Reconciling Adam and Eve with Evolution

Sine Nomine

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Assuming anatomically modern humans appeared ~200,000 years ago, genetic evidence currently suggests that there was no accompanying population bottleneck (e.g. see this paper).

Although Li and Durbin's approach is likely one of the best currently available, it analysed autosomal genes and the X chromosome. 5 extant genome sequences were used. Is this a sufficiently large sample? Does it account for gene sharing between Neaderthals that are independent of the out-of-Africa population of modern humans? If I understood them correctly, including Chimpanzee data only makes a small % difference in their findings. Aren't speciation events by definition a bottleneck as mating success between species is assumed to be non-productive? Another paper suggests that caution is needed when estimating statistical evaluation of bottlenecks (see http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v110/n5/full/hdy2012120a.html).

Finally,although it is impossible to prove a negative, assuming no bottleneck ~200kya and that L0 mtDNA represents Homo sapiens, how likely is it that 1) a single L0 individual populated all Homo sapiens on the globe both living and deceased? 2) The descendants of other L0 mothers existing concurrently (e.g. A sister, female-lineage cousins with a shared maternal grandmother, etc) didn't contribute to the mtDNA pool?

The answers to 1&2 IMHO provide the genetic basis for accepting/rejecting the OP premise that mtEve=ensouled Biblical Eve. If the OP simply means to say that at some time in the past 200kya, two special indivuals eventually genetically (autosomally and perhaps Y chr. also) replaced other Homo sapiens, I would concede that it is genetically possible (but very unlikely without panmixia). This explanation has serious theological difficulties.
 
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Papias

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Finally,although it is impossible to prove a negative, assuming no bottleneck ~200kya and that L0 mtDNA represents Homo sapiens, how likely is it that 1) a single L0 individual populated all Homo sapiens on the globe both living and deceased?

Sorry for jumping in (and sfs is best qualified to answer the detailed genetic questions), but it seems there is a simple confusion between a bottleneck (where the whole population is reduced to smaller number of individuals), vs a mitochondrial line. These are very different. Everyone could be descended from a single female (L0), who lived in a population of a half million individuals at the time, with no bottleneck ever happening.

To understand this, remember that anyone - even the neighbor of the L0 woman - will eventually be the ancestor of the whole human race, as long as they have a few kids and grandkids. In the case of the neighbor of the L0 woman, she too is the ancestor of everyone, even though exactly zero people have her mt. Mt lines die out, while they still have lots of descendants from other mothers. If that doesn't make sense, then ask and we'll explain it more. Regardless of mt survival, most people in ancient populations are the ancestors of everyone alive today.

Let's use an example. Consider any normal person from a long time ago, say, Pharaoh Ramesses II. He ruled around 1260 BC. He had a wife (Nefertari), and kids. Kids will have kids, and since all their descendants will be descended from Ramesses, the number will grow (you can also see this by the fact that Thomas Jefferson already had thousands of descendants after just 200 years, or the fact that there are today many millions of people descended from the few dozen on the Mayflower).

So by 1000 BC Ramesses will have thousands of descendants, and simple math shows that by 800 BC his descendants will surpass the population of Egypt at the time. Of course, many of those will be double or triple descendants, but the upshot is that by then most people in Egypt then will be his descendant. Some of those people will live near the borders, or will have migrated over those centuries, so will be in neighboring countries (Assyria, Babylon, etc.) They too will have kids, and the same spread will happen, so by 600 BC a good chunk of the populations in those areas will be descended from them, and by 400 BC, most will be. The same goes for Asia Minor (Turkey), Greece and Italy by around 400 AD, and into Europe by 600 AD.

Continuing on, most of Southern Europe would be descended from Ramesses by 1000 AD (along with some of Northern Europe) and then most of Northern Europe by 1400 AD, and practically all by 1800 AD. Notice that you can do the same thing with most anyone from Ramesses time who had at least a few kids. You could also start in, say, Sweden and work south, or whatever, and still get a similar result.

So, being of mostly French and German Ancestry, I'm descended from Ramesses, as you likely are (unless you are not European, Middle Eastern or North African).

