The USA has grounded its entire fleet of F-35 fighter jets

RDKirk

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Even though I just posted the following material in another thread under "military" I think that it also has a lot of relevance here. Sadly, Australia was one of those gullible countries who was hoodwinked into buying this piece of scrapmetal.

A few months back I attended the International Avalon Air Show in Melbourne Australia where I had a rather interesting discussion with the Lockheed Martin representative (with photos) regarding the F-35 that Australia has unwisely decided to buy.

I raised the point that from what I am reading that all these sources are saying that the Russian Sukhoi T-50 will outclass the F-35 in virtually every category. Now I have no qualms with Russia having these aircraft but I am certainly concerned that Russia will be supplying Indonesia with about 50 T-50's.

As hard as I tried, I could not get the Lockheed Martin rep to say that the F-35 would outclass the Sukhoi T-50. I said that my understanding is that if Australia were to send our 50 F-35's against 50 Indonesian Sukhoi T-50's that it would be unlikely that any of our planes would make it back home where he had no answer.

His final remark was "Well, we've got Australia's back with our F-22's so if you get in trouble we'll be there". My reply was, that's great, so when we need you in a hurry you will somehow send over your F-22's to help us and don't forget it's a long way from the US to Australia.

Essentially, once the US replaces their current stock of fighters with the already out of date F-35 that the US will not have an effective air cover against those countries that will be equipped with the Russian T-50.

Not true. Air supremacy is a matter of far more than fighter spec versus fighter spec.

Actual pilot effectiveness counts tremendously, and few pilots in the world get the training of American pilots (although Indians come pretty close, and are better than Russians or Chinese). Aussies are absolutely crazy-good...they all think they're Crocodile Dundee, and can back it up.

Then there are the other factors, such as AWACS air control, effective SEAD, effective maintenance that can keep more planes in the air and turn them faster, better air-to-ground capability that keeps enemy aircraft from launching in the first place, better manufacturing that keeps planes in the air longer and operating better, better electronics for BVR attacks (when you can kill him before he even knows you're out there...other plane characteristics are irrelevant), more effective defensive systems, et cetera.
 
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Biblicist

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Not true. Air supremacy is a matter of far more than fighter spec versus fighter spec.

Actual pilot effectiveness counts tremendously, and few pilots in the world get the training of American pilots (although Indians come pretty close, and are better than Russians or Chinese). Aussies are absolutely crazy-good...they all think they're Crocodile Dundee, and can back it up.

Then there are the other factors, such as AWACS air control, effective SEAD, effective maintenance that can keep more planes in the air and turn them faster, better air-to-ground capability that keeps enemy aircraft from launching in the first place, better manufacturing that keeps planes in the air longer and operating better, better electronics for BVR attacks (when you can kill him before he even knows you're out there...other plane characteristics are irrelevant), more effective defensive systems, et cetera.
I will agree with some of your points which I had planned to add into my original post. The problem with training is that even in the earlier period of the Vietnam war the less competent North Vietnames pilots were downing US fighters in massive numbers.
Would it be possible to train our pilots to the degree required when the F-35 is already so outdated and inefficient where it is no match for the Russian Sukhoi - this presumes that the F-35 actually makes it to full production.

AWAC's could certainly play a critical role where we seem to have between 4-8 such aircraft at the moment where Indonesia probably has none. My concern is that even though we should have a few cards up our sleeves, as the F-35 is such a poor fighter in virtually all categories, will our AWAC's and our training be enough? Above all else, I was rather shocked when the Lockheed Martin Rep refused to say that an F-35 would be an effective weapon against a Sukhoi T-50, not good news at all.

Hopefully when a few more machines enter into service in the US that that this will be enough to force the US military to cancel the project where we might have a chance to source a better aircraft from Europe; its too bad that Australia would never buy the Russian plane!

