Does Christianity require the Devil to exist?

I don't think that it is something necessary but it is a truth and it is not simply a personification/allegory/metaphor for evil. Satan can be used to personify evil but the Bible does not strictly use it in this sense. The way the Bible uses Satan, makes his existence as an individual being necessary. If you changed the Bible you could still keep the core truths of Christianity while omitting Satan, but as it stands right now his existence is the truth.

AmericanChristian91 said:

Do you think Christianity being true, requires also that the Devil, the first evil creature (an angel) that predates the universe, has to exist.

Or......

Hypothetically speaking, what if there was no ultimate evil intelligence. The Devil in Christian Tradition.......never existed.......

How would that affect the truth of Christianity, and also the nature of sin?

Do you think humans first sinning HAS to require an actual Devil?

Your thoughts?

I think that if there was no actual Devil, that it would not invalidate the truth of Christianity. Now if God/Jesus did not exist....then we would have a problem, and Christianity would be false.

If the "Devil" was actually a personification/allegory/metaphor for evil (and its potential), acts against God's wishes, then I believe I would still have faith that God exists, and his son Jesus saved us from sin and the attacks of the "Devil" (so to speak).

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If we say it's necessary, we succumb to dualism, but if we say, due to free will, the potential is necessary, I see no problem in that. Historically speaking, satan doesn't fall into typical anthropomorphic syntax.

As far as Adam/Eve's first sin, I don't think Satan had to tempt originally, but that's due to a metaphysical philosophy dealing with desires.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/stumbling-block-in-forgivness.7835417/

Interesting ,
For me , this subject is on going... different terminology but same gist.

AmericanChristian91 said:

Do you think Christianity being true, requires also that the Devil, the first evil creature (an angel) that predates the universe, has to exist.

Click to expand...

Interesting that you put it that way, as it kills off the atheist use of the Problem of Evil that disdains God for having supposedly "created" the devil. Yes, I agree with that way of putting it, even though I don't recall my fellow Christians putting it that way.
As for me personally the case went in the other direction. An agnostic, but deeply interested in politics in 1960 I soon thereafter concluded that a personal Devil must exist. This left various possibilities open to me such as Voltaire's portrayal in Candide of Manichaeanism. It stems from Zoroastrianism that two gods rule the universe, an evil Ahriman (Ahura Mainya) opposed by the good God they worship. The troubling question is whether this means that belief Satan predated Creation implies that one is crypto-Zoroastrian. Indeed many scholars declare Christianity stems more from Zoroastrianism than from the Hebrew Torah. But the Bible nowhere states that God created the Devil or any angels (and the Snake appears right away in the Garden of Eden. I think the usual Christian (and Jewish) belief is that God created them, but before He created Adam, probably before the six days of Creation. Indeed, limiting Creation to such a short period of time would seem to imply that God existed long before that and that other worlds and beings long preceded humans.
Either way, Christianity does indeed go well (better, anyway) with a Devil predating the universe. The converse is not true--Satan preceding Creation allows (or goes better with) Zoroastrianism. I am myself a firm believer in the Resurrection, but if it were proved false I would simply become Zoroastrian. Horrible to say it, but for me Satan is more philosophically acceptable than Christ. Of course my experience in the Charismatic Renewal leaves me little doubt of Christ.

The Bible does not state explicitly that God created a hippo, but it does say everything that "is" He made - so it is kind of a no brainer that His effort would include all creatures including hippos, and also angels, which the Bible mentions. If one believes angels "are" then God made them, and Satan is depicted as an angel that used his free will to choose not Good. Satan essentially says to his Maker, my will not Thy Will. So in creating free will beings, God makes only the potential for evil. It is the created creature themselves that makes that potential a reality.

I do not agree with the idea that Satan or the angels existed before creation because the stories told in Genesis state that everything that "is" He made and before He started creating there was nothing of this universe (which includes then the created angels- along with Satan. Am ok with the idea that the angels were made before Adam and obviously the rebellion of angels led by Satan must have occurred prior to Adams Fall, but there is also no reason to suppose that there was not a significant passage of time from when Adam was created until Eve and then the temptation - in fact it could have been a long time - within which the angelic rebellion could have occurred. We don't really know.

From everything I have learned or had revealed through Bible and Spirit, the ENTIRE message hinges on TWO SPIRITS or conditions or states or whatever one may choose to label it.