All that happened without there ever being a population bottleneck. Ramesses & Nefertari were never the only ones on earth, yet, withing a few millenia, everyone on earth will be descended from them. We agree that Ramesses and Nefertari, like all humans, evolved from earlier apes.

Now, imagine a population of hominids in Africa. At some point, say, a million years ago, designate two as "Adam & Eve". From a Catholic standpoint, God gives these two the first souls - they are the first "full humans", even though they are very similar in most respects to everyone else at the time, and so their children can interbreed with the others. All their descendants also receive souls, and hence are also "fully human".

Now the same thing we saw with Ramesses happens, and within a few thousands years (say, by 960,000 years ago) everyone on earth is descended from them, and is fully human, and there never was a population bottleneck.


2) The descendants of other L0 mothers existing concurrently (e.g. A sister, female-lineage cousins with a shared maternal grandmother, etc) didn't contribute to the mtDNA pool?

Whoa - careful here. An "mt pool" is very, very different from the autosomal gene pool that is usually referred to. That's because the autosomal DNA is constantly mixed through recombination, so individual genes can go anywhere. That's the opposite of mt, where someone is either fully or not at all, part of an mt line. Mt doesn't mix. Make sense?

mtEve=ensouled Biblical Eve.

I wouldn't equate mtEve with ensouled Biblical Eve. The two are unrelated ideas, and the naming of L0 "eve" I think was scientifically a very bad idea (and irresponsible to boot). Names chosen in science should help clarify, not sow confusion. Also, remember that Mt Eve and Y Adam lived thousands of years apart, with one of them mating with the distant descendants of the other.

If the OP simply means to say that at some time in the past 200kya, two special indivuals eventually genetically (autosomally and perhaps Y chr. also) replaced other Homo sapiens, .

No, no replacing is needed. Just interbreeding. The pharaoh example above shows that replacement is not only not needed, but is misleading.

This explanation has serious theological difficulties.

The idea of a population of transitional apes becoming human, with one pair designated as Adam and Eve seems fine theologically to me. Maybe discuss what difficulties there could be with this or that explanation?

in Christ-

Papias
 
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sfs

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Although Li and Durbin's approach is likely one of the best currently available, it analysed autosomal genes and the X chromosome. 5 extant genome sequences were used. Is this a sufficiently large sample?
Yes, that is a large enough sample. A single genome -- especially one of African descent, since they don't have a large recent bottleneck to obscure things -- represents about 150,000 independent gene genealogies, and 150,000 independent most recent common ancestors. That's far more informative than mtDNA and the Y chromosome, however many samples you have, since each of those represents a single tree.

Does it account for gene sharing between Neaderthals that are independent of the out-of-Africa population of modern humans?
No, but they're aware of it, and it should have very little effect since it's so small (and no effect at all on African samples).

If I understood them correctly, including Chimpanzee data only makes a small % difference in their findings.
I don't know what chimpanzee data you mean.

Aren't speciation events by definition a bottleneck as mating success between species is assumed to be non-productive?
No, they're not. An entire population could change gradually into a new species, with no bottleneck ("anagenesis"). Or (probably more realistic for human ancestors) a subdivided population could evolve locally in different ways, and sometimes exchange adaptive alleles, but without ever going through a bottleneck.

Another paper suggests that caution is needed when estimating statistical evaluation of bottlenecks (see http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v110/n5/full/hdy2012120a.html).
Absolutely, caution should be used -- that's why I stated that genetic evidence "currently suggests" that no bottleneck was involved. That's me being cautious. (Incidentally, one of the papers discussed in that Heredity survey was by me.)
 
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pshun2404

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Please see http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0126589 for details on the 400,000 year old murder victim. While they don't identify the species beyond being in Genus Homo, the choices are H. heidelbergensis (built shelters and hunted with spears) or H. erectus (made hearths, ate meat, and cared for the old and weak). The genus homo is quite old, about 5 million years. There are no apes in this genus. Based on the similarity of the anatomy, behavior, and brain size of the Homo species extant 500,000 years ago, I think it is fair to call them human.