With regard to the axiom "who gets spotted first gets killed", this is also a problem as the reviews seem to indicate that the Sukhoi should be able to spot an F-35 first and as the Sukhoi carries missiles that can out range an F-35 then it seems (providing the reviews are correct) that our pilots will be downed before they even get in strike range.
 
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Biblicist

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The reviews aren't correct. And don't count Russian eggs before their hatched--their manufacturing has not improved in quality since the Soviet days.
Okay . . . so far I've only come across one article out of the dozens that I've read that supports the F-35, where even our own people are voicing their concerns. If you could maybe a supply a link to an article that promotes the F-35 against the Sukhoi where it compares feature to feature then this would be appreciated. As I could not get the Lockheed Martin representative to say that the F-35 will outclass the Sukhoi then it seems my concerns are more than just a little justified. I also have a photo showing his name tag.

My concern is that the US industry and its technology may no longer be capable of producing an effective fighter; even the new Chinese fighters seem to outclass the F-35.

Link

I think that we would be doing ourselves a great diservice by equating the Russian Federation of today with the Soviets Union of 25 years ago. The new Russian Federation seems to be a creature that has learnt from its past. For that matter, even China has raised its game but the Europeans might be behind the rest.
 
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Biblicist

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The USA has grounded its entire fleet of F-35 fighter jets after a crack in the engine was found.
I just came across an interesting article (which might require verification) regarding a supposed recent dogfight between the JSA F-35 and a much older F-16, which is the plane that it is supposed to replace. Apparently the F-16 outclassed the F-35 and if a much older 4th Generation plane can (supposedly) easily destroy an F-35, what hope does it have against a 4+ Gen or more importantly with the more recent 5th Generation aircraft such as the Russian Sukhoi PAK FA?

Rebuttals are more than welcome!


"The defeated flier’s five-page report is a damning litany of aerodynamic complaints targeting the cumbersome JSF".
(Link)

“Insufficient pitch rate.” “Energy deficit to the bandit would increase over time.” “The flying qualities in the blended region (20–26 degrees AoA) were not intuitive or favorable.”

The F-35 jockey tried to target the F-16 with the stealth jet’s 25-millimeter cannon, but the smaller F-16 easily dodged. “Instead of catching the bandit off-guard by rapidly pull aft to achieve lead, the nose rate was slow, allowing him to easily time his jink prior to a gun solution,” the JSF pilot complained.

And when the pilot of the F-16 turned the tables on the F-35, maneuvering to put the stealth plane in his own gunsight, the JSF jockey found he couldn’t maneuver out of the way, owing to a “lack of nose rate.”

The F-35 pilot came right out and said it — if you’re flying a JSF, there’s no point in trying to get into a sustained, close turning battle with another fighter. “There were not compelling reasons to fight in this region.” God help you if the enemy surprises you and you have no choice but to turn.

The JSF tester found just one way to win a short-range air-to-air engagement — by performing a very specific maneuver. “Once established at high AoA, a prolonged full rudder input generated a fast enough yaw rate to create excessive heading crossing angles with opportunities to point for missile shots.”

But there’s a problem — this sliding maneuver bleeds energy fast. “The technique required a commitment to lose energy and was a temporary opportunity prior to needing to regain energy … and ultimately end up defensive again.” In other words, having tried the trick once, an F-35 pilot is out of options and needs to get away quick".
 
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RDKirk

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When I was assigned to the COPE THUNDER squadron, which hosted DACT exercises in the Philippines in the 80s, it wasn't unusual for F-16 aircraft to win dogfights with F-15...as long as the scenarios were tweaked to favor them, which was clearly the case here by the mere mention of a gun scenario. In real air-to-air jet combat, guns are a joke.
 
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Armoured

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The USA has grounded its entire fleet of F-35 fighter jets after a crack in the engine was found.
And when nothing bad happens despite them being offline, hopefully they'll be shown up as the white elephant they are.
 
