[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] Evidence of the Holy Spirit

ToBeLoved · Aug 1, 2015

Biblicist2 said:
Even though it can certainly happen way after our initial conversion, as it did with me and many others as well, ideally it should occur at the moment of our conversion/initiation. If the intending initiate is properly taught, where he/she is aware that they can pray in the Spirit (tongues) and ideally even prophesy, then there is no reason that this should not happen immediately.

So, it is your belief that all who receive the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit, receive that gift at the time of their Salvation and that the person has the gift and could use it from the moment of Salvation, but does not because they do not know how to use it at that time?

If (and you need to confirm your belief of this if I understood you right) that is interesting to me, because I've always felt/understood it as an empowerment for ministry (being whatever God has in store for each person) that is only given to those who would need that (given to each person according to what is GOd's will personally for their lives and what He wants them to accomplish for Him). That is what I currently believe and I don't necessarily think that each person at conversion would be in need of that gift immediately or have the maturity (that they are at that place in their sanctification, led by the Holy Spirit) to use that gift or understand that gift in some cases at the time of conversion. My understanding of the Holy Spirit is that He empowers us in love, meaning that He (HS) knows where we are (personally, each one of us) and that gifts are not necessarily bestowed at the time of conversion (Salvation) more because the new believer may not know how to lovingly and with understanding deal with the fact that they have this gift in the first place.

For example (hypothetical) is Sue becomes saved by a friend, but does not immediately begin attending church or getting an understanding of God through good teaching, but is working through her life with the help of the friend that saved her. The Holy Spirit is trying to show her (though love again) that she is in need of spiritual nourishment through a church, but Sue is just not there yet. The Holy Spirit needs to spend more time with Sue to bring her to that revelaition that that is the path that God wants her, a new creation to take. In such a case, I can see in 5 years when her circumstances and knowledge of Christ and what direction He has intended for her life to go, that in 5 years (because she is now ready for the gift of tongues) the Holy Spirit (who I believe teaches mostly in love and reverance for the individual if possible) that the Holy Spirit would wait.

That is not your position? Your posiiton is that if the gift was given it would be done at the time of conversion?

My belief is more that the Holy Spirit gives as is appropriate because of what God has intended for each person. My belief is I guess very individualized when it comes to the Holy Spirit. God (HS) does empower before ministry, but that IMHO, is to get one where He desires for that person to be (for example, one could become a missionary to foregin countries, one could become a wife and mother and that person's major minsitry is in the home and at their work place, another could be called to church leadership, ect). I think that God plans for each of us is very different and we are lead by the Holy Spiirit (if we listen and are open to being led into what God truely intended).

As you have probably read in other posts that I've written, I use the phrase ''walk with God" often, because I see it as a walk, day by day that we walk with God and are given what we need at the point in time what we need to lead us in the path for God's will to be done in each of our lives, which is obviously different as we are not all hands and not all feet, but are different components that overall serve God's will for the furthering of God's will on earth.

razzelflabben · Aug 1, 2015

Biblicist2 said:
I realised what you were after but as your background is cessationist where you are being compelled to look at aspects of the Christian walk from the outside, where we (or many of us) have been able to frequently experience these things then I decided to cover a few bases first.

whaaaat? When did my back ground become cessationist? I never new that, in fact, as far back as I can remember, I have never once believed in the cessationist mindset....so when did this happen? I came to Christ at 6, never looked back and have believed in the gifts from the moment I first heard about them to the present, so are you talking about some past that I don't even recall? Like the first 5 years of my life? How would you know about that period of my life, when I don't even recall being in a C and E family, much less any belief about the gifts? Man...geesh...what the heck gives you the right to accuse me of this kind of non sense? when do we accept what people say is true for them instead of....oh never mind with this kind of judgment and false accusation against my character and beliefs, I would be better off just ignoring the rest of what you say. Seriously, how many people are going to read this and now think I come from an cessationist background because you bear false witness against me? and what recourse do I have but to correct anyone brave enough to question your accusations by asking me directly...sinful....just sinful...moving on

I would have hoped that from my reply you would have realised that there is no “primary evidence of an evil spirit” where we can move from the more apparent level of the demonic where someone can quickly go into a manic state to those who are being oppressed (not possessed) by demonic influences. I had hoped that my previous reply would have demonstrated that “logic and Biblical application” along with the application of the Holy Spirit that these things would be clear. So there is no value with connecting the normative Biblical pattern where the reception of the Holy Spirit is accompanied by the initiate speaking in tongues with the various levels of demonic possession and oppression.

if you want to talk about demons, we can talk about the nightly demonic visitations I had when I first came to Christ at 6 years old which broke a stronghold in my family, or we can talk about the demon possessed people I have been a part of their delivery, or the number of people who ask me to test the spirits because I know full well what demonic activity is, etc. etc. etc. but since none of that is the point and it is all off topic and since it removes the point that you feel justified to slander me because of, I think we best leave it all where it is, don't you.

