Natural selection v Intelligent design

paulm50

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This is getting a bit esoteric for me. How about this one that I sometimes think about. I think the latest estimate of the age of the universe is 13.7 billion years. We still have no real evidence of intelligence in the universe. That says the uinverse may have existed all this time for all we know without even any awareness of the existence of the universe. Suddenly we come into existence and thought comes into existence. With thought we begin to understand and find there are laws of physics and all sorts of things even technologies that might never have been known. Knowledge is nonexistent without us. Why are all these things possible? Why has it been possible all this time? Of course we couldn't ask that if we didn't happen to be here. But it just seems so incredible considering all the possibilities wondering after all this time now that thought has finally come into existence what might happen next.
Some people dismiss science, others overestimate its ability.

Genesis talked about the lights in the sky, it was limited to what they could see.

First Star Chart. Do they include stars in our galaxy we can only see with a telescope?

The First Telescopes.

1923: Other galaxies exist.

Life in the Universe.

Proof of life sustaining planets in the Universe. Now here's our problem. We have to forget about all most of us perceive as life. We recently discovered life on Earth that broke all our preconceived ideas. “Alien” Life Forms Discovered.

Is there life out there that's progressed to the level we have today? Taking the life of the Earth, compressing it into a day. The last 500,000 years represents a few minute. The last 100 years, a couple of second. Given the Earth's habit of destroying the creatures living on it. Who's to say we will last long enough to find out, or they lived long enough to progress enough to say hello.

What's clear is the people writing Genesis had no idea of what the universe was. Other than lights in the sky.
 
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paulm50

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Just to add we do have certain things we can say indicates that there may be some intelligence involved in the universe. One is a finely tuned universe for life. But I can never understand how some can say there is no intelligence in existence and life. I find it almost silly in that everything we see has the hallmarks of intelligence. Its not as if everything is a dumb mistake. Even if you say evolution has intelligence involved. But dont say its not intelligence. Its a denial to not acknowledge this.
Quantify a finely tuned universe? One proven place that contains intelligent life, isn't finely tuned. Even 1 in every 1,000, or 1 in every 1,000,000 seems more like pot luck.

Intelligence doesn't always come with life. Their are lots of species with no intelligence other than to eat and reproduce.

Evolution has gone from there, to where you and I are now. In provable steps.

A dumb mistake doesn't live long in nature. Even creatures that adapt slowly to change, become extinct.
 
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stevevw

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This shows the difference between the two sides, creationist v evolutionists.

Creationist, stop around 5,000 bc. By sticking to a story that was once oral and then written down. Claiming these stories can never be wrong.

Evolutionists, never stop learning more. The steps of evolution are here to be seen. From early life in the sea, to today. The gaps are being filled all the time. We never stop learning. Which is part of our being human.

You see, you can never be wrong because Stone Age men knew it all. You're assuming evolution is a non fail process, it fails all the time. Species don't fit and die, new born don't fif, don't reproduce and the flaw gets removed. Look at how most dinosaurs died out, too big to survive in the new environment. Some smaller ones evolved into birds, not in one giant leap, in small steps by DNA adapting. Which we can now replicate in a lab. As we learn more, we grow
As far as I understand most creatures of any size would have died out with such a disaster happening. This wasn't because of evolution. That was a disaster like any disaster that can wipe out humans all of a sudden. But if there is evolution and its so rare to have these beneficial mutations then we should see millions and millions of failed creatures around and in the fossil records. In fact we should see many more than any so called positive mutations as primarily mutations are harmful and rejected.

But we seem to only see well defined creatures working quite well. Thats why evolutionists always want to make out that we are full of junk DNA and vestigial organs. Because it bolsters their theory. But as time goes by we are finding that these organs have uses and we are well made creatures. They are finding we are far more complex than thought and the so called junk DNA has function. The more complexity they find the harder it is for evolution to explain how this all came about by a chance and blind process. Instead on evolving a few simple steps they now have to account for many complex steps. Instead of a few mutations to evolve some simple features there needs to be thousands of positive mutations working together to evolve complex systems and features.

If a god exists, and I'm open to the possibility. He could only of kicked off the Big Bang and tampered with the Evolution process at best. The proven steps are too many and too obvious for the Genesis story to be right
Thats right. Not everyone believes in the young earth creationism. The bible is a book that was written thousands of years ago and we have to understand the context it was written in. How people thought back then such as not even knowing that there was a big world out there. We have to understand the language and meanings of those people. How they explained things may still have been how they seen what God represented to them and the message He was trying to tell them about creation.