In the beginning there was darkness. That was the STATE of existence or NON existence. Then God introduced LIGHT: a SEPARATE form of existence of maybe even the introduction of existence.
At some point in this introduction that we call 'creation', one of his own chose a path that opposed LIGHT and to remain in DARKNESS. There was a battle and LIGHT prevailed. Darkness was overcome but NOT eliminated. Why the defeat was not followed by complete elimination still remains a mystery. But we are also informed that one day there will come another battle between Darkness and Light and that EVEN THEN, Darkness will be overcome but NOT eliminated. It will take another 1000 years before the LAST battle in which Darkness will not only be overcome, but ELIMINATED. DESTROYED completely.
Now, the Devil, Lucifer, Satan, that Old Dragon, or about a million other names, as far as my understanding is concerned, it doesn't really matter what you CALL 'that which represents and introduces Darkness' into this world, it is ALL the result of ONE entity and his minions. And YES, the Bible describes this 'entity' as HE or HIM or masculine.
As far as the Bible is concerned, ALL angels ever mentioned are referred to as MASCULINE.
With all this in mind, Christianity is ALL ABOUT those that would be followers of TRUTH eliminating DARKNESS from their lives. Not PHYSICAL 'existence without light', but a SPIRITUAL awakening to the LIGHT that IS God, that IS His Son.
While this all sounds pretty simple, it is not near as simple as these few words. We are FLESH and 'spirit'. And most often the FLESH is much stronger than the 'spirit'. The flesh is MOST often DRAWN to darkness rather than light for it's OWN SAKE. And then there is the often overwhelming INFLUENCE of darkness at work as well.
So we have the flesh WANTING to revel in darkness and darkness itself offering often overwhelming influence to FOLLOW that path.
And then there is TRUTH: (the LIGHT), which is not near as appealing to the FLESH.
So we battle, not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers in HIGH PLACES. Not against EACH OTHER, but against the DARKNESS and it's minions. And more often than not, as in most battles, if given the opportunity, most would NEVER fight, but willingly join the opposing force and just ignore the war.
As in MOST would DENY the light in order to preserve itself in DARKNESS.
Now, to the original question posed in this thread. The answer to THAT question is NO. For the word 'Christianity' can have as many DIFFERENT definitions as there are people using it. For in our modern times, Christianity has turned into a word meaning merely mentioning the word "CHRIST". No bearing on TRUTH or LIGHT or anything of consequence EXCEPT what the user defines it as.
Like using the word WATER. It can mean ANY KIND of H20. And H20 is a part of everything that exists in our world. Meaningless unless specifically defined.
So NO, I have encountered many that call themselves 'Christian' that emphatically DENY the existence of an entity of ultimate evil. Deny the battle in heaven, deny the 'casting out of the Devil' and still CALL themselves 'Christians'. The main reason that disassociate myself from the 'word' Christian. Because today, it is practically meaningless.
Blessings,
MEC

Korah said:

Interesting that you put it that way, as it kills off the atheist use of the Problem of Evil that disdains God for having supposedly "created" the devil. Yes, I agree with that way of putting it, even though I don't recall my fellow Christians putting it that way.
As for me personally the case went in the other direction. An agnostic, but deeply interested in politics in 1960 I soon thereafter concluded that a personal Devil must exist. This left various possibilities open to me such as Voltaire's portrayal in Candide of Manichaeanism. It stems from Zoroastrianism that two gods rule the universe, an evil Ahriman (Ahura Mainya) opposed by the good God they worship. The troubling question is whether this means that belief Satan predated Creation implies that one is crypto-Zoroastrian. Indeed many scholars declare Christianity stems more from Zoroastrianism than from the Hebrew Torah. But the Bible nowhere states that God created the Devil or any angels (and the Snake appears right away in the Garden of Eden. I think the usual Christian (and Jewish) belief is that God created them, but before He created Adam, probably before the six days of Creation. Indeed, limiting Creation to such a short period of time would seem to imply that God existed long before that and that other worlds and beings long preceded humans.
Either way, Christianity does indeed go well (better, anyway) with a Devil predating the universe. The converse is not true--Satan preceding Creation allows (or goes better with) . I am myself a firm believer in the Resurrection, but if it were proved false I would simply become Zoroastrian. Horrible to say it, but for me Satan is more philosophically acceptable than Christ. Of course my experience in the Charismatic Renewal leaves me little doubt of Christ.

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Great philosophies you are toying with! However, dualism is a scary concept. Thinking that God and evil eternally exist is denying God's sovereignty.

