical harm.
That sound more like what goes on in North Korea and Taliban ruled afghanistan.
Every. Single. One.
Acceptance that the dude is the boss and act accordingly is exactly what mafia bosses expect you to do - or else.
Arbitrarily defining your god that way, does not make it so.
No.
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TheoNewstoss
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I've already answered this question. My answer isn't going to change just because you've slightly changed the wording of your question.
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/analogy.7904225/page-4#post-68516065
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TheoNewstoss
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No, and that's the problem. It changes the system forever. Because that tornado spawning over Texas that otherwise wouldn't have spawned now also changes the system forever. And so, and so forth.
Imagine a row of dominos. You come along and flick the first one causing this cascade effect. Essentially what you're arguing is that you're only responsible for knocking down the first domino, not any of the others. Frankly, that's absurd. And what's more, I think you know it's absurd.
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TheoNewstoss
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No, that's the whole point. I'm applying the butterfly effect to the nature of sin in order to demonstrate that no sin is finite. Every action, including sin, has an infinite effect and consequences that we can't even fathom long into the future. Apologists have also done the same thing when talking about the problem of evil in the world. The concept applies to every action, no one is disputing that except Ana.
I disagree.
Uhm, yeah. We're using those words interchangeably here. An effect is a consequence. And every new consequence can be directly tied into initial conditions within a system.
Not of itself, no, but indirectly, yes.
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Ana the Ist
Aggressively serene!
No, that's the whole point. I'm applying the butterfly effect to the nature of sin in order to demonstrate that no sin is finite. Every action, including sin, has an infinite effect and consequences that we can't even fathom long into the future. Apologists have also done the same thing when talking about the problem of evil in the world. The concept applies to every action, no one is disputing that except Ana.
I disagree.
Uhm, yeah. We're using those words interchangeably here. An effect is a consequence. And every new consequence can be directly tied into initial conditions within a system.
Not of itself, no, but indirectly, yes.
"Indirectly"? Seriously? Then if you believe god started all this, how is he not indirectly responsible for all sin?
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Tina W
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That's not a good analogy of Christianity because God is not equal to us, but 2 children are equal. A better analogy would be something like someone's child who is dirt poor having to pay a dollar as punishment for something he did wrong and if he doesn't pay, him and his family will be jailed for life or killed. And a dollar is something they are too poor to afford. Would you let your child who gets something like a $20 allowance a week to spend on candy take that child's punishment and pay the dollar and save that boy and his family? That's a better analogy. 
The price that needed to be paid, we humans could never pay on our own only the blood of Jesus could pay that price.
The price that needed to be paid, we humans could never pay on our own only the blood of Jesus could pay that price.
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Tina W
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The point most people are missing is that they are comparing two children who are the same and having one take punishment for the other. But there has to be something in the analogy that makes one child bigger than the other in some way and the bigger child takes the smaller child's punishment because we are not equal with God. We can't save ourself only God can. Our blood can't save us, only Jesus' blood can save us. It has to be a stronger child who can bear the punishment that would utterly destroy another child. Like a kid with broken bone syndrome having to get a spanking as a punishment verses a normal healthy child taking his spanking for him. Yes it would hurt the normal child but he can bear it and live but the sick child it would destroy him.
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Lol, if Sally gets smacked every time Johnny is bad, Johnny is gonna be a little stinker. That's just one problem with the penal substitute false doctrine. Another is that it is the exact opposite of justice and violates every known law and principle in jurisprudence.
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Chriliman
Everything I need to be joyful is right here
No, that's the whole point. I'm applying the butterfly effect to the nature of sin in order to demonstrate that no sin is finite. Every action, including sin, has an infinite effect and consequences that we can't even fathom long into the future. Apologists have also done the same thing when talking about the problem of evil in the world. The concept applies to every action, no one is disputing that except Ana.
I disagree.
Uhm, yeah. We're using those words interchangeably here. An effect is a consequence. And every new consequence can be directly tied into initial conditions within a system.
Not of itself, no, but indirectly, yes.
I'd disagree that sin is not finite. I think sin is finite in that it has a beginning and potentially no end for those who don't admit their sins, but for those who do admit there sins to the right being, will be forgiven, meaning their sins will come to an end.
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TheoNewstoss
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God is responsible for the fact of freedom. People are responsible for their acts of freedom. I suppose you could argue that if God had not given you the power of choice, then you would not have been in a position to exercise your freedom and make bad choices and that God is somehow responsible in that sense.
I don't think that flies though. It's analogous to God setting up the dominos a certain way and saying, "Hey, don't kick these dominos. Doing so will have dire consequences." And then you come along in your great wisdom and kick the dominos, then go, "God made me do it."
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Ana the Ist
Aggressively serene!
Don't contradict yourself now...you can't have it both ways.
You can argue, as you've been, that every action has infinite consequences which we are responsible for...but in that case it all starts with god creating man and he's responsible for all the infinite consequences of that action. God becomes responsible for all sin.
Or you can argue, as I have, that you're only responsible for the direct consequences of your actions. In that case, I'm responsible for the five dollars stolen in the scenario I described and not your inability to pay your rent.
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TheoNewstoss
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I'm not. You're committing a category error.
You haven't even begun to try to understand the nature of sin in those statements. It's just one category error after another. At this point, you're not even trying to address my point, you're just pointing to potential consequences of what I'm saying and going, "See, if that's true, you won't like it." Well, I don't consider my own happiness or ease of accepting an idea something worth considering when trying to ascertain the truth of an issue. Why? Because I actually care about what the truth is.
Your position has no merit as I've demonstrated. We can use a real-world example to further drive the point home. Do you remember the BP oil spill that occurred in 2010? If we apply your line of reasoning, BP was only responsible for damaging the eco-system and not the fact that thousands and thousands of people lost their jobs and were unable to support their families. Those people who lost their jobs were responsible because they chose to work in a region where an oil spill was possible. Is that what you would maintain?
If we were to apply your line of reasoning in our justice system, no one could ever be held liable for damages if they were only responsible for their immediate act.
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Ana the Ist
Aggressively serene!
People losing their jobs was a direct consequence of the oil spill. If however, someone lost their job and fell ill, is their inability to pay for their doctor bill also BP's fault?
It's not a category error, it's all rather simple. Your problem is that you want to justify eternal punishment...and you're failing quite spectacularly.
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TheoNewstoss
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No, the problem is your laughable inability to coherently connect ideas. It's why I can't wait to see your first post in our upcoming debate. I expect nothing more than one non sequitur after another, in essence, the same thing you're doing here.
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Ana the Ist
Aggressively serene!
I take it you're done here and can't manage to find any fault in my logic and you're just posting ad hominems at this point?
Whether you want to say that BP spilled oil, poisoned the water, or destroyed the environment...it's all the same action. One of the direct consequences of that action was that fishermen lost their jobs.
It's not as if you have to admit that I'm right...anyone following our conversation can see that much.
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