But we cant then apply how we think in the 21st century to those times because things are different. When the bible says in the beginning there was light this could easily mean the big bang. But those people would not have understood it as that. When the bible says that Gods invisible power is seen in the things He made can be seen as quantum physics but those people back then would not have understood this. The bible is not about physics or science. Its a divine message from God to man. Man still is the vessel so his perspective has to be taken into consideration.

Has this god been used as an excuse to gain from others? Not long after being given the Ten Commandments, Moses starts to covet, kill, steal and probably enslave and rape the Canaanite. Because they were told by god to take their land. Irony or did the Commandments not include Gentiles? Numbers 21:32-35, just one of a string of stories the Jews are using today to steal the land from the Palestinians. GWB said he was on a mission from god to invade Iraq. That led to the crisis today

This event is one of 10,000s times where men have used the word of god to benefit themselves to the detriment of others. The apple story is just a great way of telling people "I know what you have to do, and this is what happens if you don't."
I dont want to get into a debate about the God and the old testament.But once again we have to see things in context. It may even be the way the writers explained things that makes us think that things are more brutal than they really are. Remember back then this was a way of life. There was no UN or civilized societies. The way people dealt with war was brutal and a fact of life. We cant start putting our 21st century sensibilities into it because they didn't have the benefit of thousands of years of acquired knowledge and experience.

And there's my argument with organised religion. I believe in a lot that Jesus, Paul and Peter preached. I don't believe in it all without question. Because doing that makes it a perfect tool for evil men.
Humans have a tendency to do bad things to each other and not just because of religion. Religion is an easy tool to use because people can disguise evil with good. But thats the same for many things like love and politics. Its humans who are at fault not the tools they use. In saying that its easy for people to be negative and always focus on anything bad or make something look worse than it is if they are motivated to. It comes down to a personal belief. But religion has also done a lot of good and still does. I think we need some sort of moral guidance as left on our own we tend to go off the rails or just not bother.
 
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stevevw

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Quantify a finely tuned universe? One proven place that contains intelligent life, isn't finely tuned. Even 1 in every 1,000, or 1 in every 1,000,000 seems more like pot luck
A finely tuned unic=verse is said to be a number of constants that are finely tuned to make our universe. Then there are other finely tuned constants that are just right to make life. If any of these are a fraction out then we would end up with a completely different universe or life or no life at all. This is why some scientists push the multiverse theory. Because its hard to address the finely tuned universe they say our universe is just one of millions of parallel universes and ours just happens to be a good one for life.

This makes ours not so special and takes away the importance of it being perfect for life. So we may have some other universes where there could be another you and me living a slightly different existence. or there could be a universe where there are strange creatures because the laws of physics are different. Then there could be universes where it is very hostile because there are no laws of physics or they are so different that they produce chaos or where stars were never born or some other result happened that is totally different to ours. I find all this funny as those same people will say that entertaining the idea of a God is ridiculous yet they are willing to entertain ideas of strange creatures and worlds.

Examples of such “fine-tuning” abound. Tweak the charge on an electron, for instance, or change the strength of the gravitational force or the strong nuclear force just a smidgen, and the universe would look very different, and likely be lifeless. The challenge for physicists is explaining why such physical parameters are what they are.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2012/03/is-the-universe-fine-tuned-for-life/
Intelligence doesn't always come with life. Their are lots of species with no intelligence other than to eat and reproduce.
Thats what evolutionists have always said. Like the creatures in the Cambrian period were simple with simple features. But we find very complex features. Just as complex as today's ones. All life is complex and has a great amount of intelligence if you look at it from what humans can produce. The genetics of any organism makes our computer software look like play school stuff.

Evolution has gone from there, to where you and I are now. In provable steps
Not really. They like to think this is the case. But when you begin to look under the surface and the details of how those steps happen it breaks down.Lab tests have never proven evolution. Only micro evolution which has limits.

A dumb mistake doesn't live long in nature. Even creatures that adapt slowly to change, become extinct.
Thats right so there should be many more dumb mistakes visible in the fossil records and life because there are many more than there are rare positive good ones. Remember mutations are errors. They basically cause harm and are not good for us so a so called beneficial one is very rare. But considering that some changes would need thousands of beneficial mutations to evolve a feature such as an eye then we should see the landscape littered with the many more negative ones that also come or even more so the neutral ones hanging around somewhere.

