What is so wrong with socialism?

buzuxi02 · Aug 4, 2015

Whats decent social welfare?
Free college education?
Free viagra and birth control?
Free rent for single mothers?

How about the moral hazard of career college students, high single women pregnancy rates ( something that is extremely high in heterogeneous societies).

How much of a persons fruit of their labor should go to such services? But not only those services but every other. I dont believe the Australian system is much different than the American its all british based. I prefer a smaller government where I can keep more of the fruits of my labor. Is 39% corporate tax rate high, how about 50% to keep government functioning? Personally I believe 39% is too high, I believe 25% is as well. Heck even the bible only advocated a 10% tithe

ebia · Aug 4, 2015

buzuxi02 said:
Whats decent social welfare?

Free healthcare for all.
A liveable minimum wage.
A decent free healthcare system
Free education until year 12
Affordable education beyond year 12
A passable safety net

How about the moral hazard of career college students, high single women pregnancy rates ( something that is extremely high in heterogeneous societies).

What?

Why are some so scared that someone out there might get more than they need?

How much of a persons fruit of their labor should go to such services? But not only those services but every other. I dont believe the Australian system is much different than the American its all british based. I prefer a smaller government where I can keep more of the fruits of my labor. Is 39% corporate tax rate high, how about 50% to keep government functioning? Personally I believe 39% is too high, I believe 25% is as well. Heck even the bible only advocated a 10% tithe

except that it does. There's the right to gleen, for example. The primary accumulated wealth in the OT is land, and there Jubilee applies. It also envisages a societal structure that looks after people; it wasn't written to address North American hyper-individualism because that's a completely alien worldview.

buzuxi02 · Aug 4, 2015

But that still doesnt answer the question. How much free healthcate?

Im of the opinion that healthcare should not cost as much as it does to begin with.
Should only include catastrophic cases not for a $50-100 doctor visit to get a prescription for the common cold.

Ok, free education till year 12, I agree but I still think school budgets are atrocious and its one area where costs have risen in the past 40 years without improvement. (Atleast this is the case in NY). Atleast where I am we get to vote whether we want to approve a school budget.

There are state and community based colleges already in place, low cost but not free. But just like healthcare, universities are in on the scam. With easy tuition loans they exponentially raise their costs knowing the naive student will get financed for even a useless degree. Which is why college education should never be socialized.

KWCrazy · Aug 4, 2015

amanuensis63 said:
OK, then why did W. get us involved in a war in Iraq that we couldn't afford and then play games with the bookkeeping?

The president cannot declare war. Learn something about civics.
We had been at war with Iraq since 1991 since they violated the cease-fire. That's why Clinton could lob a few missiles at them any time he needed a distraction. In 2002 Congress authorized the use of force to remove a violent, oppressive regime that was the world's leading sponsor of terrorism. Re-read the use of force resolution.

Why do we give

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any subsidies to oil companies? Why does our tax system allow corporations like GE to pay no taxes whatsoever?

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We don't. Want to read the truth?

I don't know what kind of rotting post-apocalyptic hellscape you live and work in, but it doesn't really reflect most of the US that I've experienced. And I've lived and worked in 8 states. I've never met that many slackers...but it seems you have found the place that is nothing but slackers.

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In the survey, Schenck interviewed 126 manufacturers. The companies consisted of a wide range of specified businesses, including metal fabrication plants, foundries, medical supply companies and computer equipment manufacturers.

When the companies were asked how much their sales growth and company expansion opportunities suffered because of the labor shortage, almost 30 percent responded with “significantly.” Over half responded with “somewhat” and more than 11 percent said “not at all.” More than 6 percent said, “More than any other challenge.” ...

Industry is being starved of highly-skilled workers because of a shortage in the number of teenagers studying subjects such as science and maths to a high level, business leaders warned today.

Companies are facing a crippling “skills gap” as tens of thousands of engineers retire without finding well-trained apprentices and graduates to replace them, it was claimed. ...

The fact is I know of several businesses that couldn't stay open because they couldn't find people willing to work. One of them had an average starting pay of $50K per year and only required 2 years experience. It's no joke that there is a shortage of decent workers, not only in this country but throughout the industrial world.

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KWCrazy · Aug 4, 2015

amanuensis63 said:
Can you tell me why the majority of Middle Class workers would make such a choice that would stagnate them for a lifetime?

They voted for Obama.

ebia · Aug 4, 2015

buzuxi02 said:
But that still doesnt answer the question. How much free healthcate?

Im of the opinion that healthcare should not cost as much as it does to begin with.
Should only include catastrophic cases not for a $50-100 doctor visit to get a prescription for the common cold.

a good GP system keeps people healthy and reduces the cost of the whole system. And keeps people productive. Just picking up the catastrophes is a very expensive way to do healthcare.