Two problems exist with dualism or, like you stated Zoroastrianism. The first is the metaphysical difficulty. The metaphysical difficulty is this. The two Powers, the good and the evil, do not explain each other. Neither Ormuzd nor Ahriman can claim to be the Ultimate. More ultimate than either of them is the inexplicable fact of their being there together. Neither of them chose this tete-a-tete. Each of them, therefore, is conditioned--finds himself willy-nilly in a situation; and either that situation itself, or some unknown force which produced that situation, is the real Ultimate. Dualism has not yet reached the ground of being. You cannot accept two conditioned and mutually independent beings as the self-grounded, self-comprehending Absolute. On the level of picture-thinking this difficulty is symbolised by our inability to think of Ormuzd and Ahriman without smuggling in the idea of a common space in which they can be together and thus confessing that we are not yet dealing with the source of the universe but only with two members contained in it. Dualism is a truncated metaphysic.

The second problem or difficulty is the moral origin. The moral difficulty is that Dualism gives evil a positive, substantive, self-consistent nature, like that of good. If this were true, if Ahriman existed in his own right no less than Ormuzd, what could we mean by calling Ormuzd good except that we happened to prefer him. In what sense can the one party be said to be right and the other wrong? If evil has the same kind of reality as good, the same autonomy and completeness, our allegiance to good becomes the arbitrarily chosen loyalty of a partisan. A sound theory of value demands something different. It demands that good should be original and evil a mere perversion; that good should be the tree and evil the ivy; that good should be able to see all round evil (as when sane men understand lunacy) while evil cannot retaliate in kind; that good should be able to exist on its own while evil requires the good on which it is parasitic in order to continue its parasitic existence.

Sorry for the length.

-inspired by C.S. Lewis.

Not at all. C S Lewis was once one of my favorite authors. But in truth, he tried to create his absolute OWN understanding oftentimes completely contrary to the TRUTH. His OWN truth, you might say.

This thread reminds me of a line in the movie Pitch Black. The Hoodoo Holy Man says to Riddick, "Even if you don't believe in God, He believes in YOU".
It could be offered in the exact opposite forum: "Even if you don't believe in the Devil, he believes in YOU".
The most potent weapon the Devil ever devised was the inspiration that he doesn't even exist. Most Satanists don't even openly offer what they worship. You can go to psychic communities all over the world and if you ask, they will tell you that they worship GOD. It is only after actually witnessing their worship that one is able to recognize that SATAN is their GOD.
And atheist are not believers in NOTHING. They are believers in ANYTHING but God or the Devil. Nothing new under the sun.
And America wasn't designed to offer Freedom of the manner in which one worships God. But freedom to worship ANY god as one chooses. The majority of the 'forefathers' of America were MASONS who are Satanists, rather than followers of the God of Creation. So in order to protect themselves if exposed, they set down laws to protect them and others to worship ANY God or GODS, not THE God and Father of Jesus Christ. And it has become more and more apparent as time has passed that those that are our LEADERS are LESS and LESS followers of God and Christ and more and more followers of their OWN gods. They often talk a 'good game' but in TRUTH, almost ALL worship MAMMON more than God. The entire world has been taught to LOVE Mammon more than God or His Son.
Blessings,
MEC

Oh, and I am NOT promoting the idea that Good and Evil will or have coexisted eternally. Quite the contrary. I believe that DARKNESS has been eternal and will remain eternal in some for or shape SOMEWHERE.
But so far as humanity is concerned, the Devil rebelled and brought darkness BACK into the present world due to being jealous or envious of the announcement that Christ would be instrumental in 'CREATION'. He didn't wake up one morning and think, "you know, today I think I'll try to be God". Nope. It was when he found out that this NEWLY created SON was to be given the HONOR of Creation that Satan and a third of the angels rebelled. THAT was the EVENT that caused his rebellion. While the Bible doesn't state this in a SINGLE line, if you read and understand the Bible it is PERFECTLY CLEAR. Satan is no longer at odds with God, but the SON of God. He WANTS what God GAVE His Son. He FELT that it should have been HIS to begin with. Remember, he was the MOST accomplished of angels. And the third of the angels that rebelled didn't rebel because Satan wanted to be GOD. They joined him for the same REASON that HE rebelled: They both felt that God should have chosen Satan to be the 'creator of mankind'. Since the rebellion, they have worked with Satan hand in hand to try and STEAL as many as possible before their 'time is up'.
And NOPE, you won't hear this from ANY 'churches' that I am aware of. For MOST are nothing but offshoots of the Catholic Church. Following Catholic dogma and an understanding born of the hearts of MEN rather than inspiration of God or His Son.
<Staff Edit>

Oh, and let me add, "Trinity" is the one and ultimate CAUSE of the confusion of the Churches. TRUE understanding is IMPOSSIBLE. True revelation is IMPOSSIBLE so long as one believes that The Son is GOD. It is only when one recognizes the TRUTH in that The Son was CREATED by God and is the SON of God and now sits at the right hand of God that one is capable of coming to any accurate understanding. It is 'trinity' that has blinded not only the 'churches' but the congregation as well.

