Why was Christ's sacrifice necessary?

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I'm sorry for this question– I feel a bit uncomfortable just asking it, but I'd be lying if I claimed that it weren't on my mind. I'm an agnostic who's been thinking more and more about Christianity lately. The more I absorb the beauty of the Gospels (as cheesy as this might sound, the justly-vaunted John 3:16 has made me tear up with sheer gratitude before), the more potential I feel for a relationship with Christ. But I've arrived at a strange thought, and it's getting in the way of things. I'm happy to accept that I'm in error, but, so that I might become a better believer, I'd like my error explained to me and my thinking corrected.

Here's the thought: as I understand it, humankind was in a state of irredeemable sin before Christ. God, in His infinite mercy, chose to absolve humankind of its sins, and sent Christ (at once God and man) to redeem humankind by suffering and dying on the cross. His death "paid for" the sin, making God's absolution available to anyone who accepted it (by following Christ). But if God wanted to absolve humankind in the first place, and the absolved sin was a sin against God, then why didn't He just... absolve them? What was stopping God from redeeming humankind?– that is, what "rule" could possibly have constrained God such that only Christ's "payment" could make redemption possible? To whom was Christ's "payment" made?

To use an analogy, imagine that Joe owes ten billion dollars to Fred, a debt that he wouldn't be able to repay if he worked every minute of every day for the rest of his life. Fred says to Joe: "I know that you can't pay me back, but not to worry! I'm going to forgive your debt." Fred then takes ten billion dollars of his own money, gives it to Bob, waits for Bob to get sick and die, and takes the money back from him. "Be grateful to Bob," says Fred to Joe. "He paid your debt for you." Fred didn't need to bring Bob into this at all. If he wanted to forgive Joe's debt, all he had to do was say "you're off the hook."

I know that I'm missing some crucial detail here, but I don't yet know what it is. If I'm to become a Christian, I'm going to need to get past this question. Thanks dearly for helping me.
 
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oi_antz

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I'm sorry for this question– I feel a bit uncomfortable just asking it, but I'd be lying if I claimed that it weren't on my mind. I'm an agnostic who's been thinking more and more about Christianity lately. The more I absorb the beauty of the Gospels (as cheesy as this might sound, the justly-vaunted John 3:16 has made me tear up with sheer gratitude before), the more potential I feel for a relationship with Christ. But I've arrived at a strange thought, and it's getting in the way of things. I'm happy to accept that I'm in error, but, so that I might become a better believer, I'd like my error explained to me and my thinking corrected.

Here's the thought: as I understand it, humankind was in a state of irredeemable sin before Christ. God, in His infinite mercy, chose to absolve humankind of its sins, and sent Christ (at once God and man) to redeem humankind by suffering and dying on the cross. His death "paid for" the sin, making God's absolution available to anyone who accepted it (by following Christ). But if God wanted to absolve humankind in the first place, and the absolved sin was a sin against God, then why didn't He just... absolve them? What was stopping God from redeeming humankind?– that is, what "rule" could possibly have constrained God such that only Christ's "payment" could make redemption possible? To whom was Christ's "payment" made?

To use an analogy, imagine that Joe owes ten billion dollars to Fred, a debt that he wouldn't be able to repay if he worked every minute of every day for the rest of his life. Fred says to Joe: "I know that you can't pay me back, but not to worry! I'm going to forgive your debt." Fred then takes ten billion dollars of his own money, gives it to Bob, waits for Bob to get sick and die, and takes the money back from him. "Be grateful to Bob," says Fred to Joe. "He paid your debt for you." Fred didn't need to bring Bob into this at all. If he wanted to forgive Joe's debt, all he had to do was say "you're off the hook."

I know that I'm missing some crucial detail here, but I don't yet know what it is. If I'm to become a Christian, I'm going to need to get past this question. Thanks dearly for helping me.
"If he wanted to forgive Joe's debt, all he had to do was say "you're off the hook." - this is exactly right. Having someone murder your innocent son can in no logical way make forgiveness any easier. This is why PSA falls apart when it begins getting questioned. In fact, the more reliable way to think about it is to consider the truth in the parable of the wicked farmers in Matthew 21. Here, we do not see that Jesus describes His mission as being one to die on behalf of anyone, but rather to collect the fruit that was due to the owner of the vineyard. As we apply this parable to the true events, we observe the religious leaders did not want to give the fruit of the kingdom of God to Jehovah, so instead they killed Jesus to continue using the kingdom for their own means (traditionally, religion is used to subdue and influence societies - and we see the way the kingdom was used in observing Jesus chasing out temple money changers with a whip). At this point, we observe in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus tells Peter as He healed the soldier's ear: "If I wanted to fight, do you think I couldn't call upon legions of angels? No, but let this happen so the scriptures can be fulfilled that say it must happen this way".