Your school education system delivers poor outcomes not because it's overfunded but because it's full of political and local interference, making decisions that are educationally poor. Like an obsession with standardised testing, or "every child left-behind", or performance related pay. If you want good value schools you leave as much decision making as possible up to the educators, and you value the educators.

KWCrazy · Aug 4, 2015

ebia said:
Free healthcare for all.
A liveable minimum wage.
A decent free healthcare system
Free education until year 12
Affordable education beyond year 12
A passable safety net

Nothing is free.
Should a doctor spend a third of his life in school so he can work for free?
You aren't entitled to have others pay for your health care.
You aren't entitled to have others pay for your education.
A school which delivers a premium education should be allowed to charge for the services they provide.
You aren't entitled to live off your neighbors.
You aren't entitled to share the wealth of others. That's theft; whether you take it yourself or elect others to take it for you.
You aren't entitled to benefit from resources that are not yours.
You certainly are not entitled to make others purchase a product you think they should have or pay a fine.
If you want something, earn it. If you take it, you're a thief. Theft is a sin.
Coveting the wealth of others is a sin.
Hating those who are more successful in life is a sin.

America has become a nation of infants unwilling to leave their mother's breast and stand on their own two feet.

ebia · Aug 4, 2015

KWCrazy said:
Nothing is free.

"Free" in this case is clear and common shorthand for "free at point of use"

Sorry, I don't buy into your individualist ideology.

Nor is it some kind of default state.

The idea of inheritance, companies, infrastructure that supports your business, money, are social constructs just as much as social welfare.

buzuxi02 · Aug 4, 2015

So you agree its government intrusion. Actually its more than that, it goes back to the heterogeneous society. Why do asian students always score the highest while other groups are always on the bottom?
The school system in my area is actually excellent yet its still costs too much. And yes as a microcosm the school district in my area is homogenous, culture does play a huge role.

How is picking up the costs of those actually going into the hospital expensive? Why should the taxpayer cover the cost of a doctor's visit when that same individual doesnt mine blowing hundreds at his local cabaret every month?
Obviously if a person needs surgery and requires down time he cannot afford that. It will cost tens of thousands plus he cannot work.

Then theres social security. Works great when you have a large young population working. But as the population ages the government pyramid scheme shows its cracks. Why should a young person in an aging country be taxed to fund something so inefficient. He would be better off to invest it on his own yet the older generation attempt to tell him otherwise to keep their cash cow mooing.

ChristsSoldier115 · Aug 4, 2015

buzuxi02 said:
So you agree its government intrusion. Actually its more than that, it goes back to the heterogeneous society. Why do asian students always score the highest while other groups are always on the bottom?
The school system in my area is actually excellent yet its still costs too much. And yes as a microcosm the school district in my area is homogenous, culture does play a huge role.

How is picking up the costs of those actually going into the hospital expensive? Why should the taxpayer cover the cost of a doctor's visit when that same individual doesnt mine blowing hundreds at his local cabaret every month?
Obviously if a person needs surgery and requires down time he cannot afford that. It will cost tens of thousands plus he cannot work.

Then theres social security. Works great when you have a large young population working. But as the population ages the government pyramid scheme shows its cracks. Why should a young person in an aging country be taxed to fund something so inefficient. He would be better off to invest it on his own yet the older generation attempt to tell him otherwise to keep their cash cow mooing.

The problem with America's current system is that the old standard of the local community being the safety net for those who slipped through has all but vanished over the past 80 years thanks to more people moving to the city and away from farms. Cities have one big social dynamic issue: alienation. It is full of people who live together, but are living entirely on their own. Unless america figures out how to restore the local community that has been crushed under the heel of industrialization, it will not correct itself, unless people believe in the idea of social darwinism or something. Social darwinism is quite frankly the opposite of christianity in practice.

buzuxi02 · Aug 4, 2015

Christssoldier,

I would agree. And I would say this is what the future holds for many countries.
The thing is most people are pulled to the cities precisely because of this alienation. The cities do not require social constraints, you do what you want, believe what you want, date who you want, etc.
But this is why I say socialism may work in a smaller homogenous society where everyone is on the same page rather than a large heterogeneous society where people carve out niche societies to belong to. There is a slogan that "competition breed success". But at what costs?
Let me take this out of the area of economics and see how this 'alienation' in a large city which is heterogeneous not monolithic.There is a place in NY called Astoria. Men comment how the women in this area are the "hottest" in all of NY. Its very diverse with a lively social scene. Why is it that women seem more attractive in this part of Queens? Simply because the greek, serbian, romanian, lebanese, egyptian, korean, hispanic, irish, chinese, albanian, and native girls are all in competition with each other! Benefits the men, when one says the girls from the balkans are the hottest, the lebsnese girls pick up their game, when the good looking american boy dates the exotic asian girl, the american girl joins the gym and dresses up more elegantly, etc. Yes this phenomenon is observable in this town.