Blessings,
MEC

Is it really so hard to comprehend that All we see around us including us as individuals, are a manifestation of What was in God before the foundation of the world? Is it really so hard to believe that He found Darkness or Evil when He chose to do good, and the only way to destroy it completely is the way He chose to do it in Jesus Christ/His Word/His Son?

And dualism is only as scary (as you say) when you can't see an end to it, But God in His Great foreknowledge saw it, and shows us continually through His Spirit that it has been Finished. That is if we can See Jesus, Really see Him.

AmericanChristian91 said:

Do you think Christianity being true, requires also that the Devil, the first evil creature (an angel) that predates the universe, has to exist.

Or......

Hypothetically speaking, what if there was no ultimate evil intelligence. The Devil in Christian Tradition.......never existed.......

How would that affect the truth of Christianity, and also the nature of sin?

Do you think humans first sinning HAS to require an actual Devil?

Your thoughts?

I think that if there was no actual Devil, that it would not invalidate the truth of Christianity. Now if God/Jesus did not exist....then we would have a problem, and Christianity would be false.

If the "Devil" was actually a personification/allegory/metaphor for evil (and its potential), acts against God's wishes, then I believe I would still have faith that God exists, and his son Jesus saved us from sin and the attacks of the "Devil" (so to speak).

Click to expand...

There certainly exists a devil and he goes by many names. Satan is well documented in both the old and new testaments. No one needs Satan to sin, for a sin is a transgression of God's laws, and many people transgress without even knowing it, but we have grace through Christ, who paid in advance of all our transgressions. Now knowing this, we are to educate ourselves as to how we live and think and we are not to sin purposefully, thinking that we are covered. It is only sin in ignorance that is covered. Now, the big BUT! Christ said that we were to forgive an individual 490 times a day if need be for sin....I do not think Christ would instruct us to do this without He, Himself, also having the same ability for forgiveness.

AmericanChristian91 said:

Do you think Christianity being true, requires also that the Devil, the first evil creature (an angel) that predates the universe, has to exist.

Or......

Hypothetically speaking, what if there was no ultimate evil intelligence. The Devil in Christian Tradition.......never existed.......

How would that affect the truth of Christianity, and also the nature of sin?

Do you think humans first sinning HAS to require an actual Devil?

Your thoughts?

I think that if there was no actual Devil, that it would not invalidate the truth of Christianity. Now if God/Jesus did not exist....then we would have a problem, and Christianity would be false.

If the "Devil" was actually a personification/allegory/metaphor for evil (and its potential), acts against God's wishes, then I believe I would still have faith that God exists, and his son Jesus saved us from sin and the attacks of the "Devil" (so to speak).

Click to expand...

Satan does not predate the universe. Before he was Satan, he was Lucifer and we do not know at what time he was created, for it is not in the written record. We do know that at the top of the heap are the elohim, the begotten sons of God. None of the angels , nor archangels or any other term one wishes to refer to them as, are begotten. Angels and
Archangels are created spiritual beings. Angels have no free will, Archangels do, which Lucifer was in that class. Though Lucifer was created "full pattern", Michael is in the same classification as an archangel and His function is to hold Satan where he is until he is given orders to release him and Satan will become the dragon which has great wrath, knowing he has but a short time, when he returns to earth with his armies as anti-Christ.

Surprising that in listing yourself simply as "Christian" you nevertheless have such absolute certainty about the personel invisible to us in the supernatural world? To what do you attribute your certainty even without any denominational instruction? Personal revelation?
As for me, through with my Charismatic Renewal background I feel quite confident in the truth of Christianity, but if it would be proven true that Satan were equally or more powerful than the Christian God, I would switch to Zoroastrianism. Some posters here misunderstand that I am not a Dualist--I am quite confident that God long ago defeated Satan, even though the latter originated as a "god" in his own right, NOT created by our good God. Thus this solves the Problem of Evil. God is not the maker of Evil--it already existed and His triumph over Satan is certain just not fully consummated by the abolition of Satan's remaining power.