To summarise, as I explained in my previous post, Luke (Acts) made no effort to connect the reception of the Holy Spirit with any discernible fruit of the Spirit, which as I explained before, can be almost impossible to discern within most people at least within their first few days or weeks. As Luke only connects the reception of the Holy Spirit with the ability of the initiate demonstrating that they can speak in tongues and that this was the ONLY deciding factor which allowed the Jerusalem Council to acknowledge that the Holy Spirit had fallen upon the Gentiles, then why should we argue with Lukes testimony?

as I pointed out in this thread, I disagree and have seen many new believers demonstrate the fruit of the spirit from the moment of belief to the present. So I guess, the real question is why I would even consider your words at this point given that you have already falsely attacked my character and ideas. IOW's given your behavior and false accusations, why would I even consider anything you had to say as relevant? Oh, maybe when I give my anger to God, He will demonstrate His power in me to Love you no matter how disrespectful and rude you have been...I guess I should take a moment to do that before finishing this post.

Remember, the Pentecostal denominations (along with the charismatics) in areas such as South America, Africa and Asia have made massive inroads into these areas since the 70’s where the more traditional denominations have essentially failed to make any discernible inroads. Where the traditionalists seem to have set their benchmark low when it comes to conversion, regeneration and spiritual growth, this has allowed the Pentecostal missionaries to recognise that the traditionalist benchmark has often been little more than obedience to their way of doing things. The Pentecostal denominations have been able to move into these same cultures that are intensely demonic where the Power of the Holy Spirit has been able to break down these strongholds. Since the 70’s we have seen countless thousands released from demonic possession which has worried the more traditionalist denominations particularly with the Roman Catholics, Lutherans and Reformed as they simply cannot do the same.

We cannot compare the Power of the Spirit with the fruit of the Spirit

It should be pointed out, that whenever the Holy Spirit has allowed a new initiate to break free from from even extreme levels of manic demonic possession, or even drug addiction within moments of their reception of the Holy Spirit; that these things are not a result of the fruit of the Spirit but with the Power of the Holy Spirit - the two are not one and the same.

so...responding in the HS power within....I have already explained why I think it is wrong to try to inflate what Luke said to some understanding of the primary evidence of the HS being tongues. You can reread it if you want and respond to the problems I have offered if you want, but I will not allow you to continue to sin against me, I will either ignore your sin, or leave the thread, either way, because to Love you, I cannot give you an excuse to continue to live in your sin. But, you see, that is the point, if the fruit of the Spirit is the primary evidence, then people want to hear what you have to say because things like the false assumptions above, don't cloud truths that need to be heard. Look at I Cor. 13...I can have all knowledge, etc. but if I don't have Love, I'm all noise. This post shows exactly that truth and exactly why the fruit which as previously pointed out begins with Love, is the primary evidence of the HS, because without that evidence, your just noise...(your there meaning general population)

ToBeLoved · Aug 1, 2015

The Holy Spirit is such an interesting topic because He is the one who guides each of us. So much of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. So much is made known to us in the Word, but so much is relative to each of our Christian lives individually. Fascinating really.

Alithis · Aug 3, 2015

razzelflabben said:
This is an interesting way of looking at the question....so what would be the primary evidence of an evil spirit if we were to apply the same logic to that that we do to the HS? Would it be super human power like the man in the tombs, or throwing ones self in the fire like the child who was demon possessed. NOt talking here about evidence like you list above, but taking the concept one step further. If we look at both sides the same way, so as to say that the primary evidence of the HS is tongues, then wouldn't we also have to say that the primary evidence of demonic possession is either super strength or throwing ones self to the ground? Yet I have known people possessed that did neither. Hum...something to think about today, thanks.

Whats interesting here is the leap to the term evidence of ....dot dot dot.. As an ongoing evidence.
Where im refering to a knowable tangable evidence as a sign unto others of a specific event occuring .

razzelflabben · Aug 3, 2015

Alithis said:
Whats interesting here is the leap to the term evidence of ....dot dot dot.. As an ongoing evidence.
Where im refering to a knowable tangable evidence as a sign unto others of a specific event occuring .

? So you do not think that it is a knowable, tangible sign to have "Love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness and self-control." ? Not to mention obedience. How, please, are these things NOT tangible? How are they not knowable? You really don't think that we can tell if someone really has a Joy that the world cannot understand? Or a Love that transforms lives around them? You really don't think that in the midst of the most horrible of circumstances someone having Peace, real peace wouldn't be observable? To see a useful kindness in action is not knowable how exactly? or self control that leads to sinlessness....in fact, scripture tells us to lives such good lives that the heathens would see our lives and praise God....sounds to me like that is very much knowable and tangible, you are going to have to prove to me otherwise when scripture disagrees with you as does my experiences. In fact, I know from experience that spiritual gifts is not only different from talent but recognizable even by the world. So have fun proving your case to me.

