Hypocritical to accept the Bible but not the Catholic Church?

Open Heart · Jul 1, 2015

katerinah1947 said:
Finally, it is to be noted that only adults are capable of receiving the baptism of desire.

This statement from New Advent seems to contradict what has been said here about infants receiving the baptism of desire. Do you have a different source? Also, it would help if you narrowed your quote to that which documents your case, or at least highlighted somehow the sentence(s) that you want to draw our attention to as proof of your point. IOW your quote was too long and vague.

katerinah1947 · Jul 1, 2015

Open Heart said:
This statement from New Advent seems to contradict what has been said here about infants receiving the baptism of desire. Do you have a different source? Also, it would help if you narrowed your quote to that which documents your case, or at least highlighted somehow the sentence(s) that you want to draw our attention to as proof of your point. IOW your quote was too long and vague.

Hi,
Yes it does. When I replied, I gave my view. I gave my desires. And I also said, that I have not looked this issue up. I did that so as to not say things are true, when it was only an opinion of mine.
I still do not know the answer about infants. I know however what I want the answer to be. I know what I think the answer is. The answer is they see the face of God, and enjoy all of heaven. Only one reason I say that, but there are more, is that Jesus, near and abouts to Mark 9:38-42 He says to not impede the little children from coming to God.
Another reason is those who talked about the fates of infants, saying there is no possibility of them being the in the presence of God, were Saints, but also still in human form when they wrote things, and Saints even on earth are not infalliby declaring all things they say, but rather as time passes even that which was heard from God, has the chance of accidental error or extending a person's contact with God too far, thus saying and doing things not exactly from God.
And as far as I know of God has never talked to a saint yet, and told that Saint what is the fate of unbaptized babies.
For me it is left to emotions and feelings with content. My emotions want all babies to be with God, but that means nothing usually.
However, in my feelings with content, where the content is thought, and facts, and truth, just like thoughts are in males, God knew us before we came into these bodies on earth, and I say He had conversations with each of us. Just knowing that God knew us before, we came to earth in these bodies, says to me I cannot deny, and I cannot plausibly say that after death, God does not have conversations with them also.
After all, Biblically, does it not say somewhere that each person on earth has the same fate in seeing Jesus in the heavens after this earth, and it is between them what happens. Is it not a conversation? Is it not that person being judged?
And if that conversation with Jesus includes Jesus knowing their hearts desire, if that desire is such that they wish to be right with God, can anyone plausibly say, that does not happen?
Since we are not told, anywhere it seems to me, what happens to babies after death, even though Newadvent.org says that Baptisim by Desire only involves adults, which is an inconvenient but true Affirmation of Albion's position, there is really nothing we can definitively say as normal Nicene Christians.
Mormons have their views, and they have no place here, so no. I have nothing to say about their views, nor will I talk about their views here, on the subject of Baptism by Desire.
New Advent.org says it is only for Adults this baptism by desire.
I totally do not want them to be accurate. I accept whatever is true with God. I also notice that no one really knows, but there is much in even the Baptism of Blood by infants, and what is written after Mark 9:38-42 about children, to say infants go to God, they are not to be impeded by men, like the Bishops of that time, the Apostles.
I say, they see God. I say they have the Beatific Vision. I say they do, but only God can confirm that, through a saint on earth or in some other way.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

seeking633 · Jul 5, 2015

It is not my intention to "freak out" on you, but I wish to make some points in response to those statements I feel I am capable of addressing.

Turkleton said:
Logically, the Church with the authority to determine the infallible Word of God, must have the infallbible authorty and guidance of the Holy Spirit. As we have seen, apart from the declatartion fo the Catholic Church, we have abosulutely no guarantee that what is in the Bible is the genuine Word of God. To trust the Bible is to trust the authority of the Church which guarantees the Bible. It is contradictory for Protestans to accept the Bible and et to reject the authority of the Catholic Church.

It is the Holy Spirit which keeps the true Church of Jesus Christ together. The Roman Catholic Church has no authority to decide who and who is not a Christian.

Turkleton said:
Logically, Protestants should not quote the Bible at all, for they have no way of determining which books are inspired--unless, of course, they accept the teaching of the Catholic Church.

We accept the teaching of Jesus Christ, the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit, and the favour and providence of the Heavenly Father.

The same Bible that the Catholic Church claims to have provisioned also condemns it. To demonstrate this, simply read Matthew 23. If you take even that chapter as the word of God, you will never again call any priest "Father".

Open Heart · Jul 5, 2015

seeking633 said:
It is the Holy Spirit which keeps the true Church of Jesus Christ together. The Roman Catholic Church has no authority to decide who and who is not a Christian.