I think

AmericanChristian91 said:

Do you think Christianity being true, requires also that the Devil, the first evil creature (an angel) that predates the universe, has to exist.

Or......

Hypothetically speaking, what if there was no ultimate evil intelligence. The Devil in Christian Tradition.......never existed.......

How would that affect the truth of Christianity, and also the nature of sin?

Do you think humans first sinning HAS to require an actual Devil?

Your thoughts?

I think that if there was no actual Devil, that it would not invalidate the truth of Christianity. Now if God/Jesus did not exist....then we would have a problem, and Christianity would be false.

If the "Devil" was actually a personification/allegory/metaphor for evil (and its potential), acts against God's wishes, then I believe I would still have faith that God exists, and his son Jesus saved us from sin and the attacks of the "Devil" (so to speak).

Click to expand...

I think if we as Christians. believe the word of God, we know Lucifer was created as Gods most beautiful and most intelligent angel. This angel had free will and I dont think God anticipated that he would interfere with His creation. Thus God said " I am sorry that I created man. I will destroy him from the face of the earth. Both man and beast and the creeping thing and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them". Gen. 6:6,7
We know Jesus is coming to conquer Satan. Satan is not an idea or an attitude. He is a real entity that will take human form once the anti- Christ is shot in the head and is resurrected after 3 days. It is not an idea. You would be foolish to dismiss it as such.

Jaxxi said:

I think if we as Christians. believe the word of God, we know Lucifer was created as Gods most beautiful and most intelligent angel. This angel had free will and I dont think God anticipated that he would interfere with His creation. Thus God said " I am sorry that I created man. I will destroy him from the face of the earth. Both man and beast and the creeping thing and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them". Gen. 6:6,7
We know Jesus is coming to conquer Satan. Satan is not an idea or an attitude. He is a real entity that will take human form once the anti- Christ is shot in the head and is resurrected after 3 days. It is not an idea. You would be foolish to dismiss it as such.

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Wow, where to start.
Where does it say that Lucifer was an Angel?
Where does it say he had free will?

So, you don't believe that when Jesus was crucified and rose again that He conquered Satan? And that theres something more than that to be done?

I'm confused here.....so the anti-christ isn't Satan?
And where does it say he's shot in the head and resurrected after 3days?

Why did Satan fall from heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many “I will...” statements in Isaiah 14:12-15.Ezekiel 28:12-15 describes Satan as an exceedingly beautiful angel. Satan was likely the highest of all angels, the most beautiful of all of God's creations, but he was not content in his position. Instead, Satan desired to be God, to essentially “kick God off His throne” and take over the rule of the universe. Satan wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-5). How did Satan fall from heaven? Actually, a fall is not an accurate description. It would be far more accurate to say God cast Satan out of heaven (Isaiah 14:15;Ezekiel 28:16-17). Satan did not fall from heaven; rather, Satan waspushed out of heaven.
and as for the anti Christ;
Revelation 13;3. Its all there. Did i forget something?

Jaxxi said:

Why did Satan fall from heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many “I will...” statements in Isaiah 14:12-15.Ezekiel 28:12-15 describes Satan as an exceedingly beautiful angel. Satan was likely the highest of all angels, the most beautiful of all of God's creations, but he was not content in his position. Instead, Satan desired to be God, to essentially “kick God off His throne” and take over the rule of the universe. Satan wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-5). How did Satan fall from heaven? Actually, a fall is not an accurate description. It would be far more accurate to say God cast Satan out of heaven (Isaiah 14:15;Ezekiel 28:16-17). Satan did not fall from heaven; rather, Satan waspushed out of heaven.
and as for the anti Christ;
Revelation 13;3. Its all there. Did i forget something?

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Yes, how about ever question I ask you.
And the scriptures that you quoted never mentions Satan, or an angel, or being pushed out of heaven or free will.

They do however say in Isa. that it is "A Man" and is addressing "The king of Babylon." And Eze. is addressing "The Prince of Tyre". And as far as your ref. to Rev. I see no "shooting in the head" or a resurrection after 3 days either.

I don't mean to be blunt but I think you have much studying to do yet.
Those things are taught by the Churches and men, not by The Holy Spirit.

Blessings

Allow me to show you the obvious.
First, In Isaiah 14:12 in the KJV we read: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” if your Bible doesnt say that then there is half your confusion. Get yourself a new Bible. Also learn the many names for Satan so you might understand when he is referred to. Morning star, Beelzebub, Satan, son of dawn, serpent, dragon,