Anatomically modern humans (Homo sapiens) existed around 200,000 years ago, not only 40,000 years ago--that information is quite old now (see http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v433/n7027/abs/nature03258.html). The oldest complete genome we have from a "modern" human is about 45,000 years old.

To make the ensoulment (circa 10,000 years ago) argument, it seems necessary to posit that early 'humans' were capable of both compassion for the old and killing one another prior to ensoulment (sin nature of the flesh?). This raises additional questions about what exactly ensoulment might mean....

I'm not sure exactly what your point is about human population size and evolution. The evolutionary pressures leading to humans would have already done their work by the time of the emergence of humans...

It means if Evolutionary Population Statisitics are true, then there would be far more humans than there are, and since the numbers do not even closely compare it is obvious EPS is at best a weak 'hypothesis' and not at all reliable.
 
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pshun2404

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You mean, a creationist posted that on Biology Online. Not exactly the same thing.


It is true that anatomically modern humans appeared ~200,000 years ago. Other than that, it's hard to find any factually correct statements in the quoted material. It's about as meaningless a calculation as I've ever seen.

The chart is not this biologists invention...just do the math...the point was that the whole idea expressed in this statistical assessment is absurd...this biologist is simply pointing that out. Sadly many are mesmerized by such statistics and then do not do the math and swallow the conclusion of the statistician whole...they believe without critical thought (which is not the same as coming up with ever newer criticisms)
 
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sfs

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The chart is not this biologists invention...just do the math...the point was that the whole idea expressed in this statistical assessment is absurd...this biologist is simply pointing that out.
So he made up some numbers, applied a completely implausible model and got absurd results. From this it is fair to conclude that doing meaningless things with numbers will not give you results that mean anything. Nothing in that calculation implies anything about the real world.

Sadly many are mesmerized by such statistics and then do not do the math and swallow the conclusion of the statistician whole...they believe without critical thought (which is not the same as coming up with ever newer criticisms)
I don't know about you, but I think pretty hard about the statistics I use.
 
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Sine Nomine

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Yes, that is a large enough sample. A single genome -- especially one of African descent, since they don't have a large recent bottleneck to obscure things -- represents about 150,000 independent gene genealogies, and 150,000 independent most recent common ancestors. That's far more informative than mtDNA and the Y chromosome, however many samples you have, since each of those represents a single tree.

You and Papias have helped me to see that there is confusion about what 'descent' means in this conversation. I agree that the autosomal material of two individuals in the past few thousand (or more) years could represent all existing DNA-thus in this sense we are all their descendants (although I'm pretty sure that Ramses II has not been sequenced). I think that the Genesis account and the OP requires lineal descent. As such, shouldn't the mtDNA and Y DNA be traceable phylogenetically to a first pair? My understanding of the current state of the mt and Y DNA data is that such a first Homo sapiens pair is unlikely. Am I mistaken?

No, they're not. An entire population could change gradually into a new species, with no bottleneck ("anagenesis"). Or (probably more realistic for human ancestors) a subdivided population could evolve locally in different ways, and sometimes exchange adaptive alleles, but without ever going through a bottleneck.

Doesn't anagenesis refer primarily to the evolution of new morphologies within a species? I would agree that a species evolves further, potentially reaching a point where it would not be able to reproduce with the first members of that line, but as those are long gone, this seems moot (is there a reason to use a different definition of species?). Some say the fossil hominin record argues against anagenesis, but without DNA evidence can we be sure? Do we have a good way of knowing whether Homo sapiens represents a new species or simply a different morphology of preceeding humans? Given that there was a significant bottleneck ~50K years ago (Out of Africa) with some estimates of population size as small as 1000, are estimates that look back further accurate, i.e. are they constrained in anyway by the more recent limited population size?
 
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Papias

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You and Papias have helped me to see that there is confusion about what 'descent' means in this conversation.

Thanks! More below.


I think that the Genesis account and the OP requires lineal descent.

"lineal descent" is simply a legal term for "descent". In other words, "descent" means that person B is the great great great ...gggggggg..... grandchild of person A. Because actual family trees are a web, not a tree, everyone today is really a literal descendant of nearly everyone alive 50,000 years ago. As the Ramesses story above tried to show, family trees are not lines, but webs, because of siblings (who usually aren't shown on family trees).