ToBeLoved · Aug 3, 2015

Let's all admit that with the Holy Spirit 'tangible' is indeed subjective to each believer in this day and age. Depending on whom is speaking, the Holy Spirit to them may have 'tanglible' qualities and to others they may not see this as 'tangible' or proveable.

The gift of tongues is seen by some as being 'tangible' evidence, but that is even subjective to the individual. Most people that believe in their gift, if they have tongues, is because they have that gift themselves and experience the 'tangible' results of having that gift.

Biblicist · Aug 4, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
So, it is your belief that all who receive the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit, receive that gift at the time of their Salvation and that the person has the gift and could use it from the moment of Salvation, but does not because they do not know how to use it at that time?

I'm sorry for my delay with replying but the last few days have been fairly hectic at work.

Before I go to the core of your question, you may recall how I frequently point out that Paul does not use our English term “spiritual gift”; but where he speaks of our ability to pray in the Spirit (tongues) as being an operation or manifestation of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:7) which is a literal translation of the Greek ἡ φανέρωσις τοῦ πνεύματος.

With the more common use of ‘spiritual gift/s” this inadvertently gives the impression that the Holy Spirit is sort of standing outside of the community of Believers where he in some way arbitrarily and impersonally hands out certain ‘gifts’ to Believers. When we use either manifestations or operations to refer to the 9 Operations of the Spirit in 1 Cor 12:7-11, this helps us to remember that they are not something that he ‘gives to us’ but where they are outworkings of the Spirit through the individual Believer to the community of the Saints. Even though I long to see the day where the Full Gospel churches stop using the term ‘spiritual gift’, as it has been so ingrained into our very being for decades then I suspect that it will remain with us up until the Lord returns.

So when someone receives the Holy Spirit at the point of their conversion/initiation, this means that we each have the potential where the Holy Spirit may choose to outwork through us within one or more of those 9 Operations mentioned in 12:7-11.

When it comes to our ability to pray in the Spirit (tongues), this along with prophecy are the two Operations of the Spirit that all Believers can undertake. This does not necessarily mean that even if everyone prayed in the Spirit during times of personal devotion and where we each infrequently provide a prayer to the Father in tongues, or that we all on the odd occasion provided a prophecy within our congregational meetings that we would necessarily hold the Office/function of tongues or prophecy as per 1Cor 12:28. If you want, we can go into more detail in another post.

If (and you need to confirm your belief of this if I understood you right) that is interesting to me, because I've always felt/understood it as an empowerment for ministry (being whatever God has in store for each person) that is only given to those who would need that (given to each person according to what is GOd's will personally for their lives and what He wants them to accomplish for Him).

What you have presented reflects the classic-Pentecostal (i.e., AoG) position regarding the reception of the Holy Spirit, where in their view the Holy Spirit first sanctifies and regenerates by Baptising the new initiate into Christ but where Christ subsequently Baptises the individual into the Holy Spirit for empowerment and mission; which is to be evidenced by the individual speaking in tongues.

This was the view that I once held to up until only a few years back. Once I started to delve into the Scriptures on this issue I realised that it could not be supported. When we look at Luke’s material (Acts), with his historical record, for those of us who maybe only began to understand about the things of the Spirit, including how we can pray in the Spirit (tongues) months or years after we were first Born Again, it can be very easy to filter Luke’s record through this lense; but this is merely an accident of history where all we had done was to do what we could have done the moment that we were first Saved but could not do so due to a lack of proper teaching.

That is what I currently believe and I don't necessarily think that each person at conversion would be in need of that gift immediately or have the maturity (that they are at that place in their sanctification, led by the Holy Spirit) to use that gift or understand that gift in some cases at the time of conversion. My understanding of the Holy Spirit is that He empowers us in love, meaning that He (HS) knows where we are (personally, each one of us) and that gifts are not necessarily bestowed at the time of conversion (Salvation) more because the new believer may not know how to lovingly and with understanding deal with the fact that they have this gift in the first place.

When I was invited to church by a friend and his family as a 16 year old, I initially mistook the local AoG church for the one that I was supposed to go to, which happened to be a cessationist church. Once I realised my mistake I went and found the one that I was supposed to go to, but many years later, I often wondered how my early Christian walk could have been dramatically changed for the better if I had encountered the Lord through the shock-assault of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and maybe with even prophecy. Instead, for maybe the next 18 months, my primary question that I would direct to my peers and church leadership was, how do I know that I have the Holy Spirit within me, where the standard reply was “because the Bible tells us so”. As this sort of sounded half reasonable I figured that it was a question best left alone for the time being.