Since it is better to learn by coming to conclusions rather than accepting other people's conclusions, let me ask you this: if He had have brought on the angels and conquered the evil religious leaders with force, to take the kingdom of God in His name by force, do you think that everyone would bow their knee in love or would some begrudgingly bow their knee in fearful obligation? Also, was there another option at that point than to fight or submit?
 
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Since it is better to learn by coming to conclusions rather than accepting other people's conclusions, let me ask you this: if He had have brought on the angels and conquered the evil religious leaders with force, to take the kingdom of God in His name by force, do you think that everyone would bow their knee in love or would some begrudgingly bow their knee in fearful obligation? Also, was there another option at that point than to fight or submit?
Well, I would imagine that there's a profound difference between belief from faith and belief from evidence, and that God demands belief from faith as the sole ticket to salvation. Which is to say that I see what you mean. The idea of making such a substantial alteration to what I'd long thought of as a fundamental Christian idea (the sacrifice as a necessary condition for salvation, I mean) is jarring, but then, what I'd thought I knew about Christianity is changing now that I've sat down to read the Bible. Matthew's Jesus is a far more intimidating and enigmatic figure than what one might come to expect from the culture of contemporary Christians (I've never been a Christian, but it's hard to grow up in America without absorbing the basics of mainstream American Christianity). I need to read more and more and more and more.
 
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Soyeong

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To use an analogy, imagine that Joe owes ten billion dollars to Fred, a debt that he wouldn't be able to repay if he worked every minute of every day for the rest of his life. Fred says to Joe: "I know that you can't pay me back, but not to worry! I'm going to forgive your debt." Fred then takes ten billion dollars of his own money, gives it to Bob, waits for Bob to get sick and die, and takes the money back from him. "Be grateful to Bob," says Fred to Joe. "He paid your debt for you." Fred didn't need to bring Bob into this at all. If he wanted to forgive Joe's debt, all he had to do was say "you're off the hook."

Hello,

When you forgive someone's debt, it's not as easy as just letting them off the hook, but you must also absorb the loss by taking it on yourself. In other words, if someone owes you $100 and you forgive their debt, then it's like you transferred their debt to you. Similarly, the penalty of sin is death, so forgiving our sins it's not as simple as letting us off the hook, but God must also take the penalty on Himself.
 
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Soyeong

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Well, I would imagine that there's a profound difference between belief from faith and belief from evidence,

All beliefs are based on evidence. Faith is essentially the belief that someone of something is trustworthy, which is based on the evidence for their trustworthiness.
 
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oi_antz

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The idea of making such a substantial alteration to what I'd long thought of as a fundamental Christian idea (the sacrifice as a necessary condition for salvation, I mean) is jarring, but then, what I'd thought I knew about Christianity is changing now that I've sat down to read the Bible.
I found it quite shocking too, and I was initially very angry when I discovered that PSA is not rooted in scripture. My anger has subsided a bit, but it is still noticeable. It is the single one doctrine that makes God seem like a tyrant who is out for blood. It contradicts the truth of His infinite love and mercy, and it actually mocks forgiveness. Also, because so many Christians are afraid to question this doctrine since it has first formed the basis of their belief, instead they will believe PSA doctrines and promote this misrepresentation of His character without question.

But, yes the resurrection (note: His whole life was a sacrifice Philippians 2:7-8) is essential to redemption from sin, because it is the basis upon which we have a real hope in joining Him forever, and it therefore motivates us to not give up as we fight the desires of the flesh. Without the resurrection, our faith would not have such a real hope, it would be a distant hope, an unproven theory about afterlife, and some who might otherwise be obedient probably would exchange their inheritance for present hungers (Re: Jacob and Esau).