I agree that the autosomal material of two individuals in the past few thousand (or more) years could represent all existing DNA-

No, this is incorrect. We have way more different types of DNA than could be present in two individuals.

We each have only two copies of a given gene (our genes have been listed and named). So a gene that affects eye color could be, say named the "EYECLR9" gene. Different versions of a gene are called "alleles". So one allele of the EYECLR9 gene could give brown eyes, while another gives green eyes (this is an oversimplification, but bear with me). So with two copies person, a pair of people can have at most 4 different alleles for each gene (usually less, like 1 or 2). So if we all descended from a pair who were the only people alive at the time, there could be only four alleles for each gene in the entire human population. That's not what we see at all. Many genes have over 4 alleles in the whole population -heck, many have dozens or even hundreds of different versions (alleles), such as blood protein genes. Here are some examples: http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v54/n1/fig_tab/jhg20085t4.html

The upshot is that there is no way the human population was ever as low as 2, or even as low as 200. Bottlenecks that small leave an obvious mark in DNA (such as can be seen in the Cheetah), and the DNA shows that we've never experienced one that extreme in the past million years or more.



As such, shouldn't the mtDNA and Y DNA be traceable phylogenetically to a first pair?

If all humans were descended from one pair with no one else alive at the time within the past few thousand years, then every single human alive would have the same mtDNA, and every male would have the same YDNA. Obviously, that's not the case at all. (my mt DNA is type K1c2, similar to Otzi, and different from everyone I know who isn't my sibling, etc. My wife is V1, other people I know have H, H0, U, J2f1, and many others). It's easy and fun to get your DNA data at 23andme.com - I highly recommend it.

Again, it's obvious that a literal reading of Genesis doesn't match reality.

My understanding of the current state of the mt and Y DNA data is that such a first Homo sapiens pair is unlikely. Am I mistaken?

You are correct that the DNA shows that all of our breeding ancestors were never just a single pair anytime in the last million years or more.

Given that there was a significant bottleneck ~50K years ago (Out of Africa) with some estimates of population size as small as 1000

Note that such would only be a bottleneck for non-Africans, since there still were many thousands of humans in Africa at the time. That's why African DNA - even from a small section of Africa - is more diverse than the rest of the world combined. That's not a human bottleneck unless one makes the racist mistake of not counting African humans as human.

It looks like there is a lot of information to digest. Maybe start with these three videos?




In Christ Jesus-

Papias
 
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random person

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Genesis 1:26 & Genesis 2:7 both use the Hebrew word "adam" which means mankind and/or man.

This lends these passages a vague and transparent nature. An allegorical nature.

Very flexiable and pliable.
 
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ewq1938

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After a great deal of contemplation regarding the relationship of the science of evolutionary biology and population genetics with sacred scripture, and specifically the universal descent of man from Adam and Eve, I've formulated a "theory" of how these may relate. It is essentially a Covenantal Theory of Adam and Eve. I admit it is mere speculation, but I think it effectively bridges the apparent gap between evolutionary biology/genetics and sacred scripture.

1. Throughout biblical history, God deals with man by way of successive covenants.
2. God entered into covenant relationship with Adam and Eve.
3. Population genetics reveals to a high degree of probability that the population of homo sapien sapiens has not at any time dropped below aproximately two thousand individuals.

No one can really know such a thing.


4. The bible clearly affirms the historicity of two individual humans from whom originate all modern humans.

A common assumption but this is in fact not true. Adam and Eve were not created on the 6th day yet there were people created in the 6th day. It is clear on the 6th day man was hunter gatherers yet Adam was created because God planted a garden and had no one to til the ground ie: farming. We know historically that hunter gatherers were long before man started farming which fits perfectly into Gen 1 and 2.




1. All life on earth, including human biology, has evolved by the decree and creative guiding providence of God as per the theory of evolutionary creationism.
2. As described by population genetics, there was in fact an original population pool of anatomically modern homo sapien sapiens likely to exceed two thousand individuals.

Sure.

3. These "humans" though anatomically modern, were not in fact originally ensouled.

I don't believe any humans were soulless.