My whole point is heterogeneous societies are in competition with each other. The same way european countries were in competition with each other, fearing war with each other which in turn made them the most advanced continent. Perhaps this is social darwinism, sort of is, except that it raised all boats.

ChristsSoldier115 · Aug 4, 2015

buzuxi02 said:
Christssoldier,

I would agree. And I would say this is what the future holds for many countries.
The thing is most people are pulled to the cities precisely because of this alienation. The cities do not require social constraints, you do what you want, believe what you want, date who you want, etc.
But this is why I say socialism may work in a smaller homogenous society where everyone is on the same page rather than a large heterogeneous society where people carve out niche societies to belong to. There is a slogan that "competition breed success". But at what costs?
Let me take this out of the area of economics and see how this 'alienation' in a large city which is heterogeneous not monolithic.There is a place in NY called Astoria. Men comment how the women in this area are the "hottest" in all of NY. Its very diverse with a lively social scene. Why is it that women seem more attractive in this part of Queens? Simply because the greek, serbian, romanian, lebanese, egyptian, korean, hispanic, irish, chinese, albanian, and native girls are all in competition with each other! Benefits the men, when one says the girls from the balkans are the hottest, the lebsnese girls pick up their game, when the good looking american boy dates the exotic asian girl, the american girl joins the gym and dresses up more elegantly, etc. Yes this phenomenon is observable in this town.

My whole point is heterogeneous societies are in competition with each other. The same way european countries were in competition with each other, fearing war with each other which in turn made them the most advanced continent. Perhaps this is social darwinism, sort of is, except that it raised all boats.

I would say every country is heterogeneous on the large scale. There is no country in the world that is comprised of a single people group. We need to figure out what is working for them and what is working for us, and then figure out what is not working for them, and what can't work for us. If you want to have an idea, there is a missionary web site called joshuaproject.net that systematically identified just about every people group in the world in every country. America has over 470 separate people groups.

ebia · Aug 4, 2015

buzuxi02 said:
So you agree its government intrusion.

I don't think I did

Actually its more than that, it goes back to the heterogeneous society. Why do asian students always score the highest while other groups are always on the bottom?

What? You keep going back to "heterogeneous society", but Australia is just as heterogenous.

The school system in my area is actually excellent yet its still costs too much.

Too much for what?
An excellent school system feeds back into a thriving economy. It's a long term investment by the community that pays back in the long run.

And yes as a microcosm the school district in my area is homogenous, culture does play a huge role.

How is picking up the costs of those actually going into the hospital expensive?

Good GP systems keep people healthy, so you get a lot less need for the critical stuff, and a lot less people off work.

Why should the taxpayer cover the cost of a doctor's visit when that same individual doesnt mine blowing hundreds at his local cabaret every month?

Inverted jelosy. "Nobody must have something they didn't pay for, even if it saves money to give it to them".

Then theres social security. Works great when you have a large young population working. But as the population ages the government pyramid scheme shows its cracks. Why should a young person in an aging country be taxed to fund something so inefficient. He would be better off to invest it on his own yet the older generation attempt to tell him otherwise to keep their cash cow mooing.

Doesn't solve the problem. Wealth is still only generated by those working.

LionL · Aug 5, 2015

miniverchivi said:
I didn't say anything about punishing anyone. Not giving a person someone else's money doesn't equate to "punishment".

But making them live in poorer conditions, giving them less holidays, a poorer diet, longer hours, poorer housing etc seems like punishment. It seems unfair. That's the main issue for me.

LionL · Aug 5, 2015

Loudmouth said:
I find it hard to believe that America can't do what nearly every other 1st World nation can do. France can have affordable and accessible healthcare, but the US can't? Really?

I agree. And you seem to agree with me too so I'm not sure why you quoted me.

Jan Volkes · Aug 5, 2015

KWCrazy said:
It's neither.
It's the big government liberals pushing a nanny state who tell people they can never reach the top 10%.
When business owners get wealthy their employees have jobs. When they lose money, the plants close and their workers have no jobs. When the wealthy put their money in banks others have investment capital. When they buy planes, those workers have jobs. When they buy yachts, builders, dealerships and captains benefit. When they die and pass it on to the next generation, their children usually blow the fortune and the process starts over.
Nobody hordes wealth under their pillow.

Nobody truly owns anything. We have things which we control, including our wealth. We don't take it with us when we die. Someone else assumes control of it. We may think we own land, but the land was there before us and will remain when we're gone. The truly rich man lays up his treasure in Heaven, where it will benefit him for eternity. The only truly wealthy man is one whose Father is the Lord and whose Lord is Jesus Christ.

Those who hate others who have more or covet the wealth another has created are simply pathetic.