It seems such a hassle having to accommodate all that extra harmful stuff just to get a tiny rare benefit if that. In fact there is evidence that even the so called beneficial mutations come with costs as well. Its like taking one step forward and 100 back to make things better.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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In saying that I find it hard to believe that a meaningless , dark and cold universe can produce a mind that has so much meaning and intelligence.
Perhaps that's due to a lack of imagination.
Surely the thing that produces such a mind has to be as great if not greater than that mind.
So the thing that produces that mind must be as great or greater than the mind it produces, and the mind that produces that mind must be greater still, and the mind that produces that mind must be even greater, and on and on it goes...
 
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Archaeopteryx

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But we seem to only see well defined creatures working quite well. Thats why evolutionists always want to make out that we are full of junk DNA and vestigial organs.
Psst... evolutionists don't use the word "evolutionist." The correct word is "scientist."
Because it bolsters their theory. But as time goes by we are finding that these organs have uses and we are well made creatures. They are finding we are far more complex than thought and the so called junk DNA has function. The more complexity they find the harder it is for evolution to explain how this all came about by a chance and blind process. Instead on evolving a few simple steps they now have to account for many complex steps. Instead of a few mutations to evolve some simple features there needs to be thousands of positive mutations working together to evolve complex systems and features.
No, evolutionary biology is not in crisis. Stop peddling this nonsense please.
 
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stevevw

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Perhaps that's due to a lack of imagination.
You mean like the imagination of some who come up with the far fetched ideas about the universe like worm holes, parallel worlds and hologram dimensions. Or like the nothing that one prominent scientist imagined that is really something but that something is a different kind of nothing that really isn't something.
So the thing that produces that mind must be as great or greater than the mind it produces, and the mind that produces that mind must be greater still, and the mind that produces that mind must be even greater, and on and on it goes...
No its stops at God. God states that He is the beginning and the end, the alpha and the omega. In Him all things are made. He has always been and always will be. There has to be something that has this makeup because otherwise it will keep going back to something. So who better than something that has the ability to make the universe and life in them but are even greater than that. That greatness is something beyond our understanding but from it comes everything. Thats why God is said to be omnipresent and omnipotent. But I guess thats what we call it. It may be something even greater than this that we cant begin to comprehend.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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You mean like the imagination of some who come up with the far fetched ideas about the universe like worm holes, parallel worlds and hologram dimensions. Or like the nothing that one prominent scientist imagined that is really something but that something is a different kind of nothing that really isn't something.
I don't use "imagination" in a pejorative sense. Imagination is essential to science.
No its stops at God.
Why? Isn't God a mind and therefore subject to your rule that minds require greater minds to design them? Do you intend on making your special pleading this obvious?
 
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pshun2404

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A finely tuned unic=verse is said to be a number of constants that are finely tuned to make our universe. Then there are other finely tuned constants that are just right to make life. If any of these are a fraction out then we would end up with a completely different universe or life or no life at all. This is why some scientists push the multiverse theory. Because its hard to address the finely tuned universe they say our universe is just one of millions of parallel universes and ours just happens to be a good one for life.

This makes ours not so special and takes away the importance of it being perfect for life. So we may have some other universes where there could be another you and me living a slightly different existence. or there could be a universe where there are strange creatures because the laws of physics are different. Then there could be universes where it is very hostile because there are no laws of physics or they are so different that they produce chaos or where stars were never born or some other result happened that is totally different to ours. I find all this funny as those same people will say that entertaining the idea of a God is ridiculous yet they are willing to entertain ideas of strange creatures and worlds.

Examples of such “fine-tuning” abound. Tweak the charge on an electron, for instance, or change the strength of the gravitational force or the strong nuclear force just a smidgen, and the universe would look very different, and likely be lifeless. The challenge for physicists is explaining why such physical parameters are what they are.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2012/03/is-the-universe-fine-tuned-for-life/
Thats what evolutionists have always said. Like the creatures in the Cambrian period were simple with simple features. But we find very complex features. Just as complex as today's ones. All life is complex and has a great amount of intelligence if you look at it from what humans can produce. The genetics of any organism makes our computer software look like play school stuff.

Not really. They like to think this is the case. But when you begin to look under the surface and the details of how those steps happen it breaks down.Lab tests have never proven evolution. Only micro evolution which has limits.

Thats right so there should be many more dumb mistakes visible in the fossil records and life because there are many more than there are rare positive good ones. Remember mutations are errors. They basically cause harm and are not good for us so a so called beneficial one is very rare. But considering that some changes would need thousands of beneficial mutations to evolve a feature such as an eye then we should see the landscape littered with the many more negative ones that also come or even more so the neutral ones hanging around somewhere.

