Do past and current LDS leaders knowingly continue a fraud?

katerinah1947 said:

Hi,
With the variations seen here, it is very difficult for me to understand anything, other than there is little consistency, within the LDS.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

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---LDS--or RLDS --or Momon? It's giving me a headache!! AAAhhh!! ----Now there you go---it's all a conspiracy so that we just give up trying to figure it out!!

Earlier in a now locked thread I asked
"I would like to know why no O.T. version containing the baptism references and the extra words in Gen 50: ( JST version) seems to exist? Why did the Jews get it so wrong, missing out so many words?

Fatboys replied

You are talking about thousands of years from the time it was written and the thousands of times it has been copied. Things get left out. Meanings are different as time goes by. We have no history of who controlled them. Several times Israel have been conquered with scanty at best history. You have oral traditions that are thrown into the mix. Much of the bible was not written down at the time of events but was carried on through oral traditions. So there could have been many chances fir corruption. You want to interpret the meanings of what could have been corrupted from the pure intent of the original. You want to rely on mans interpretation of Gods word even if it hadn't been corrupted. In ancient times man relied on prophets to interpret and give Gods will. At the time of Christ did the Jews have the correct interpretation of the scriptures? They had the scriptures. What they didn't have were living prophets. We believe that there are living breathing prophets today. That Joseph Smith was the first in modern times to restore truth just as Christ did in his day back to the earth. To restore priesthood authority back to the earth from those who held it at the time of Christ. In fact was given this authority by Christ

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Which seems to imply that things got changed over time . How doFatboys and other Mormons square this with the B.o.M which claims the O.T. was the plainess of the Gospel and could go forth from the Jews in purity. It suggests the Bible only got corrupted by the Roman Catholics and we have O.T. documents from the time before Christ.

And he said: Behold it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew. And I, Nephi, beheld it; and he said unto me: The
book that thou beholdest is a record of the Jews, which contains the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; and it also containeth many of the prophecies of the holy prophets; and it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many; nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the Gentiles.
book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.
Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.
hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.
27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.
28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and
precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.
1 Nephi 13 23-28

The copy and paste process form the LDS website seems a bit fraught here. It seems to miss out words. But you can look up the reference yourself.

mmksparbud said:

Will you please kindly stop that!! Asking if you understand our confusion is not an attack on your character!!! I realize hat having ones believes constantly questioned and attacked puts people on automatic defense--however, now your are looking for injustices that are not given nor intended.

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Stick to the topic and quit questioning what I am capable of and we won't have a problem. I don't make any kind of claims about what you can do or cannot do.

mmksparbud said:

Yes, that is pretty obvious that things don't match. That is the point. Am I to understand that the LDS stands for the original group only and the RLDS then is the reorganized, but that Mormon means both?? This is perhaps where most of my confusion lies, what one group believes as opposed to the other. So, seeing that few outsiders also know this---most of us have no idea what either church really believes as we are all pretty much bunching everything up into one Mormon group. Is the difference between these 2 factions only one of belief in the practice of polygamy (when directed by God), and one who doesn't believe in polygamy under any situation, or just what is the difference in believes? I don't understand how 2 groups claim that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, who spoke His words in his writings, can be considered led by the Holy Spirit except for certain writings that were not led by the Holy Spirit but are his own ideas--How in the world do you decide which of his writings are of God and which not?---Who decides this?? The more I find out, the more questions and confusion I find!!

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So, Christianity can have thousands of different groups with differing beliefs, but the same situation is only problematic for the LDs. Interesting.

Well--in other posts they have put forth the argument that we must have the scriptures corrupted because there are many denominations, and if it were accurate, there would be only one church---no branch sects. So then how come their scriptures are correct if they have sects differing with each other, but claiming the same book and claiming to be living prophets also?
Which is another thing, they claim the Jews had no living prophets--which is crazy, they had them.

(Act 21:10) And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.

(Act 21:8) And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
(Act 21:9) And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

And let's not forget that Christ Himself was considered a prophet.

Not to mention there is this:
(1Co 14:37) If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Did Joseph do that? No--he claims they are corrupted.

That above post also states:
"You want to interpret the meanings of what could have been corrupted from the pure intent of the original."

Yet, they do not have the Golden Plates to check their interpretation of them.

Ran77 said:

Stick to the topic and quit questioning what I am capable of and we won't have a problem. I don't make any kind of claims about what you can do or cannot do.




So, Christianity can have thousands of different groups with differing beliefs, but the same situation is only problematic for the LDs. Interesting.

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It doesn't matter how I word things, you want to play the victim. OK---But, I did ask a whole of questions, that you are not answering.

mmksparbud said:

---LDS--or RLDS --or Momon? It's giving me a headache!! AAAhhh!! ----Now there you go---it's all a conspiracy so that we just give up trying to figure it out!!

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The main body is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

During the very late 1830s and the 1840s, various offshoot groups began to appear, especially after Joseph Smith was murdered. The Reorganized Church is the largest, and Emma Smith went with them for a brief period; they are now known as the "Community of Christ." Other break-off groups from this period include the Stangites.