For example (hypothetical) is Sue becomes saved by a friend, but does not immediately begin attending church or getting an understanding of God through good teaching, but is working through her life with the help of the friend that saved her. The Holy Spirit is trying to show her (though love again) that she is in need of spiritual nourishment through a church, but Sue is just not there yet. The Holy Spirit needs to spend more time with Sue to bring her to that revelaition that that is the path that God wants her, a new creation to take. In such a case, I can see in 5 years when her circumstances and knowledge of Christ and what direction He has intended for her life to go, that in 5 years (because she is now ready for the gift of tongues) the Holy Spirit (who I believe teaches mostly in love and reverance for the individual if possible) that the Holy Spirit would wait.

That is not your position? Your posiiton is that if the gift was given it would be done at the time of conversion?

Okay…hypotheticals can definitely be a bit problematic to work with; I would say that if there was a five year timespan between someone’s Salvation and where they were apparently only ready to pray in the Spirit (tongues), then in all probability there would be a few negative factors in play. I can certainly appreciate that we are complex creatures but as millions have been filled with the Spirit and spoken in tongues on the first day of their new life in the Spirit, then why should we deem Sue’s decision or with those others who are in her shoes to be a normative experience? As we are told to always pray in the Spirit, why would the Spirit of God feel that Sue (and others) should have to wait?

My belief is more that the Holy Spirit gives as is appropriate because of what God has intended for each person. My belief is I guess very individualized when it comes to the Holy Spirit. God (HS) does empower before ministry, but that IMHO, is to get one where He desires for that person to be (for example, one could become a missionary to foregin countries, one could become a wife and mother and that person's major minsitry is in the home and at their work place, another could be called to church leadership, ect). I think that God plans for each of us is very different and we are lead by the Holy Spiirit (if we listen and are open to being led into what God truely intended).

If I can apply a gloss to your paragraph, I would say that your comments might better reflect how the Holy Spirit will allow us time to mature in the Lord. When it comes to praying in the Spirit, interpretation and prophecy, these things are fairly simple where they can be operated within on day 1 of the Christian walk. When it comes to overseas missionary service this might require a few years of discipleship before this could be undertaken.

With your reference to the "Holy Spirit empowering" the individual, this is more of a classic-Pentecostal (AoG) viewpoint, where I would say that at the moment of our conversion-initiation that we are both sanctified and empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Biblicist · Aug 4, 2015

razzelflabben said:
whaaaat? When did my back ground become cessationist? I never new that, in fact, as far back as I can remember, I have never once believed in the cessationist mindset....so when did this happen? I came to Christ at 6, never looked back and have believed in the gifts from the moment I first heard about them to the present, so are you talking about some past that I don't even recall? Like the first 5 years of my life? How would you know about that period of my life, when I don't even recall being in a C and E family, much less any belief about the gifts? Man...geesh...what the heck gives you the right to accuse me of this kind of non sense? when do we accept what people say is true for them instead of....oh never mind with this kind of judgment and false accusation against my character and beliefs, I would be better off just ignoring the rest of what you say. Seriously, how many people are going to read this and now think I come from an cessationist background because you bear false witness against me? and what recourse do I have but to correct anyone brave enough to question your accusations by asking me directly...sinful....just sinful...moving on if you want to talk about demons, we can talk about the nightly demonic visitations I had when I first came to Christ at 6 years old which broke a stronghold in my family, or we can talk about the demon possessed people I have been a part of their delivery, or the number of people who ask me to test the spirits because I know full well what demonic activity is, etc. etc. etc. but since none of that is the point and it is all off topic and since it removes the point that you feel justified to slander me because of, I think we best leave it all where it is, don't you. as I pointed out in this thread, I disagree and have seen many new believers demonstrate the fruit of the spirit from the moment of belief to the present. So I guess, the real question is why I would even consider your words at this point given that you have already falsely attacked my character and ideas. IOW's given your behavior and false accusations, why would I even consider anything you had to say as relevant? Oh, maybe when I give my anger to God, He will demonstrate His power in me to Love you no matter how disrespectful and rude you have been...I guess I should take a moment to do that before finishing this post. so...responding in the HS power within....I have already explained why I think it is wrong to try to inflate what Luke said to some understanding of the primary evidence of the HS being tongues. You can reread it if you want and respond to the problems I have offered if you want, but I will not allow you to continue to sin against me, I will either ignore your sin, or leave the thread, either way, because to Love you, I cannot give you an excuse to continue to live in your sin. But, you see, that is the point, if the fruit of the Spirit is the primary evidence, then people want to hear what you have to say because things like the false assumptions above, don't cloud truths that need to be heard. Look at I Cor. 13...I can have all knowledge, etc. but if I don't have Love, I'm all noise. This post shows exactly that truth and exactly why the fruit which as previously pointed out begins with Love, is the primary evidence of the HS, because without that evidence, your just noise...(your there meaning general population)

It seems that having had to apologise once this week that maybe I need to do it a second time!