6. All modern humans are the genetic progency of this original covenantal pair, and are thereby heirs of this original covenant, whereby we inherit ensoulment, moral responsibility, as well as fallenness consequent the original violation of the covenant.

They couldn't be with your proposed over 2000 non Adamic, soulless humans.
 
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ewq1938

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Do all biological organisms have souls? The historic answer of Christianity to this question is a resounding "no".

If Adam had a soul then so do animals:

Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature [soul] that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


living= 02416 chay
creature = 05315 nephesh


Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature [soul] after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.


living= 02416 chay
creature = 05315 nephesh


Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


living= 02416 chay
soul= 05315 nephesh

I can also prove animals have the breath of life like Adam did if needed.
 
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ewq1938

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First of all, Adam and Eve were never immortal. They were made of dust afterall.

They died a spiritual death and separation from God.


Amen! Rare to find someone of that opinion.
 
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Job8

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It is essentially a Covenantal Theory of Adam and Eve. I admit it is mere speculation, but I think it effectively bridges the apparent gap between evolutionary biology/genetics and sacred scripture.

It is never a good idea to speculate regarding matters which ultimately have a spiritual impact. Your theory has a lot of holes but we need not go into that.

Christians are not obligated to reconcile science with Scripture, but scientists are obligated to prove that they are limiting their efforts to science and not crossing any boundaries. True science is never in conflict with Bible truth. At the same time, science cannot possible inform us about things which are beyond its scope.

Only God could tell us how this universe came into existence, how sin came into existence, and how a Savior came into existence. These are all spiritual matters, since the eternal destiny of souls is involved.
 
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Hoghead1

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I beg to disagree. Historically, one thing that really got the church in trouble, putting egg all over it's face, was the notion that science must conform to the dictates of the church. That seems what you want, but it isn't going to work. I am a systematic theologian and part of my job is to break down these barricades, these walls that exist between religion and science. Each approach has its strengths and weaknesses, and they should be an interaction between the two, so that they compliment one another. As far as cosmology goes, no, Scripture, with its flat earth, sun revolving the earth, etc .,is not n accurate witness. Scripture is not inerrant in all aspects and it need not be. There is not one Genesis account, by the way, but actually two contradictory ones sitting side by side. The biblical writers, going on the data they had were themselves unsure just how God went about creating. Why should they be? In the Bible, God is revealed in history, not nature. If God wanted geology, why there is a desert, etc., he surely would not have sent Moses
 
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ewq1938

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There is not one Genesis account, by the way, but actually two contradictory ones sitting side by side. The biblical writers, going on the data they had were themselves unsure just how God went about creating.

God is the author not the ones He inspired to write. You are correct there are two different creation accounts regarding man and animals, one where animals are created before man and one where man is created before animals but it is merely two different creations many years apart not that there is a contradiction or the writers were confused.
 
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Hoghead1

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Good point EWQ. Indeed, the two authors here (P and P, as they are referred to) may never have met or know anything about the other. The redactors or editors of these accounts actually, technically, were not being contradictory. Why? The ancient Hebrews had little interest in nature or creation. God is revealed in history, not nature. In the interests of rallying everyone together by sharing a common book, they simply butt-edited two conflicting accounts they found. They technically were contradicting themselves, simply because their view was that they really can't say how or why God created, they found two different accounts, you can choose which one you want. There is no need to go any further, as God is revealed in history, not nature, anyway.
 
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Good point EWQ. Indeed, the two authors here (P and P, as they are referred to) may never have met or know anything about the other.

I only believe in one author. People merely misunderstood that Gen 2 is somehow the same creating in Gen 1 but that is a false assumption based on misunderstanding Adam and Eve to be the first two people when the bible does not say that.

They technically were contradicting themselves, simply because their view was that they really can't say how or why God created, they found two different accounts, you can choose which one you want.

I see no contradiction.
 
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Hoghead1

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I only believe in one author. People merely misunderstood that Gen 2 is somehow the same creating in Gen 1 but that is a false assumption based on misunderstanding Adam and Eve to be the first two people when the bible does not say that.



I see no contradiction.
 
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