When the church put a halt to plural marriage in 1890, another round of break-off groups took place. The main one is the Fundamentalist group, which has been fracturing ever since.

mmksparbud said:

It doesn't matter how I word things, you want to play the victim.

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Again, I'm not the topic here. I find it odd that you would characterize my efforts to get you to discuss the topic and not the person as playing the victim.

mmksparbud said:

OK---But, I did ask a whole of questions, that you are not answering.

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Or that you don't recognize as an answer. Meh.

mmksparbud said:

Am I to understand that the LDS stands for the original group only and the RLDS then is the reorganized, but that Mormon means both??

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As far as I know, LDS stands for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. RLDS is the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. FLDS is the Fundamental Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I don't know the proper designation for any of the other breakaway sects.

mmksparbud said:

This is perhaps where most of my confusion lies, what one group believes as opposed to the other. So, seeing that few outsiders also know this---most of us have no idea what either church really believes as we are all pretty much bunching everything up into one Mormon group. Is the difference between these 2 factions only one of belief in the practice of polygamy (when directed by God), and one who doesn't believe in polygamy under any situation, or just what is the difference in believes?

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If I'm not mistaken the RLDS sect broke away over the topic of leadership, believing that the prophet of the church should be a descendant of Joseph Smith. Once broken away they used polygamy as another excuse for the split. The FLDS broke away when the LDS church stopped the practice of plural marriage. I'm sure there are many other difference between the various sects. However, all of them tend to be called Mormons. We have no control over that. We did not pick that name for our collective identification.

mmksparbud said:

I don't understand how 2 groups claim that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, who spoke His words in his writings, can be considered led by the Holy Spirit except for certain writings that were not led by the Holy Spirit but are his own ideas--How in the world do you decide which of his writings are of God and which not?

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I have already explained how I decide this. How does the Christian world decide which of the doctrines are of God and which are not? I always get a chuckle out of "Christians" asking this question when there are soooooooooo many variations of their beliefs. Why is it problematic only for the "Mormons" and not the Christians?

mmksparbud said:

---Who decides this?? The more I find out, the more questions and confusion I find!!

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Sort of the same way I feel about mainstream Christianity. You guys claim to be all one body, but there is every conceivable combination of doctrines floating around. It's like a smorgasbord where you can find the flavors you like rather than sitting down to the dinner the Lord has prepared for you.

I also find that many of the people who supposedly want to find out more about the LDS church have problems with items, like this one, that are just as problematic for their church. Which is not to say that I believe there is really a problem, just that the people want to perceive one and find things to fault. If we were to look into your church's history I imagine there would be an enormous amount of errors and flaws we could attack. What exactly would revealing the mistakes of mortal men prove about your church?

Blind post: Book of Abraham + Smith's Papyri + Egyptology = ruh-roh

mmksparbud said:

---LDS--or RLDS --or Momon? It's giving me a headache!! AAAhhh!! ----Now there you go---it's all a conspiracy so that we just give up trying to figure it out!!

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Hi,
And when one person also adds that what he uses in the LDS church, is from confirmations gotten from The Holy Spirit to him, then it seems like there are at minimum, three differing and sometimes opposing views on Mormonism.
Sorry, That although I understand what you actually mean by 'it's all a conspiracy ', it seems as though that might be missunderstood.
So, as this goes on, to answer one reason that I now have difficulties with Mormonism, is because of their disagreements among themselves, causing confusion.
And, when they get into discussions with me, I have to be ultra careful, of their feelings. That may be, because they fight so much amongst themselves, that they just assume that everyone who talks to them is by default fighting.
I rarely fight. It has no purpose in my life.
What might help, like with some Chistians, is to know from Mormons what type of Mormon they are. And since most of us don't study Mormonism any more, it would be nice if they told us in plain language. Mormon, LDS, RLDS, and now a Mystical type within one of those three classifications, is confusing to me, Always possibly.
In my case, I am a Trinitarian, by God Personally letting me know, both Trinitarian and He is Real. He also revealed the Bible to me as Real, but Biblically, then later confirmed all that supernaturally, to me.
That hopefully is not complicated, and may or may not include whether or not, Jesus is merely not seen by us, yet really is in Consecrated Bread and Consecrated Wine, which for me is my non revealed position to me on that, as that has been revealed to lots of people over the years, already, and I accept all of those Eucharistic miracles, as pretty much, Science fact.
LOVE,
...MARY., .... .

katerinah1947 said:

Hi,
And when one person also adds that what he uses in the LDS church, is from confirmations gotten from The Holy Spirit to him, then it seems like there are at minimum, three differing and sometimes opposing views on Mormonism.
Sorry, That although I understand what you actually mean by 'it's all a conspiracy ', it seems as though that might be missunderstood.
So, as this goes on, to answer one reason that I now have difficulties with Mormonism, is because of their disagreements among themselves, causing confusion.
And, when they get into discussions with me, I have to be ultra careful, of their feelings. That may be, because they fight so much amongst themselves, that they just assume that everyone who talks to them is by default fighting.
I rarely fight. It has no purpose in my life.
What might help, like with some Chistians, is to know from Mormons what type of Mormon they are. And since most of us don't study Mormonism any more, it would be nice if they told us in plain language. Mormon, LDS, RLDS, and now a Mystical type within one of those three classifications, is confusing to me, Always possibly.
In my case, I am a Trinitarian, by God Personally letting me know, both Trinitarian and He is Real. He also revealed the Bible to me as Real, but Biblically, then later confirmed all that supernaturally, to me.
That hopefully is not complicated, and may or may not include whether or not, Jesus is merely not seen by us, yet really is in Consecrated Bread and Consecrated Wine, which for me is my non revealed position to me on that, as that has been revealed to lots of people over the years, already, and I accept all of those Eucharistic miracles, as pretty much, Science fact.
LOVE,
...MARY., .... .

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Weird how you don't seem to find the thousands of Christian denominations confusing. That strikes me as an even worse situation. Care to comment about that?

Ran77 said:

Weird how you don't seem to find the thousands of Christian denominations confusing. That strikes me as an even worse situation. Care to comment about that?

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Hi,
Yes, your words do nothing to change the situation within the Mormon World. Your words do nothing to change my observations so far, of your groups.
In a response, I would hope to have you fix the problems there, and not try to say you have nothing to do, because others might be worse. And, how am I supposed to talk about that here, even if I wanted to, and I do, as that is so off topic, that I would think it is not allowed.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

katerinah1947 said:

Hi,
Yes, your words do nothing to change the situation within the Mormon World. Your words do nothing to change my observations so far, of your groups.
In a response, I would hope to have you fix the problems there, and not try to say you have nothing to do, because others might be worse. And, how am I supposed to talk about that here, even if I wanted to, and I do, as that is so off topic, that I would think it is not allowed.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

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And your words do nothing to change the situation within the Christian world (which is a thousand times worse). Your words do nothing to change my observations so far, of your groups. Perhaps you should fix the problems there before you worry about the Mormons and not say you have nothing to do (which is not something I said). It is only off-topic because you apparently want to avoid discussing it. Since there is a direct connection between what you are seeing in the LDS church and what exists in the Christian denominations it isn't off-topic. This situation exists in both "worlds" and any comments on either side are most likely just as applicable to the other. Are you familiar with the saying that when you point a finger at someone else there are three fingers on your hand pointed right back at you.

Perhaps those having a discussion with the LDS should open their eyes to the fact that most of what they direct at us has a counterpoint in their own belief system.

There is a logic problem happening here.

Splinter groups within the LDS faith = problem.

Splinter groups within the "Christian" faith = no problem.

Scientifically and mathematically this stance is indefensible. It defies logic and reason. Yet it is the stance that our critics take.

Ran77 said:

There is a logic problem happening here.

Splinter groups within the LDS faith = problem.

Splinter groups within the "Christian" faith = no problem.

Scientifically and mathematically this stance is indefensible. It defies logic and reason. Yet it is the stance that our critics take.

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All LDS groups = problem

Splinter groups within the "Christian" faith (as defined by this forum) = no problem.

Ran77 said:

There is a logic problem happening here.

Splinter groups within the LDS faith = problem.

Splinter groups within the "Christian" faith = no problem.

Scientifically and mathematically this stance is indefensible. It defies logic and reason. Yet it is the stance that our critics take.

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Hi,
Yes there is a logic problem here. We were discussing the Momon faith. And now you want to switch subjects.
First it is clear so far that the Mormons here have varying views on being a Mormon and what it means, and you are apparently a mystic, but none of you really clarified your positions before. That issue seems to be over, and just the way it is.
And now you want to discuss the Denominational issues within the Christian Community, but I do not know if you have that authority and permisssions to switch from a Mormon Conversation to a Christian Denominational discussion.
And why would you, there is a thread on that going on just recently and many people posted?
However because I feel tacity attacked by you, I will respond.
There are so many denominations because of so much dishonesty within humans, and so much lack of understanding among most males, that they get tunnel vision, thus missing the big picture, and then going off with the little bit they think is right, as if it is the whole truth about God and what God wants.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

Christus Discipulus said:

All LDS groups = problem

Splinter groups within the "Christian" faith (as defined by this forum) = no problem.

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...which should really make you stop and think about whether or not a double standard is in place.

Ironhold said:

...which should really make you stop and think about whether or not a double standard is in place.

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There is no double standard. Christians disagree on many different doctrines but they all agree on the essentials (the catholic creeds) of Christianity.

Mormons claim to be Christians and claiming to be that which you are not is the very definition of FRAUD.

Christus Discipulus said:

All LDS groups = problem

Splinter groups within the "Christian" faith (as defined by this forum) = no problem.

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Thank you for demonstrating that blind-eye syndrome I was addressing.

Ironhold said:

...which should really make you stop and think about whether or not a double standard is in place.

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What is there to think about? Same situation but different reaction based entirely on the group. That is a double standard.