You have my apologies as I simply presumed by your approach on this particular thread that you were coming from a cessationist background. I started to do a check before I compiled my reply with some of your other threads but this does not seem to be as easy as it was under the old one - maybe its been a long week for me.

So if I can ask (where hopefully my question won't add fuel to the flames), I gather that you are quite content to see Christians praying in the Spirit (tongues)?

ToBeLoved · Aug 4, 2015

Biblicist2 said:
I'm sorry for my delay with replying but the last few days have been fairly hectic at work.

Before I go to the core of your question, you may recall how I frequently point out that Paul does not use our English term “spiritual gift”; but where he speaks of our ability to pray in the Spirit (tongues) as being an operation or manifestation of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:7) which is a literal translation of the Greek ἡ φανέρωσις τοῦ πνεύματος.

With the more common use of ‘spiritual gift/s” this inadvertently gives the impression that the Holy Spirit is sort of standing outside of the community of Believers where he in some way arbitrarily and impersonally hands out certain ‘gifts’ to Believers. When we use either manifestations or operations to refer to the 9 Operations of the Spirit in 1 Cor 12:7-11, this helps us to remember that they are not something that he ‘gives to us’ but where they are outworkings of the Spirit through the individual Believer to the community of the Saints. Even though I long to see the day where the Full Gospel churches stop using the term ‘spiritual gift’, as it has been so ingrained into our very being for decades then I suspect that it will remain with us up until the Lord returns.

So when someone receives the Holy Spirit at the point of their conversion/initiation, this means that we each have the potential where the Holy Spirit may choose to outwork through us within one or more of those 9 Operations mentioned in 12:7-11.

When it comes to our ability to pray in the Spirit (tongues), this along with prophecy are the two Operations of the Spirit that all Believers can undertake. This does not necessarily mean that even if everyone prayed in the Spirit during times of personal devotion and where we each infrequently provide a prayer to the Father in tongues, or that we all on the odd occasion provided a prophecy within our congregational meetings that we would necessarily hold the Office/function of tongues or prophecy as per 1Cor 12:28. If you want, we can go into more detail in another post.

What you have presented reflects the classic-Pentecostal (i.e., AoG) position regarding the reception of the Holy Spirit, where in their view the Holy Spirit first sanctifies and regenerates by Baptising the new initiate into Christ but where Christ subsequently Baptises the individual into the Holy Spirit for empowerment and mission; which is to be evidenced by the individual speaking in tongues.

This was the view that I once held to up until only a few years back. Once I started to delve into the Scriptures on this issue I realised that it could not be supported. When we look at Luke’s material (Acts), with his historical record, for those of us who maybe only began to understand about the things of the Spirit, including how we can pray in the Spirit (tongues) months or years after we were first Born Again, it can be very easy to filter Luke’s record through this lense; but this is merely an accident of history where all we had done was to do what we could have done the moment that we were first Saved but could not do so due to a lack of proper teaching.

When I was invited to church by a friend and his family as a 16 year old, I initially mistook the local AoG church for the one that I was supposed to go to, which happened to be a cessationist church. Once I realised my mistake I went and found the one that I was supposed to go to, but many years later, I often wondered how my early Christian walk could have been dramatically changed for the better if I had encountered the Lord through the shock-assault of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and maybe with even prophecy. Instead, for maybe the next 18 months, my primary question that I would direct to my peers and church leadership was, how do I know that I have the Holy Spirit within me, where the standard reply was “because the Bible tells us so”. As this sort of sounded half reasonable I figured that it was a question best left alone for the time being.

Okay…hypotheticals can definitely be a bit problematic to work with; I would say that if there was a five year timespan between someone’s Salvation and where they were apparently only ready to pray in the Spirit (tongues), then in all probability there would be a few negative factors in play. I can certainly appreciate that we are complex creatures but as millions have been filled with the Spirit and spoken in tongues on the first day of their new life in the Spirit, then why should we deem Sue’s decision or with those others who are in her shoes to be a normative experience? As we are told to always pray in the Spirit, why would the Spirit of God feel that Sue (and others) should have to wait?

If I can apply a gloss to your paragraph, I would say that your comments might better reflect how the Holy Spirit will allow us time to mature in the Lord. When it comes to praying in the Spirit, interpretation and prophecy, these things are fairly simple where they can be operated within on day 1 of the Christian walk. When it comes to overseas missionary service this might require a few years of discipleship before this could be undertaken.

With your reference to the "Holy Spirit empowering" the individual, this is more of a classic-Pentecostal (AoG) viewpoint, where I would say that at the moment of our conversion-initiation that we are both sanctified and empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Well, thank you, very thorough.

We disagree about all having the gifts of tongues, but you explained it very well.