Salvation consists of three things:

1. Forgiveness of sin (to be accepted, to have no error held against one's self, so that we can approach God in confidence)
2. Everlasting life (to live without end, having fruit from the tree of life Genesis 3:22, Revelation 2:7)
3. Holiness (to actively repent of sin, to deny the self in order to do what is right, to exercise the discipline of Jesus Christ)

1 is not affected by the cross, because Jesus was able to forgive sin even before He was crucified. 2 is proven by the resurrection, since we know He lives forever, we know that it is not impossible for God. 3 is the result of us choosing to do the right thing, and although priests and prophets did this before the time of Jesus, the privilege of acceptance is understood by everyone throughout the world as being available to them, even as Gentiles.
 
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Hospes

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I'm sorry for this question– I feel a bit uncomfortable just asking it, but I'd be lying if I claimed that it weren't on my mind. I'm an agnostic who's been thinking more and more about Christianity lately. The more I absorb the beauty of the Gospels (as cheesy as this might sound, the justly-vaunted John 3:16 has made me tear up with sheer gratitude before), the more potential I feel for a relationship with Christ. But I've arrived at a strange thought, and it's getting in the way of things. I'm happy to accept that I'm in error, but, so that I might become a better believer, I'd like my error explained to me and my thinking corrected.

Here's the thought: as I understand it, humankind was in a state of irredeemable sin before Christ. God, in His infinite mercy, chose to absolve humankind of its sins, and sent Christ (at once God and man) to redeem humankind by suffering and dying on the cross. His death "paid for" the sin, making God's absolution available to anyone who accepted it (by following Christ). But if God wanted to absolve humankind in the first place, and the absolved sin was a sin against God, then why didn't He just... absolve them? What was stopping God from redeeming humankind?– that is, what "rule" could possibly have constrained God such that only Christ's "payment" could make redemption possible? To whom was Christ's "payment" made?

To use an analogy, imagine that Joe owes ten billion dollars to Fred, a debt that he wouldn't be able to repay if he worked every minute of every day for the rest of his life. Fred says to Joe: "I know that you can't pay me back, but not to worry! I'm going to forgive your debt." Fred then takes ten billion dollars of his own money, gives it to Bob, waits for Bob to get sick and die, and takes the money back from him. "Be grateful to Bob," says Fred to Joe. "He paid your debt for you." Fred didn't need to bring Bob into this at all. If he wanted to forgive Joe's debt, all he had to do was say "you're off the hook."

I know that I'm missing some crucial detail here, but I don't yet know what it is. If I'm to become a Christian, I'm going to need to get past this question. Thanks dearly for helping me.
I think you may be missing the injustice of unpunished evil. Imagine a judge, having become convinced of a serial child molester's repentance, justifying - to use the Biblical term - the rapist and setting him free. You can imagine the righteous outcry against the judge for not giving justice. I think in your question "why didn't He just... absolve them" is asking why can't God place himself in the same position as a the unjust judge. Through the Cross, God proved just and justifier. Here is a passage that may help shed some light on your question. It's a passage describing people redeemed by God. (The verses immediately before you may also find useful.)

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (Colossians 2:13-14 ESV)​

Hope this helps.
 
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Hawkins

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I'm sorry for this question– I feel a bit uncomfortable just asking it, but I'd be lying if I claimed that it weren't on my mind. I'm an agnostic who's been thinking more and more about Christianity lately. The more I absorb the beauty of the Gospels (as cheesy as this might sound, the justly-vaunted John 3:16 has made me tear up with sheer gratitude before), the more potential I feel for a relationship with Christ. But I've arrived at a strange thought, and it's getting in the way of things. I'm happy to accept that I'm in error, but, so that I might become a better believer, I'd like my error explained to me and my thinking corrected.

Here's the thought: as I understand it, humankind was in a state of irredeemable sin before Christ. God, in His infinite mercy, chose to absolve humankind of its sins, and sent Christ (at once God and man) to redeem humankind by suffering and dying on the cross. His death "paid for" the sin, making God's absolution available to anyone who accepted it (by following Christ). But if God wanted to absolve humankind in the first place, and the absolved sin was a sin against God, then why didn't He just... absolve them? What was stopping God from redeeming humankind?– that is, what "rule" could possibly have constrained God such that only Christ's "payment" could make redemption possible? To whom was Christ's "payment" made?

