Fre will to me means that I have a choice to decide what to believe or not what is truth and what is not. I believe that just because Gods what we are going to do before we do it dosent remove my free will. He just knows us sonwell that he knows how we are going to react to different situations
Free will
- Thread starter fatboys
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I have to question that. I have much more choice over what I do than what I believe. I believe whatever I am persuaded is true, I don't just choose beliefs like I do ice cream.
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It seems to me once you know the source of your beliefs you may well change them but you are doing so on the basis of evidence that one belief is more credible than the other. If you simply decide 'this one suits me better' that's not really a belief.
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Well if someone gives you a command, do you have the will to obey it or disobey? Or is that answer already decided and whether it was the one you desired or not, you simply cannot change it?
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I think that is the opposite of what I'm saying. Once you understand why you believe something you're conceptions of what is true are more likely to align themselves with the evidence, not simply what serves you best. What serves you best, is what Karl Marx called an ideology.
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It might. But again, you are only going to believe something if you are persuaded it is true.
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Well, that's the rub. There are verses that seem to indicate Free Will...but there are verses that seem to support Election/Predestination. We can create a logical argument for either one, but what matters is which perspective the Bible really is teaching us.
And, BTW, I'm not speaking of whether we have a range of choice on all kinds of decisions -- which people often call "Free Will" -- as opposed to being some sort of mindless robot that's pre-programmed to do everything in life that we do. No. That could be what comes to mind when we are confronted with the term "Free Will," but no one that I know thinks we are just mindless pre-programmed machines.
The issue really is whether or not we can come to God or even respond to God unless he makes it possible, i.e. predestination. It's certain that we have free will in other matters, but what of this most important one?
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I have always had trouble with predestination. Because logically how can I be held accountable for whatever outcome I receive? And if that outcome is Hell, how is it just that God predestined me to be condemned to Hell? If we have free will in some matters, why wouldn't we have it in this most important one? How can someone be commended for their strong faith if it really was not up to them because they were predestined to have faith?
While the Bible prophesies that many people will not believe in God, it also indicates faithing in the Lord or not faithing is a matter of will. That is why non-believers are called rebellious or stubborn, because they will not submit their will to God's. I just don't understand how they could be held accountable for their sins or faithlessness if it was never their free will to harbor that attitude...
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Albion
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Logically held responsible for believing in Christ? You're held responsible for not doing any murder, idol worship, theft, etc. already, so I don't quite get the point of this comment.
Well, you're jumping ahead there. I was saying that there is a reason for thinking we come to God only because God makes it possible; and you have recast that as a concern about God having "predestined me to be condemned to Hell!"
Because choosing the right fork in the road instead of the left fork is within our capabilities. It's not so easy to argue that this is the same as coming to Faith in a supreme being who transcends space and time and whom your senses and intelligence are not able to comprehend on their own.
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The Liver and Onion Parable
Let me try and analogy on you, let's call it the Liver and Onion (LnO) Parable.
Suppose you detest LnO. The sight and smell make you sick. You once, to appease the insistence of a friend that LnO really is good tasting, touched your tongue's tip to the LnO and the taste repulsed you.
You are invited to a buffet where a friend suggests you try some LnO. You refuse. He insists that the LnO is wonderful. He takes a bite and smiles saying "Just try it." You say, "No way!"
You freely reject the LnO because of your senses (sight, taste and smell). You do so on this occasion and every occasion it is offered to you. Your action regarding LnO is predictable and certain.
SUCH is the unregenerate's free rejection of God because his heart and nature is only evil continuously.
===
Now suppose this LnO loather is supernaturally change into a LnO lover.
God changes his taste buds as well as olfactory and mental responses. Now, at the buffet he asks his friend, "What smells so good?" He is surprised to find that the great smell comes from a plate of LnO! He is further surprised that it really doesn't look that bad now, in fact it looks good. He is salivating.
He grabs a fork and timidly takes a small bite to his tongue for a test. The test becomes a taste -- then he eats a huge serving. LnO has sudedenly become his favorite food. From that day on he looks for LnO whereever he can find it and he specifically requests it. He is a L&O lover now.
He freely and predictably chooses LnO after this craving has been placed upon him by God.
SUCH is the response of one who is regenerated by receiving a new heart and nature.
====
BTW, in Heaven... Everyone loves LnO. Nothing else is eaten or even desired. All freely savor the smell and taste of LnO forever and ever. Hallelujah!
Let me try and analogy on you, let's call it the Liver and Onion (LnO) Parable.
Suppose you detest LnO. The sight and smell make you sick. You once, to appease the insistence of a friend that LnO really is good tasting, touched your tongue's tip to the LnO and the taste repulsed you.
You are invited to a buffet where a friend suggests you try some LnO. You refuse. He insists that the LnO is wonderful. He takes a bite and smiles saying "Just try it." You say, "No way!"
You freely reject the LnO because of your senses (sight, taste and smell). You do so on this occasion and every occasion it is offered to you. Your action regarding LnO is predictable and certain.
SUCH is the unregenerate's free rejection of God because his heart and nature is only evil continuously.
===
Now suppose this LnO loather is supernaturally change into a LnO lover.
God changes his taste buds as well as olfactory and mental responses. Now, at the buffet he asks his friend, "What smells so good?" He is surprised to find that the great smell comes from a plate of LnO! He is further surprised that it really doesn't look that bad now, in fact it looks good. He is salivating.
He grabs a fork and timidly takes a small bite to his tongue for a test. The test becomes a taste -- then he eats a huge serving. LnO has sudedenly become his favorite food. From that day on he looks for LnO whereever he can find it and he specifically requests it. He is a L&O lover now.
He freely and predictably chooses LnO after this craving has been placed upon him by God.
SUCH is the response of one who is regenerated by receiving a new heart and nature.
====
BTW, in Heaven... Everyone loves LnO. Nothing else is eaten or even desired. All freely savor the smell and taste of LnO forever and ever. Hallelujah!
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0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
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