Alithis · Aug 4, 2015

I have no case to prove.again you have leapt to the topic of ongoing every day life. Not the evidence of the initial occurance of the baptism .
At the moment of this occuring in a persons life the Spirit enters the body, annoints ,fills ,inhabits .He begins a transforming work which brings about his fruits from within us ,in season.
But at the moment of the baptism which is a moment of rebirth ,of being born again of the spirit rather then only of water ,there transpires an acknowledgement from the father that he has recieved you as a son.
The temple has been cleansed and consecrated by the blood and then... The glory fills the temple.
There is a distinct manifestation which is tangibly experienced when this happens. It is a momentus occasion in any believers life and they can all testify of it. Those who cannot ,simply MAY have not yet had it occur.

Biblicist · Aug 5, 2015

Alithis said:
I have no case to prove.again you have leapt to the topic of ongoing every day life. Not the evidence of the initial occurance of the baptism .

As the only observable immediate evidence that someone has received the Holy Spirit is with their ability to pray in the Spirit (tongues), then there is obviously little to prove. We of course base this on;

Acts 2 where the 120 first received the Holy Spirit (we don’t know what happened to the 3000 new converts on that day if any spoke in tongues or not).

Acts 8 does not provide does not specifically mention tongues but it is generally presumed that when Simon “… saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles hands…” that he most likely observed the new initiates speaking in tongues.

In Acts 10 we have Cornelius, his family and friends where even Peter was able to use their speaking in tongues as an observable and unassailable evidence that the Holy Spirit had been given to the Gentiles.

With Acts 19 we find the 12 Ephesians receiving the Holy Spirit for the first time which not only satisfied Paul regarding their conversion-initiation but where Luke saw fit to record this event in Acts.

Nothing is mentioned regarding Lydia’s conversion (Acts 16:14).

With Paul’s three day conversion experience (Acts 9), the culmination of his conversion-initiation is with Acts 9:17 where he was filled with the Holy Spirit. There is no record that he spoke in tongues at this point but as his conversion was certainly out of the ordinary, once he had received revelation from the Lord regarding how he could pray in the Spirit, then this could have happened days, weeks or maybe months later which is how it occurred for me along with millions of others.

At the moment of this occuring in a persons life the Spirit enters the body, annoints ,fills ,inhabits .He begins a transforming work which brings about his fruits from within us ,in season.
But at the moment of the baptism which is a moment of rebirth ,of being born again of the spirit rather then only of water ,there transpires an acknowledgement from the father that he has recieved you as a son.
The temple has been cleansed and consecrated by the blood and then... The glory fills the temple.
There is a distinct manifestation which is tangibly experienced when this happens. It is a momentus occasion in any believers life and they can all testify of it. Those who cannot ,simply MAY have not yet had it occur.

Are you maybe referring to the class-Pentecostal position of subsequence where the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is supposed to follow after our first being 'sealed' in the Spirit at Salvation?

Johnlove1 · Aug 6, 2015

Besides the magnifications of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, it is the good fruit that comes from being led by the Holy Spirit, which gives the true evidence of one receiving the Holy Spirit.

(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

One who has the Holy Spirit will began to walk as Jesus walked.

(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

Alithis · Aug 6, 2015

Johnlove1 said:
Besides the magnifications of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, it is the good fruit that comes from being led by the Holy Spirit, which gives the true evidence of one receiving the Holy Spirit.

(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

One who has the Holy Spirit will began to walk as Jesus walked.

(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

i find it interesting that there are folks who have fellow shipped in churches for 40 or 50 years .. displaying on the outside an appearance of good fruits in the vein of being "generally very nice kind folks" (yet while having this appearance of godliness display none of the power thereof) and are not, in truth, "born again of the Spirit" (but perhaps only of the intellect ) we must then be wary of using terms ike "fruit " as evidence that one is baptized in the spirit . and terms like" walking as Jesus did " even more so .. for in all the nice outer appearance of fruit . the lord JESUS walked in absolute faith .. raised the dead opened the eyes of the blind etc .. you see the fruit of the Spirit is the manifestation of the power of the Spirit for where there is not power of the spirit there is no fruit of the spirit because he is the Holy Spirit of the all powerful most High God and he is love . thus love is not love except it is made manifest .
so one can appear nice and kind and patient and loving in the measure of the worlds concept .. but if it does not culminate in the manifest power evidenced by the healing of lives and bodies and the salvation of souls .. what good is it ? it is empty the clanging of rubbish tin lids making much empty noise and saying look at how fruitful we are not .. the very declaration of boasting in the fruits as evidence of being baptized in the holy Spirit becomes nothing more then a testimony against ourselves if the true fruit of the spirit made manifest by the evident POWER of god to heal save and deliver is not present .