It seems such a hassle having to accommodate all that extra harmful stuff just to get a tiny rare benefit if that. In fact there is evidence that even the so called beneficial mutations come with costs as well. Its like taking one step forward and 100 back to make things better.

Great post Steve...
 
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stevevw

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I don't use "imagination" in a pejorative sense. Imagination is essential to science.

Why? Isn't God a mind and therefore subject to your rule that minds require greater minds to design them? Do you intend on making your special pleading this obvious?
I dont know what God really is. But I wouldn't restrict Him to just a mind. The bible gives us some indications. You could say that our minds may be a small part of what God is. I see it as anything we know of in existence such as the universe, our minds, our bodies, our thoughts and feelings, the earth and nature are all part of God. So I dont think you can limit God to any particular thing.
Colossians 1:16 and 17
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
 
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Givemeareason

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Some people dismiss science, others overestimate its ability.

Genesis talked about the lights in the sky, it was limited to what they could see.

First Star Chart. Do they include stars in our galaxy we can only see with a telescope?

The First Telescopes.

1923: Other galaxies exist.

Life in the Universe.

Proof of life sustaining planets in the Universe. Now here's our problem. We have to forget about all most of us perceive as life. We recently discovered life on Earth that broke all our preconceived ideas. “Alien” Life Forms Discovered.

Is there life out there that's progressed to the level we have today? Taking the life of the Earth, compressing it into a day. The last 500,000 years represents a few minute. The last 100 years, a couple of second. Given the Earth's habit of destroying the creatures living on it. Who's to say we will last long enough to find out, or they lived long enough to progress enough to say hello.

What's clear is the people writing Genesis had no idea of what the universe was. Other than lights in the sky.

Understood and agreed. And I don't consider ID or YEC to be anything more than arguments to support speculation or preformed conclusions. I am trying to look at the universe objectively and noticing that it seems pretty amazing that this happening at all. The universe could have existed just fine without us or any awareness that it even exists. My surprise is that our thoughts and understandings have come into existence.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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... Lab tests have never proven evolution. Only micro evolution which has limits.
If by evolution you mean speciation (i.e. reproductive isolation), new species have been bred in the lab, and speciation has been observed in the wild.

Thats right so there should be many more dumb mistakes visible in the fossil records and life because there are many more than there are rare positive good ones.
You should remember that fossilization is extremely rare, so we only see random individuals of a small selection of species. Individual mutations are extremely unlikely to be distinguishable in the fossil record because representative samples of the relevant population are not available for comparison, and the vast majority of mutations would not be distinguishable in fossils even if such samples were available.

Obvious physical distortions are usually caused by injury, disease, or developmental abnormalities. Mutations that are 'dumb mistakes' will generally mean that the individual will fail to reproduce successfully, or will produce less viable offspring, so it's unlikely that more than a handful would be available for the rare chance of fossilization for a very short time, in contrast with the bulk of the population to which they belong, and their faulty gene(s) will not spread through the population. Mutations occur in individuals, evolution occurs in populations.

Remember mutations are errors. They basically cause harm and are not good for us so a so called beneficial one is very rare.
Not so; the vast majority of mutations are neutral - they do not affect the individual's environmental fitness. As mentioned above, detrimental mutated genes will generally not spread through the population - unless they are recessive and only detrimental when both alleles are the mutated form (e.g. cystic fibrosis, Tay Sachs), and/or the single allele mutation comes with a beneficial advantage (e.g. Sickle Cell Trait), but these are relatively rare - and they would generally not be distinguishable in fossils (although Sickle Cell Trait might be).

... we should see the landscape littered with the many more negative ones that also come or even more so the neutral ones hanging around somewhere.
Negative mutations mean less fit individuals whose genetic lines are brief, if they survive to reproduce at all. They will not be represented in the population (except as above), and so are very unlikely to appear in the fossil record.

It seems such a hassle having to accommodate all that extra harmful stuff just to get a tiny rare benefit if that. In fact there is evidence that even the so called beneficial mutations come with costs as well. Its like taking one step forward and 100 back to make things better.
Whether you think it's a hassle or not doesn't matter. Individuals of most species produce a large number of offspring with minor variations (including mutations). Only a few of these offspring survive to reproduce. Many die by chance that is not related to their potential fitness, but in general, over the generations, the ones that survive do so because their particular variations make them more likely to survive. The ones that survive to reproduce supply the genes of the next generation, and so the fitter genes will spread through the population as more of the surviving individuals carry them.