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Biblicist

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When I was assigned to the COPE THUNDER squadron, which hosted DACT exercises in the Philippines in the 80s, it wasn't unusual for F-16 aircraft to win dogfights with F-15...as long as the scenarios were tweaked to favor them, which was clearly the case here by the mere mention of a gun scenario. In real air-to-air jet combat, guns are a joke.
Hey, I'm always happy to see remarks that might help me to believe that our multi-billion dollar investment might have some value.

I can see a possible problem with the idea that guns might be a thing of the past which I recall was either the intentional or unintential plan of the US Air Force prior to Vietnam in the mid 60's. It seemed that the US pilots were not effectively trained in dogfighting which saw many North Vietnamese pilots shooting down more US aircraft than they were losing in the air; this policy was quickly rectified.

Of course the big question is, once both sides fire their missiles and where each side could have a number of aircraft surviving, as the Sukhoi can outchase and out manouver the F-35 it seems that their guns might just be the deciding factor.

As the Sukhoi apparently carries missiles that will outdistance the F-35's missiles and that the Sukhoi can travel faster with a longer combat range, it seems that the F-35 is not a match here either.

It's too bad that Australia is not buying the Sukhoi PAK FA as we could easily move a squadron north where we could maybe help the US Air Force by acting as buffer zone between the their fighters and the new Chinese Fifth Gen fighters in the newly disputed South China Sea. As Indonesia is apparently buying 50 Sukhoi's, maybe they could do the job for both the US and Australia -- how the world is changing!
 
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eclipsenow

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I just wanted to bump this thread up given some recent articles about the sheer cost of the F-35's helmets, at $400,000 a piece. What are people thinking about the F-35 these days? Like, dislike?

One criticism of the F35 I heard is it's too fat to be a fighter, and too thin to be a proper bomber. What is it? It's trying to be everything!?

"The F-35’s detractors point to the fact that the stealthy single-engine jet didn’t fair very well against a relatively elderly two-seat Block 40 F-16D that was carrying two external fuel 370-gallon fuel tanks. The F-35A, which is the most agile of the three versions of the jet, was decisively shown to be less nimble than the older aircraft. But for most people who have been tracking this program, that’s not particularly unexpected....
...The fact of the matter is that the F-35 was never intended to be an air superiority fighter—hence it’s called the Joint Strike Fighter. Back about 10 years ago, the U.S. Air Force narrative was that the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor was absolutely vital to national security because the F-35 couldn’t handle enemy fighters or take on the most advanced integrated air defense systems like the Russian S-400. The service changed its story once the Raptor program was terminated."​

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...russia-or-chinas-best-fighters-who-wins-13802

It costs so much, that you may as well just build 1 purpose built stealth fighter and 1 purpose built stealth bomber for the price of 1 F-35. But maybe I'm being too conservative? At least task-dedicated planes know what they're good at!

If you were going to, what combination would you replace the F-35 with, and what would it cost? Would you replace it with a fighter and bomber, and what would that combination cost?

It does not mean abandoning any F-35's, but might mean buying fewer F-35's and far more, far cheaper alternatives for lower risk missions. EG: Why fly an F35 over ISIS? Why not a bunch of anti-personal A10's and absolutely clear the joint out! (If you ever got a bunch of IS together, separated from civilians. Not likely the way those guys use human shields! I think we need boots on the ground, even if that means Russian boots in Syria).

I'll kick off the bidding and suggest you could get 5 of these highly adaptable Scorpions for 1 F35. You get not just a plane, but a fast design process that is lightning fast (pardon the pun) to fit new planes with the latest kit.
p025zfnl.jpg

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140903-low-cost-fighter-jets-take-off

So there is 5 good fighters for one F35 dog. Now we're going to spend our next F35 on some bombers. What would you recommend? You have $100 million to spend!
 
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RDKirk

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I just wanted to bump this thread up given some recent articles about the sheer cost of the F-35's helmets, at $400,000 a piece. What are people thinking about the F-35 these days? Like, dislike?