Johnlove1 · Aug 6, 2015

Alithis said:
i find it interesting that there are folks who have fellow shipped in churches for 40 or 50 years .. displaying on the outside an appearance of good fruits in the vein of being "generally very nice kind folks" (yet while having this appearance of godliness display none of the power thereof) and are not, in truth, "born again of the Spirit" (but perhaps only of the intellect ) we must then be wary of using terms ike "fruit " as evidence that one is baptized in the spirit . and terms like" walking as Jesus did " even more so .. for in all the nice outer appearance of fruit . the lord JESUS walked in absolute faith .. raised the dead opened the eyes of the blind etc .. you see the fruit of the Spirit is the manifestation of the power of the Spirit for where there is not power of the spirit there is no fruit of the spirit because he is the Holy Spirit of the all powerful most High God and he is love . thus love is not love except it is made manifest .
so one can appear nice and kind and patient and loving in the measure of the worlds concept .. but if it does not culminate in the manifest power evidenced by the healing of lives and bodies and the salvation of souls .. what good is it ? it is empty the clanging of rubbish tin lids making much empty noise and saying look at how fruitful we are not .. the very declaration of boasting in the fruits as evidence of being baptized in the holy Spirit becomes nothing more then a testimony against ourselves if the true fruit of the spirit made manifest by the evident POWER of god to heal save and deliver is not present .

Proving one’s self to others is not important. How one looks to people does not matter.

It is how one looks to one’s self that matters. One knows if it is God teaching him or her by the fruit produced.

If one sins then that is rotten fruit, and it is a rotten tree that is producing that fruit.

(1 John 3:8) “Whoever lives sinfully belongs to the devil, since thedevilhas been a sinner from the beginning. This was the purpose of the appearing of the Son of God, to undo the work of the devil.

The Holy Spirit lets one know if he or she is living God’s Word, and one does not need to prove that to people.

Alithis · Aug 6, 2015

Biblicist2 said:
As the only observable immediate evidence that someone has received the Holy Spirit is with their ability to pray in the Spirit (tongues), then there is obviously little to prove. We of course base this on;

Acts 2 where the 120 first received the Holy Spirit (we don’t know what happened to the 3000 new converts on that day if any spoke in tongues or not).

Acts 8 does not provide does not specifically mention tongues but it is generally presumed that when Simon “… saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles hands…” that he most likely observed the new initiates speaking in tongues.

In Acts 10 we have Cornelius, his family and friends where even Peter was able to use their speaking in tongues as an observable and unassailable evidence that the Holy Spirit had been given to the Gentiles.

With Acts 19 we find the 12 Ephesians receiving the Holy Spirit for the first time which not only satisfied Paul regarding their conversion-initiation but where Luke saw fit to record this event in Acts.

Nothing is mentioned regarding Lydia’s conversion (Acts 16:14).

With Paul’s three day conversion experience (Acts 9), the culmination of his conversion-initiation is with Acts 9:17 where he was filled with the Holy Spirit. There is no record that he spoke in tongues at this point but as his conversion was certainly out of the ordinary, once he had received revelation from the Lord regarding how he could pray in the Spirit, then this could have happened days, weeks or maybe months later which is how it occurred for me along with millions of others.

Are you maybe referring to the class-Pentecostal position of subsequence where the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is supposed to follow after our first being 'sealed' in the Spirit at Salvation?

sorry i thought i replied already but where i was staying on the GC last week had rather eratic wifi .. (yeah thats a dig haha)
now im sure i typed a wonderful reply and it was quite likely a stunning one too ..err ahem ..

any way -anyways... just referring to the last bit .. - i do not think or know much at al really . ..i think it is not is a case that one must be sealed in the spirit at salvation before one is baptized in the Spirit .rather i see it as the baptism of the holy Ghost is Gods sealing the deal with us once we have -by faith alone - believed in him !.. and that faith has ,from the heart sprung forth out of our lips . then the lord sort of says right since you have placed your faith in my word (Jesus) here is my deposit .. my sealing down-payment finalizing the covenant between you and I . and he then acknowledged that covenant from his end by baptizing us in His Holy Spirit .. it is his signature being signed on the epistle of our life .
quiet blatantly , and in the face of some who oppose ,& with obvious risk of offending many - i will say , i believe that though many are called ..one is not chosen (acknowledged) until one has been baptized in the Holy Ghost .
without faith we cannot please god and without faith God will not acknowledge any part of out salvation for it is by faith alone . thus when one doubts the need for God to sign his name on the covenant (so to speak), one has not yet abandoned themselves in faith of Him. and risks being found unsaved on the day of his return .

and if one cant testify of his seal of approval in their life then they simply do not have it
(now let it be known that each ones perception of his seal differs as much as we all differ in relationship with him -but in whatever perception we testify from.. we can all still testify- and as it is before God who knows the hearts of men ..as long as we can testify in clear conscience then .. it is done and his love is being perfected in us )

in the day of Solomon .. the temple was built .. then the temple was consecrated, dedicated etc . all by the shedding of blood .. when all that was done, then -
then the lord filed the temple with HIS glory ..
know ye not that we are the temple now .. and all is done by the shedding of the blood of the lamb of GOD Jesus , so now believer should cast off every semblance of unbelief and wait on God to fill the temple of their heart with his own Glory .. with the Holy Ghost and stop stubbornly;y resisting him residence in his rightful place which he has redeemed for himself and consecrated by his own blood that he may dwell there in -forever .