To use an analogy, imagine that Joe owes ten billion dollars to Fred, a debt that he wouldn't be able to repay if he worked every minute of every day for the rest of his life. Fred says to Joe: "I know that you can't pay me back, but not to worry! I'm going to forgive your debt." Fred then takes ten billion dollars of his own money, gives it to Bob, waits for Bob to get sick and die, and takes the money back from him. "Be grateful to Bob," says Fred to Joe. "He paid your debt for you." Fred didn't need to bring Bob into this at all. If he wanted to forgive Joe's debt, all he had to do was say "you're off the hook."

I know that I'm missing some crucial detail here, but I don't yet know what it is. If I'm to become a Christian, I'm going to need to get past this question. Thanks dearly for helping me.

It is more of a legal message but conveyed in the form of a religion as a vessel or carrier for the message.

When you, as a human is sentenced to death in accordance to a particular set of laws, then how can you be saved legitimately?

You can only be saved if the same set of laws also specifies that the self sacrifice of God in a form can compensate your crime and save you from the death penalty.

God cannot be harmed physically, but He can be hurt. The sinning of humans keeps hurting Him. Throwing insults onto His name may hurt Him the most. Once upon a time humans bear the similar sense, they duel with life to protect their names. Modern humans lost this sense though, they already get used to swallowing insults today.

God thus never told His true name to humans. He always said that "I am who I am", that's the name He made known to the Jews, that is, "I am who I am". The only name He gives to receive insults is "Jesus". That's why the insulting of the Holy Spirit (God) is an unforgivable sin, however you can insult Jesus. As a matter of fact, the name of Jesus has been insulted by humans from His death on the cross till now and possibly will last till the world ends.

In the Book of Revelation it is said that Jesus will return and He will be with a new name which He will only tell His believers.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'm sorry for this question– I feel a bit uncomfortable just asking it, but I'd be lying if I claimed that it weren't on my mind. I'm an agnostic who's been thinking more and more about Christianity lately. The more I absorb the beauty of the Gospels (as cheesy as this might sound, the justly-vaunted John 3:16 has made me tear up with sheer gratitude before), the more potential I feel for a relationship with Christ. But I've arrived at a strange thought, and it's getting in the way of things. I'm happy to accept that I'm in error, but, so that I might become a better believer, I'd like my error explained to me and my thinking corrected.

Here's the thought: as I understand it, humankind was in a state of irredeemable sin before Christ. God, in His infinite mercy, chose to absolve humankind of its sins, and sent Christ (at once God and man) to redeem humankind by suffering and dying on the cross. His death "paid for" the sin, making God's absolution available to anyone who accepted it (by following Christ). But if God wanted to absolve humankind in the first place, and the absolved sin was a sin against God, then why didn't He just... absolve them? What was stopping God from redeeming humankind?– that is, what "rule" could possibly have constrained God such that only Christ's "payment" could make redemption possible? To whom was Christ's "payment" made?

To use an analogy, imagine that Joe owes ten billion dollars to Fred, a debt that he wouldn't be able to repay if he worked every minute of every day for the rest of his life. Fred says to Joe: "I know that you can't pay me back, but not to worry! I'm going to forgive your debt." Fred then takes ten billion dollars of his own money, gives it to Bob, waits for Bob to get sick and die, and takes the money back from him. "Be grateful to Bob," says Fred to Joe. "He paid your debt for you." Fred didn't need to bring Bob into this at all. If he wanted to forgive Joe's debt, all he had to do was say "you're off the hook."

I know that I'm missing some crucial detail here, but I don't yet know what it is. If I'm to become a Christian, I'm going to need to get past this question. Thanks dearly for helping me.

What is often not widely known is that within Christianity there is a fairly wide range of views on the meaning of the Atonement. What are classically known as "Theories of Atonement". What you have described above is more-or-less considered the Penal Substitution Theory.

Penal Substitution Theory arose, primarily, among Reformed theologians in the early years of Protestantism. Prior to the Reformation the main Western view was what is known as Satisfaction Theory, first proposed by St. Anselm of Canterbury in his major work Cur Deus Homo? ("Why Did God Become Man?") in which Anselm establishes that the reason for the Incarnation had to do with man's sin by which man has incurred an unpayable honor debt to his Lord, that is, God. Consider the feudal context of the high middle ages when Anselm lived, whereby lords ran their estates and subjects of the lords owed fealty and honor to their lord. Man has offended God's great honor by sin, and thereby God is owed an immense honor debt that no human being can make satisfaction for, therefore God the Son becomes man thereby being able to bridge the gab between Deity and humanity and make perfect satisfaction on man's behalf paying the debt owed God in full.