Fatal mutations don't get passed on, and most beneficial mutations provide only a slight advantage; it's extremely rare that a single mutation provides a large advantage because the vast majority of traits are the result of the complex interactions of many genes. Nevertheless, change can occur rapidly in relatively small, isolated populations under extreme pressure. One example seen repeatedly in the fossil record is when large creatures are isolated on an island (e.g. a peninsula becomes cut off). In this situation, limited resources and strong competition tends to result in a rapid decrease in size of the individuals, resulting in a pygmy version or species. This is known as insular dwarfism. The inverse effect (insular gigantism) can occur for small creatures, where resources are plentiful and predators absent, e.g. the Dodo.
 
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Cearbhall

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If a god exists, and I'm open to the possibility.
He could only of kicked off the Big Bang and tampered with the Evolution process at best.
I agree. Deism is the farthest I'll ever be willing to go.
The proven steps are too many and too obvious for the Genesis story to be right.
Definitely. My Catholic school taught me that Genesis is not literally or historically true, which seems to surprise some people on here.
 
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Moral Orel

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You mean like the imagination of some who come up with the far fetched ideas about the universe like worm holes, parallel worlds and hologram dimensions. Or like the nothing that one prominent scientist imagined that is really something but that something is a different kind of nothing that really isn't something.
You understand that gravity is just the bending of spacetime right? So if we bent spacetime enough to the point that two distant points in space touch each other, then that makes a wormhole. We have particles that on the quantum level seem to pop in and out of existence, so it is believed that they are jumping through space in ways that we can't perceive. Just because we don't have the technology right now to do something, doesn't mean that something isn't proven to be mathematically possible.

Parallel worlds is the sci-fi version of real science. Quantum mechanics shows that universes can pop up now, and eternal inflation theory predicts that this happens. It doesn't mean the whole "anything that can happen does happen" idea behind parallel universes, and we can't travel between them ever, but "other universes" are again mathematically proven to be viable.

And the "nothing that's really something" is the area that spacetime doesn't exist in. If the universe is finite, then what is past the edge of the universe? Spacetime is a thing, even if empty space seems like it's nothing. Relativity isn't in question. So what is beyond the border of finite spacetime? That's what the whole "nothing-something" is. God exists outside the universe right? So what do you call the area that he existed in before he made the universe?
 
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Givemeareason

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I agree. Deism is the farthest I'll ever be willing to go.

Definitely. My Catholic school taught me that Genesis is not literally or historically true, which seems to surprise some people on here.

That should not be a surprise. I don't think the Catholic Church has endorsed Creationism in a long time.
 
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Givemeareason

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I dont know what God really is. But I wouldn't restrict Him to just a mind. The bible gives us some indications. You could say that our minds may be a small part of what God is. I see it as anything we know of in existence such as the universe, our minds, our bodies, our thoughts and feelings, the earth and nature are all part of God. So I dont think you can limit God to any particular thing.
Colossians 1:16 and 17
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Some time ago there was this argument about ancient astronauts. The argument was that ancient humans could not possibly have created certain things and therefore it must have been done by ancient astronauts. ID is the same argument with different suppositions. Wrong then. Wrong now. When one seeks specific conclusions the level of certainty of the conclusion goes way down.
 
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paulm50

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As far as I understand most creatures of any size would have died out with such a disaster happening. This wasn't because of evolution. That was a disaster like any disaster that can wipe out humans all of a sudden. But if there is evolution and its so rare to have these beneficial mutations then we should see millions and millions of failed creatures around and in the fossil records. In fact we should see many more than any so called positive mutations as primarily mutations are harmful and rejected.
The fossil records are mostly, by a huge margin, failed species. They very rarely find one that didn't fail or evolve.
But we seem to only see well defined creatures working quite well. Thats why evolutionists always want to make out that we are full of junk DNA and vestigial organs. Because it bolsters their theory. But as time goes by we are finding that these organs have uses and we are well made creatures. They are finding we are far more complex than thought and the so called junk DNA has function. The more complexity they find the harder it is for evolution to explain how this all came about by a chance and blind process. Instead on evolving a few simple steps they now have to account for many complex steps. Instead of a few mutations to evolve some simple features there needs to be thousands of positive mutations working together to evolve complex systems and features.
Undefined creatures, die very fast. Without the possibility of mating. Look at the natural world to see how it works. Yes gills evolved into ears, the appendix is useful to those in primitive environment, not found a use for the tailbone, can you point to one?