Alithis · Aug 6, 2015

Johnlove1 said:
Proving one’s self to others is not important. How one looks to people does not matter.

It is how one looks to one’s self that matters. One knows if it is God teaching him or her by the fruit produced.

If one sins then that is rotten fruit, and it is a rotten tree that is producing that fruit.

(1 John 3:8) “Whoever lives sinfully belongs to the devil, since thedevilhas been a sinner from the beginning. This was the purpose of the appearing of the Son of God, to undo the work of the devil.

The Holy Spirit lets one know if he or she is living God’s Word, and one does not need to prove that to people.

yes i agree -albeit we need to be prepared to give answer when asked about the things of faith . but not, as you say ,in defense of "self " but rather in defense of our 'faith"

Johnlove1 · Aug 6, 2015

Alithis said:
yes i agree -albeit we need to be prepared to give answer when asked about the things of faith . but not, as you say ,in defense of "self " but rather in defense of our 'faith"

Speaking for myself Jesus/Holy Spirit gives me the words to share, and also when it is time for me to do so.

lismore · Aug 8, 2015

Michael Collum said:
I recall in some places the speaking of tongues is used as evidence of receiving the holy spirit. But what about the fruit of the spirit?

Hello Michael

In my opinion there are many pieces of evidence that someone has received the Holy Spirit. I don't think it's a narrow 'one size fits all experience'.

For example, the Holy Spirit is the one who comes alongside. I have seen several believers, especially in big churches who come alongside visitors or those people on their own and befriend them. To me this is the Holy Spirit's work.

Then there is comfort. Some believers comfort others, especially those carrying things with them, bereavement or past torments. To me to comfort someone in pan is the Holy Spirit's work too.

God Bless you

razzelflabben · Aug 8, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Let's all admit that with the Holy Spirit 'tangible' is indeed subjective to each believer in this day and age. Depending on whom is speaking, the Holy Spirit to them may have 'tanglible' qualities and to others they may not see this as 'tangible' or proveable.

It seems that you are asking us to believe that God is no longer the same yesterday, today, and forever. If that is your intent, I am sorry, I can't go there with you.

The gift of tongues is seen by some as being 'tangible' evidence, but that is even subjective to the individual. Most people that believe in their gift, if they have tongues, is because they have that gift themselves and experience the 'tangible' results of having that gift.

I must have a different meaning for tangible...how would you define tangible?

razzelflabben · Aug 8, 2015

Biblicist2 said:
It seems that having had to apologise once this week that maybe I need to do it a second time!

You have my apologies as I simply presumed by your approach on this particular thread that you were coming from a cessationist background. I started to do a check before I compiled my reply with some of your other threads but this does not seem to be as easy as it was under the old one - maybe its been a long week for me.

So if I can ask (where hopefully my question won't add fuel to the flames), I gather that you are quite content to see Christians praying in the Spirit (tongues)?

as long as it is genuine, I am all down with it.

By genuine, let me offer this explanation. We have a friend who became demon possessed by being "taught" to speak in tongues...this is not only biblically acceptable, but is not a genuine speaking of tongues by the power of the HS. I will without hesitation reject any "spiritual" activity that does not show the power of the HS and I will without hesitation accept any "spiritual" activity that does show the power of the HS. My issue isn't with how the HS works, but with claiming HS power when none is shown. And maybe, that helps you understand why I believe that the fruit of the spirit is a much better and much more biblical concept for evidencing the HS than is any of the things we usually try to claim are. Matt. 7:22; I Cor. 13:1-3....see, I believe scripture when it says that with the HS will come the fruit of the spirit. I believe scripture when it says that we will bear fruits by the spirit. Just because in the new believer, the fruit is not fully matured (it isn't in anyone this side of heaven) doesn't mean it isn't there. When it is there, it is obvious that the tongues or whatever other gift we want to talk about, is by the power of the HS and not by some other power trying to pretend to be an "angel of light".

As to your claims of me being a cessationist, some here have accused me of such because I am not an amen no matter what scripture says kind of person, but someone making a false claim does NOT indicate they are speaking truth. I could NOT be a cessationist and still take scripture for what it says about the HS much less live in Christ the way I do live, as one who has been gifted by the HS.

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