St. Thomas Aquinas appropriated Anselm's theology but modifies it, that is a good and just God has right to satisfaction against His offender (man), but in His mercy Christ offers Himself in man's stead not to placate God's wrath (as in Penal Substitution) but in order to make satisfaction of the just demands of divine law. Or as Wikipedia describes it:

"So the function of satisfaction for Aquinas is not to placate a wrathful God or in some other way remove the constraints which compel God to damn sinners. Instead, the function of satisfaction is to restore a sinner to a state of harmony with God by repairing or restoring in the sinner what sin has damaged."

But if we go back to the ancient Church we find other views, most noticeably Recapitulation Theory found in the writings of St. Irenaeus of Lyons (late 2nd century) and among other Church Fathers, Ransom Theory.

In Recapitulation Theory the stress is on Christ who, in the language of St. Paul, is the second Adam, the New Man; as Paul writes that even as sin and death entered the world through one man's disobedience, resurrection from the dead has come to all by one man's obedience. In Recapitulation Christ recapitulates the entirety of human life, history, and experience and undoes what Adam has done, thereby offering to God in obedience the sum total of human being thereby correcting, healing, renewing, and restoring all that was lost, broken, or marred by Adam's disobedience.

Here is a relevant passage from Irenaeus:

"He has therefore, in His work of recapitulation, summed up all things, both waging war against our enemy, and crushing him who had at the beginning led us away captives in Adam, and trampled upon his head, as you can perceive in Genesis that God said to the serpent, "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall be on the watch for (observabit ) your head, and you on the watch for His heel." [Genesis 3:15] For from that time, He who should be born of a woman, [namely] from the Virgin, after the likeness of Adam, was preached as keeping watch for the head of the serpent. This is the seed of which the apostle says in the Epistle to the Galatians, "that the law of works was established until the seed should come to whom the promise was made." [Galatians 3:19] This fact is exhibited in a still clearer light in the same Epistle, where he thus speaks: "But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman." [Galatians 4:4] For indeed the enemy would not have been fairly vanquished, unless it had been a man [born] of a woman who conquered him. For it was by means of a woman that he got the advantage over man at first, setting himself up as man's opponent. And therefore does the Lord profess Himself to be the Son of man, comprising in Himself that original man out of whom the woman was fashioned (ex quo ea quæ; secundum mulierem est plasmatio facta est), in order that, as our species went down to death through a vanquished man, so we may ascend to life again through a victorious one; and as through a man death received the palm [of victory] against us, so again by a man we may receive the palm against death." - St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V.21.1

Ransom Theory is that view, held by many of the ancient Christian Fathers, whereby it was understood that through Adam's sin Adam in some sense became the captive of the devil, and the devil has since exercised authority over man since then. The Atonement, then, is God who pays the devil a ransom, offering the life of His only-begotten Son. The devil accepts this payment, but the devil has been tricked, thinking he had won a victory against God it is in fact the devil's very undoing--for the One the devil has received is very God Himself who descends to Hades to destroy Hades. Christ has invaded the enemy's camp and set it to ruin, releasing the prisoners and setting captives free. Indeed in the ancient art of the Resurrection the Icon of the Resurrection shows a victorious Christ victorious standing upon the broken doors of Hades, with the devil and death crushed beneath them. Christ takes hold of Adam and Eve by their writs and lifts them out of their sarcophogi and on either side of Him are all the saints who ever lived from the ancient biblical patriarchs and kings to the apostles, and Christians of later generations on the other.

AnastasisChora.jpg


In the last century a Lutheran theologian, Gustav Aulen, wrote a small book titled Christus Victor in which he argues that the ancient patristic views of Recapitulation and Ransom should be taken more seriously by Christian Westerners, and Aulen puts forward these as, effectively, the Christus Victor Theory. Which has gained significant momentum since its publication (and indeed a very good read).

Many have argued that it is perhaps in error to choose only one theory to the exclusion of all others, that in many ways most of these theories are correct and are therefore not mutually exclusive.