Back in 1996, a general who was a personal friend of mine retired from the Air Force. At a private after-ceremony get together with a few of us who'd known him since he was a captain, he shared the opinion that the F-22 would be the Air Force's last manned fighter.

When the F-35 followed, I figured the general's prediction was wrong...but I can't yet predict that his prediction is faulty...not yet.

It does not mean abandoning any F-35's, but might mean buying fewer F-35's and far more, far cheaper alternatives for lower risk missions. EG: Why fly an F35 over ISIS? Why not a bunch of anti-personal A10's and absolutely clear the joint out! (If you ever got a bunch of IS together, separated from civilians. Not likely the way those guys use human shields!

The Air Force plans to use the F-35 to replace the A-10 for CAS. The Air Force never really liked the A-10. Moves too slow.

The "fighter mafia" is fighting for its life right now.
 
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eclipsenow

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Back in 1996, a general who was a personal friend of mine retired from the Air Force. At a private after-ceremony get together with a few of us who'd known him since he was a captain, he shared the opinion that the F-22 would be the Air Force's last manned fighter.
Interesting: was he thinking about drones at first, or fully automated robot fighters?



The Air Force plans to use the F-35 to replace the A-10 for CAS. The Air Force never really liked the A-10. Moves too slow.
Sorry, I was Australian army, not air-force. CAS?

The "fighter mafia" is fighting for its life right now.
Are you referring to the guys pushing the F35 here?
 
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eclipsenow

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Cool, which corps?
Survey corps as a cartographer.
We threw maps at the enemy! :oldthumbsup:
(Who knows: a missile hundreds of years in the future might fly down a gully I mapped into 1980's technology computers who's 3d modelling was only enhanced over the decades by better data cores and overlaid with satnav tech).

Close Air Support
So, taking out the bad guys on the ground? What does an A10 do different to choppers?
 
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Armoured

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Survey corps as a cartographer.
We threw maps at the enemy! :oldthumbsup:
(Who knows: a missile hundreds of years in the future might fly down a gully I mapped into 1980's technology computers who's 3d modelling was only enhanced over the decades by better data cores and overlaid with satnav tech).
I was Armour. Loved your work.
So, taking out the bad guys on the ground? What does an A10 do different to choppers?
Well, it can't hover, I guess? I dunno. I just know what CAS stands for.
 
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RDKirk

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Interesting: was he thinking about drones at first, or fully automated robot fighters?

Drones. He was not a fighter pilot, so he was not part of their "mafia" and could look more objectively at the situation.

Sorry, I was Australian army, not air-force. CAS?

Close Air Support to ground combat troops. The US Air Force owns the mission of supporting troops with fixed-wing aircraft. However, the "fighter mafia" that has controlled the Air Force since the late 60s believes that air-to-air combat must always be the dominant mission and denigrates other missions...although looking objectively at the future, those other missions are more significant to the overall effort of fighting future wars.


Are you referring to the guys pushing the F35 here?

Yes. But that's probably changing. It can't be denied that air-to-air combat has been unessential in the war the US has been fighting since the end of the Cold War. Right now, we still see it takes "air-to-air" in an Air Force officer's resume to make Chief of Staff, but that can't go on forever. The current Chief of Staff has an air-to-air background, but never actually flew in combat (as far as I can see from his resume). It's been CAS and cargo pilots who have actually flown in unfriendly skies the last couple of decades--sooner or later their time as the policy makers must come.
 
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RDKirk

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So, taking out the bad guys on the ground? What does an A10 do different to choppers?

Get flown by Air Force pilots. When the US Air Force was separated from the US Army, a relatively arbitrary rule was set that the Army would continue to fly helicopters (which were pretty new devices at the time and of very light utility) and the Air Force would concentrate on fixed wing aircraft.

It's not a perfect divide--the Army does use some light utility fixed wing aircraft and the Air Force does use some cargo and utility helicopters...although the Air Force is trying to get rid of them just as it's trying to get rid of the A-10. But for sure, the helicopter is the Army's "fighting aircraft" and the fixed-wing craft is the Air Force's "fighting aircraft."