No it didn't come out by chance and evolutionists don't believe that hand have proven nothing is by chance. The steps were many and over 100,000s to millions of years. Compare the size of our bodies now to those 500,000 years ago. A non positive mutation doesn't live long enough to matter. Ask a midwife.
Thats right. Not everyone believes in the young earth creationism. The bible is a book that was written thousands of years ago and we have to understand the context it was written in. How people thought back then such as not even knowing that there was a big world out there. We have to understand the language and meanings of those people. How they explained things may still have been how they seen what God represented to them and the message He was trying to tell them about creation.
A god could of told them a closer version f the truth and they would of believed. Did he only tell them what they could see and miss out the millions of years before Man arrived?
But we cant then apply how we think in the 21st century to those times because things are different. When the bible says in the beginning there was light this could easily mean the big bang. But those people would not have understood it as that. When the bible says that Gods invisible power is seen in the things He made can be seen as quantum physics but those people back then would not have understood this. The bible is not about physics or science. Its a divine message from God to man. Man still is the vessel so his perspective has to be taken into consideration.
Go back and read what it says about a light. What it could of been, isn't an explanation.
I dont want to get into a debate about the God and the old testament.But once again we have to see things in context. It may even be the way the writers explained things that makes us think that things are more brutal than they really are. Remember back then this was a way of life. There was no UN or civilized societies. The way people dealt with war was brutal and a fact of life. We cant start putting our 21st century sensibilities into it because they didn't have the benefit of thousands of years of acquired knowledge and experience.
Used to control the people. The Christian bible isn't unique in the aim. Look at Scientology. Now there's the most crackpot organisation ever. And yet, some people believe in it. The proliferation of religions and cult religions proves man has a need to have questions answered, believe in something and follow. They can't all be right. So it needs more than what a book could mean, to prove it does.
Humans have a tendency to do bad things to each other and not just because of religion. Religion is an easy tool to use because people can disguise evil with good. But thats the same for many things like love and politics. Its humans who are at fault not the tools they use. In saying that its easy for people to be negative and always focus on anything bad or make something look worse than it is if they are motivated to. It comes down to a personal belief. But religion has also done a lot of good and still does. I think we need some sort of moral guidance as left on our own we tend to go off the rails or just not bother.
Agreed 100%. So why are the original writers of all religions considered exempt of such sins?

The writers were human. All I say is, if its not proven by numerous scientists, it has to be questioned.

The problem is mammals are built to question and find out. From the lowest form to us. It's how we advance, learn and survive. For me I'm always looking for more answers, I'm never satisfied and want to grow. For others it's enough that someone else knows and will give us the answer, except we should never question what they say. Because it was written so.

Be that virgins in Heaven, a better life next time around, pay some money to get into Heaven, or go kill those people and take their land, rip out the heart and give it with the victim's blood to the sun god. All have been done by the power of a book, well not the last one. They didn't have books, managed to find a religion and impose it though
 
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paulm50

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"Surely the thing that produces such a mind has to be as great if not greater than that mind."

No one is even suggesting the minds that create, are greater than those that believe.
Understood and agreed. And I don't consider ID or YEC to be anything more than arguments to support speculation or preformed conclusions. I am trying to look at the universe objectively and noticing that it seems pretty amazing that this happening at all. The universe could have existed just fine without us or any awareness that it even exists. My surprise is that our thoughts and understandings have come into existence.
Most of the Universe exists without any signs of life. Life is out there though, we can now see planets that will have life on them. Maybe nothing more than worms and snails, or maybe life has been and gone. We are yet to learn.

For many back in the 1800s and before, that would of been scary. The further we go, the more scared the people become.

Genesis says.

The Sixth Day: Creatures on Land
25 God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 26Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.…28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."…29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to everything that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.…

It's promising Man control over the Earth. Well that never happened did it. And all it took to go wrong was us not to do what god tells us, or the priests tell us god told them.

That in the hands of people who want control, is gold dust. And men can be evil
 
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Cearbhall

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Some time ago there was this argument about ancient astronauts. The argument was that ancient humans could not possibly have created certain things and therefore it must have been done by ancient astronauts. ID is the same argument with different suppositions. Wrong then. Wrong now.
I agree that it's incorrect, but personally, my only concern is that people aren't promoting conclusions which directly contradict science and history. Science doesn't seek to make theological claims about whether evolution fulfills some deity's plans, so I have no problem with ID.
 
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