Me? I subscribe to the Christus Victory Theory (and thus find immense value in the ideas of Recapitulation and Ransom), though am not entirely opposed to the language of Satisfaction. Though I do largely reject the doctrine of Penal Substitution, I believe it is in error to believe that God's primary direction toward us is wrath or anger, and that Jesus suffers the wrath of God in order that we do not have to. On the contrary, Christ suffers death not as the object of God's wrath, but as the object of human hate, Christ willingly becomes the Victim of Victims of mankind's inhumanity and hubris. Christ receives the totality of human rejection and embraces all our weakness, all our fragility, all our death in order that He might crucify it, and in rising from the dead lift up the whole human creature as glorified before God. In Christ there is, therefore, a new humanity that is triumphed over sin and death and which is ours now by faith and ours, ultimately, in the resurrection and the eternal life in the age to come.

That is to say, could God absolve sins by choosing to absolve sins? The answer is yes. Christ's death and resurrection is much more than about pardon, it is about restoring the entire human creature, and indeed, restoring the entirety of all creation, not just man, but all things.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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bling

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I'm sorry for this question– I feel a bit uncomfortable just asking it, but I'd be lying if I claimed that it weren't on my mind. I'm an agnostic who's been thinking more and more about Christianity lately. The more I absorb the beauty of the Gospels (as cheesy as this might sound, the justly-vaunted John 3:16 has made me tear up with sheer gratitude before), the more potential I feel for a relationship with Christ. But I've arrived at a strange thought, and it's getting in the way of things. I'm happy to accept that I'm in error, but, so that I might become a better believer, I'd like my error explained to me and my thinking corrected.

Here's the thought: as I understand it, humankind was in a state of irredeemable sin before Christ. God, in His infinite mercy, chose to absolve humankind of its sins, and sent Christ (at once God and man) to redeem humankind by suffering and dying on the cross. His death "paid for" the sin, making God's absolution available to anyone who accepted it (by following Christ). But if God wanted to absolve humankind in the first place, and the absolved sin was a sin against God, then why didn't He just... absolve them? What was stopping God from redeeming humankind?– that is, what "rule" could possibly have constrained God such that only Christ's "payment" could make redemption possible? To whom was Christ's "payment" made?

To use an analogy, imagine that Joe owes ten billion dollars to Fred, a debt that he wouldn't be able to repay if he worked every minute of every day for the rest of his life. Fred says to Joe: "I know that you can't pay me back, but not to worry! I'm going to forgive your debt." Fred then takes ten billion dollars of his own money, gives it to Bob, waits for Bob to get sick and die, and takes the money back from him. "Be grateful to Bob," says Fred to Joe. "He paid your debt for you." Fred didn't need to bring Bob into this at all. If he wanted to forgive Joe's debt, all he had to do was say "you're off the hook."

I know that I'm missing some crucial detail here, but I don't yet know what it is. If I'm to become a Christian, I'm going to need to get past this question. Thanks dearly for helping me.

You have done a great job of presenting one of the huge problems with the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement.

God would not need anything to forgive people since God’s Love is great enough to forgive everyone.

You have also presented the problem with most theories of atonement where the debt is paid, yet it still must be forgiven, which is like being held in double jeopardy.

Here is our first problem:

1 Cor. 1: 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

I can explain it to you but it takes your participation.

In some ways it is easier to explain it to an agnostic or atheist that have no preconceived ideas about what went on.

Secondly you are already starting with some wrong conclusions:

  1. “humankind was in a state of irredeemable sin before Christ”, since some people were redeemed before the cross by repenting and asking for God’s forgiveness. God did forgive people prior to the cross without any reference given to Christ going to the cross.

  2. Your analogy is not what happened with the cross, but could fit some people’s description.
It is much easier for the Christian to experience God’s disciplining through the cross, than it is to “see” God’s fair, just, Loving discipline, intellectually.

Everything is done with man’s objective driving it. If you understand the objective you have the reason for everything that has and will happen.


God is Love which means God is totally unselfish. God’s Love would thus compel God to make beings He could gift with the greatest gifts possible which would include becoming like Himself (with totally unselfish Love).

The problem is totally unselfish Love is not a knee jerk reaction, cannot be instinctively placed in a being, and thus must be the result of a free will choice.

A Loving God will not force His Love on you like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun (that is not Loving nor can Godly Love be transferred this way.

Our “objective” is as easy as God could make it, just be willing to accept God’s charity (Love) and God is doing everything He can to help willing individuals to just humbly accept.

That “everything” includes allowing Christ to be tortured, humiliated and murdered, so we might accept His forgiveness.