Interestingly, Air Force pilots commonly call their helicopters "airplanes."
 
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eclipsenow

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Get flown by Air Force pilots. When the US Air Force was separated from the US Army, a relatively arbitrary rule was set that the Army would continue to fly helicopters (which were pretty new devices at the time and of very light utility) and the Air Force would concentrate on fixed wing aircraft.

It's not a perfect divide--the Army does use some light utility fixed wing aircraft and the Air Force does use some cargo and utility helicopters...although the Air Force is trying to get rid of them just as it's trying to get rid of the A-10. But for sure, the helicopter is the Army's "fighting aircraft" and the fixed-wing craft is the Air Force's "fighting aircraft."

Interestingly, Air Force pilots commonly call their helicopters "airplanes."
1. If you were a grunt in enemy territory facing someone like ISIS, would you prefer CAS from an A10 or Choppers?

2. If the Airforce is so keen on promoting air-to-air, why not dedicated stealth fighters? Why these fat pig F-35? Is everything missiles now? I hear the F-35 is supposed to be able to target 8 aircraft simultaneously in 360degrees. Is it *just* a missile delivery system, and the moment it is actually seen by the naked eye it's compromised? Or is it also meant to dog-fight a little? Also, if it *can* target 8 aircraft, what if it comes up against a few scorpions all pointing their own missiles at it? Remember, we are talking about a funding ratio of 5 Scorpions to 1F35, and at $400k each, 50 F-35 helmets could buy another Scorpion!
 
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RDKirk

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1. If you were a grunt in enemy territory facing someone like ISIS, would you prefer CAS from an A10 or Choppers?

The only thing that would matter to me is the ability of the platform to put a lot of .50 rounds and rockets where I want them when I want them.

Whether that turns out to be Army helicopters or Air Force A-10 depends on availability judgments made 'way above my pay grade. I do know of one case where I watched an Army Ground Liaison Officer (GLO) explode into absolute apoplexy when the A-10 strike he requested to protect an infantry battalion got got diverted to search for a downed pilot. That's why the Army has its own attack helicopters.

The disadvantage, though, is that helicopters don't have the speed and range to be called across an entire front where needed.

2. If the Airforce is so keen on promoting air-to-air, why not dedicated stealth fighters? Why these fat pig F-35? Is everything missiles now? I hear the F-35 is supposed to be able to target 8 aircraft simultaneously in 360degrees. Is it *just* a missile delivery system, and the moment it is actually seen by the naked eye it's compromised? Or is it also meant to dog-fight a little? Also, if it *can* target 8 aircraft, what if it comes up against a few scorpions all pointing their own missiles at it? Remember, we are talking about a funding ratio of 5 Scorpions to 1F35, and at $400k each, 50 F-35 helmets could buy another Scorpion!

I've seen F-16 successfully defeat F-15 when the F-15 had to turn off their BVR (beyond visual range) capabilities (which can happen in an airspace with lots of friendlies around).

But there are some very, very smart systems these days that can identify unfriendies from a much greater distance than the human eye can under the best circumstances, and much more accurately and quickly than even when well within visual range. It's not all just IFF, either, but all kinds of fancy long-range, high-tech sniffers, not to mention information being calculated by other platforms (such as AWACS, JTACCS, and even satellites) fed to the aircraft's onboard computer. So, yeah, in a way if the pilot finds himself in a dogfight, a whole lot of things have gone wrong.

However, I'm not at all sure it takes a billion dollar platform for that.
 
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JackRT

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Just remember that not too long ago problems that were discovered on new airplanes were often found in wreckage. Having to ground a fleet of planes occasionally is nothing.

True! Over the past few years the Royal Canadian Air Force has twice had to take over the air defense of Alaska when the USAF fleet of F-15s was grounded.
 
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