I have news for you, you will never even reach the top 75%, it's a lie told to Americans to keep them quiet.

You are obviously one of those people who think trickle down economics actually works, well it doesn't,
today the American millionaires and billionaires shop all over the world because they can either get it cheaper or made better
in countries other than the US, which means the money is spent elsewhere and other countries get the benefits.

Billionaires rarely put their money in banks they invest it all over the world, if they do put it into a bank I doubt it would be an American bank it would be in offshore accounts like the Romney's use for tax reasons, they don't even pay tax in the US,
they take the money out of America and spend it in other countries, if there is trickle down it happens in other countries.

Here's one case, an American cruise line company wanted a ship built and they wanted it to be the biggest liner in the world, where did they go to have it made? STX Europe Turku Shipyard in Finland, they have since built 2 more and 1 more is planned,
They cost 1.5 billion dollars each, that's an awful lot of money spent in Finnish businesses, BTW Finland is one of those nanny state countries you mentioned.

Most Americans believe they are millionaires waiting to happen, it's a cruel lie told to every American school child,
bright smart people do not need to live in America to become millionaires, admittedly there are more gullible people in the US from whom you can take money, but as far as business is concerned lots of people in every country become millionaires and billionaires.

ThatRobGuy · Aug 5, 2015

LionL said:
But making them live in poorer conditions, giving them less holidays, a poorer diet, longer hours, poorer housing etc seems like punishment. It seems unfair. That's the main issue for me.

I'm not making them do anything...

...and society's definition of what's considered unlivable punishment has definitely shifted...a person living in the great depression would have a different definition.

...and while I think you & I would agree that an change in educational policy would definitely alleviate some of the generational poverty (it's the one area where I break ranks from my usual libertarian ideology), in my mind, that in no way makes a case for socialism. (since I don't classify education as 'means of production') To me, that makes a case for a demand for more government accountability in regards to the money they already have.

We have an entity (the government) that's been tasked with certain action items, one of which being:
...Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States;

They're already collecting over $3.1 Trillion from us (close to $10,000 per citizen)...close to 2/3 of that is already being spent on matters of defense and general welfare...yet some in Washington have everyone convinced that "the issue isn't that we're terrible at managing money and creating feasible budgets...the issue is that the guy who's already paying 35% of his income is being difficult about wanting to pay 39% instead!"

ThatRobGuy · Aug 5, 2015

Loudmouth said:
Do you think a CEO works 1,000 times harder than the janitor who cleans his office?

Nope, do you think the janitor has the same degree of responsibilities and liabilities?

Loudmouth said:
When you work just as hard but make more money, what should we call that?

Supply & Demand

If the skills you possess have a certain level of rarity, then you're able to get a higher level of compensation for them.

In terms of rarity, there's a tipping point...and that point is when you go from "competing with others to see who's going to work at a company"...to..."companies competing with each other to see who's going to be able to get you to work for them"

Willtor · Aug 5, 2015

miniverchivi said:
Nope, do you think the janitor has the same degree of responsibilities and liabilities?

Supply & Demand

If the skills you possess have a certain level of rarity, then you're able to get a higher level of compensation for them.

In terms of rarity, there's a tipping point...and that point is when you go from "competing with others to see who's going to work at a company"...to..."companies competing with each other to see who's going to be able to get you to work for them"

You're fighting something that nobody is defending. The CEO should make more than the janitor.

The point that is being made is that the janitor should make a living wage, have access to adequate healthcare, and not fear poverty in retirement. And why not? This is true of other countries, now. It was even true of the U.S. at one time.

ThatRobGuy · Aug 5, 2015

Willtor said:
You're fighting something that nobody is defending. The CEO should make more than the janitor.

The point that is being made is that the janitor should make a living wage, have access to adequate healthcare, and not fear poverty in retirement. And why not? This is true of other countries, now. It was even true of the U.S. at one time.

It seemed as if the poster I was replying to was hung up on the fact that the CEO made x-times what the employees made...

What's also true in other countries is that they're trying to achieve that goal with a "demonize the rich" mentality.

In the US, people have been sold on this false idea that the reason we can't have all of those things is because the rich are being stubborn about paying more in taxes. This notion that..."They're resisting paying 39% instead of 35%...that's why we have problems!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates

We have the 6th highest max tax rate in the world on our wealthy folks, and the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

I don't think the issue is needing even more money for distribution...I think the issue is that the government needs to have some accountability and make some smart decisions with the $3 Trillion they already get every year before going back to the well to get more.

Reign in military spending, end the costly war on drugs, stop some of the foreign aid, stop the massive subsidies and bailouts, stop spending money on expired programs (http://thehill.com/policy/finance/241304-mccain-highlights-billions-in-wasteful-government-spending)

All of these things are ways to free up funds they already have rather than having to go back and dip into peoples' wallets again.

What is so wrong with socialism?

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