If you “fail” to fulfill your earthly objective you certainly cannot blame God and the cross is meaningless to you and will not upset you since you do not believe it happened.

It is not God deciding to send Christ to the cross, but it is man needing Christ to go to the cross. You are aware of the false concept of “penal substitution” where Christ on the cross replaces man, but that is not really who is man’s substitution at the cross, but all those shouting crucify Him are standing in for me (they are my substitution). I could use Acts 2 to explain this but then I would have to explain Acts 2.

God does not need, but I need sin to be unbelievably huge, creating an unbelievable huge debt, so as Jesus has taught (and we can know from our own experiences) Luke 7:36-50 “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” If I am going to obtain this unbelievable huge Love it must automatically come from being forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt (sin)”, with murdering Christ being that unbelievable huge

Sin.


If it comes to that, why has God not laid out his objective clearly so everyone can see what it is? You might say he has in the Bible, but the Bible is not unambiguous, and historically has not been available to everyone.

The “mission statement” has been given as the greatest command which most people easily can pick up on: “Loving God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy.”

If you were commanded by God to “accept My Love”, would that cause you to humbly accept God’s Love as pure charity, because if you accepted His Love as the result of being commanded to do so the transaction would not be completed; it has to be humbly accepted as pure charity (since that is what it is). The Love God wants you to have cannot be “commanded’ of you since you have to extended it toward God and others totally unconditionally.

God is not asking man to “Love me with this Love that cannot be humanly developed, learned, earned or paid back.” You have to first accept God’s Love as Godly Love and then it is automatic.

This is an introduction, we can go from here.
 
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Katallina

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Two thoughts:

(1) I totally agree with Bling. And I say this knowing that one of the things I struggled with as I worked through everything and sought a relationship with Jesus was this: "I'm boring. There is no doubt that I've done things wrong. No doubt that I've sinned. But my sins appear (not to be confused with are--sin is sin is sin) small. How can I be sure that I have repented? How can I be sure that I am truly sorry?". It was from here that I started thinking about what Jesus did on the cross and why. And it was in thinking about what He did in willingly sacrificing himself that I started to see something I had missed. Regardless of what mistakes I have made or will make, no matter how great or small my sins may appear to my human mind, the fact remains that He suffered and died for me.

For anyone who has truly read the Gospels, who has seen what an amazing man Jesus was (and thereby how amazing He is), the thought that He chose to go through that even in part because of me was a very sad and harrowing realization.

(2) But it is also a miraculous, selfless gift. It is what sets Jesus (and thereby God) apart from any other deity in any other culture one can study. In most religions the focus is on "If you (human) do this, then I (deity) will do this for you."

That's not how it works with our God. Not in the slightest. We humans messed up in the Garden of Eden. We were deceived by the serpent and a great big gap got placed between us and God because of Sin. But did God go "See ya later, silly humans!" and abandon us? No.

He spent the whole Old Testament using a series of laws and traditions that would be comprehensible to the men of that time to allow communication between Him and them to continue. He sent prophets to teach people or to tell them when they were doing wrong. He -also- had those prophets begin to spread information about His master plan: sending Jesus.

He then sent Jesus to Earth, knowing He would suffer and die. Knowing that for one such as He that being stuck on Earth would be anything but pleasant. And knowing that we humans would not all understand who He was or why He was here.

So in essence, the Cross may have had other reasons for being needed (I don't know the mind of God and as we see above there are a variety of theories) but for me the most unique and identifying thing about it (since as Bling pointed out God forgives certain people before the Cross becomes relevant) is that it is the ultimate tool of separation between God and any other belief out there. On a personal, spiritual level it is (at least for me) one of the things that has made me certain that this is the truth.

I'm not sure what you are looking for, what words will fill the gap you still have as you strive toward a relationship with Jesus. I pray that you will find the answer you seek and that it will fill that missing spot for you the way these two things I've shared have filled in areas of confusion and doubt for me. Take care.
 
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Brianlear

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OP, you have hit on a point that many christians miss. They get lost in the "Debt" part of the analogy when that is just one way of looking at Jesus (and IMO, not the most accurate way). Other posters have above done a good job describing where these themes came from. Still to this day, penal substitution is espoused as an accurate interpretation of the crucifixion, mostly by unsophisticated but well meaning people trying to live a Christian life. OP, maybe to your surprise, you are well poised to understand Jesus :)
 
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