It depends on what you mean. the CC doesn't determine who goes to heaven and hell. we'll leave that up to God to decide. On the other hand, we do say that a Christian is anyone baptised in the name of the Father, son, and Holy Ghost who has not apostacized to another religion. Such a christian might be a terrible Christian, we understand.

bbbbbbb · Jul 6, 2015

Open Heart said:
It depends on what you mean. the CC doesn't determine who goes to heaven and hell. we'll leave that up to God to decide. On the other hand, we do say that a Christian is anyone baptised in the name of the Father, son, and Holy Ghost who has not apostacized to another religion. Such a christian might be a terrible Christian, we understand.

What is a terrible Christian? My understanding is that Jesus Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10). If He has truly saved them, how is that they can end up being terrible?

Dennis Hardy · Jul 6, 2015

Turkleton said:
Now don't freak out at me. Read my statements carefully and think before posting. Be open to what I state and be charitable when answering. I really want to know where protestants stand on this topic. Correct whatever statements I've made that are incorrect (fact wise). Make sure you are well informed on the history of Christianity when answering here.

Historically, the Catholic Church used her authority to determine which books belonged in the Bible, and to assure us that everything in the Bible is inspired. This is historical fact. Apart from the decision of the Church, we simply have no way of knowing either truth.

Martin Luther himself admits in his Commentary on St. John (ch. 16), "we are obliged to yield many things to the papists [Catholics]--that they possess the word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it." Luther is admitting that Christians owe their Bible to the efforts of the Catholic Church.

Luther's statement support the argument that without the decisions of the Catholic Church, we would not know which books of the Bible are inspired. St. Augustione says in "Contra Epistolam Manichaei, "I would put no faith in the Gospels unless the authority of theCatholic Church had directed me to do so." St. Augustine recognized that theonly way to determine which books are inspired is to accept the teaching authority of the Cahtolic Church.

Historically, the Bible is a Catholic Book. The official canon of books of the Bible was authoritatively determined by the Catholic Church in the 4th century. Thus it is from the Catholic Church that protestants have a Bible at all.

And here is my main point I would like to see most of the discussion go towards...

Logically, the Church with the authority to determine the infallible Word of God, must have the infallbible authorty and guidance of the Holy Spirit. As we have seen, apart from the declatartion fo the Catholic Church, we have abosulutely no guarantee that what is in the Bible is the genuine Word of God. To trust the Bible is to trust the authority of the Church which guarantees the Bible. It is contradictory for Protestans to accept the Bible and et to reject the authority of the Catholic Church.

Logically, Protestants should not quote the Bible at all, for they have no way of determining which books are inspired--unless, of course, they accept the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Here is a link that explains a few things. The shortest answer I have is straight from the Bible.
2Pe_1:19 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:"
God predicted the future in that Bible you speak of, and has not been wrong one time. That is how we can know the Bible is surely the Word of God. Only God knows the end from the beginning, and he tells us so that we can have faith that He is who He claims to be.
Joh_13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

Dennis Hardy · Jul 6, 2015

Dennis Hardy said:
Here is a link that explains a few things. The shortest answer I have is straight from the Bible.
2Pe_1:19 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:"
God predicted the future in that Bible you speak of, and has not been wrong one time. That is how we can know the Bible is surely the Word of God. Only God knows the end from the beginning, and he tells us so that we can have faith that He is who He claims to be.
Joh_13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

https://evenasi.wordpress.com/evenasi/

Winepress777 · Jul 6, 2015

Turkleton said:
Now don't freak out at me. Read my statements carefully and think before posting. Be open to what I state and be charitable when answering. I really want to know where protestants stand on this topic. Correct whatever statements I've made that are incorrect (fact wise). Make sure you are well informed on the history of Christianity when answering here.

Historically, the Catholic Church used her authority to determine which books belonged in the Bible, and to assure us that everything in the Bible is inspired. This is historical fact. Apart from the decision of the Church, we simply have no way of knowing either truth.

Martin Luther himself admits in his Commentary on St. John (ch. 16), "we are obliged to yield many things to the papists [Catholics]--that they possess the word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it." Luther is admitting that Christians owe their Bible to the efforts of the Catholic Church.

Luther's statement support the argument that without the decisions of the Catholic Church, we would not know which books of the Bible are inspired. St. Augustione says in "Contra Epistolam Manichaei, "I would put no faith in the Gospels unless the authority of theCatholic Church had directed me to do so." St. Augustine recognized that theonly way to determine which books are inspired is to accept the teaching authority of the Cahtolic Church.

Historically, the Bible is a Catholic Book. The official canon of books of the Bible was authoritatively determined by the Catholic Church in the 4th century. Thus it is from the Catholic Church that protestants have a Bible at all.

And here is my main point I would like to see most of the discussion go towards...

Logically, the Church with the authority to determine the infallible Word of God, must have the infallbible authorty and guidance of the Holy Spirit. As we have seen, apart from the declatartion fo the Catholic Church, we have abosulutely no guarantee that what is in the Bible is the genuine Word of God. To trust the Bible is to trust the authority of the Church which guarantees the Bible. It is contradictory for Protestans to accept the Bible and et to reject the authority of the Catholic Church.

Logically, Protestants should not quote the Bible at all, for they have no way of determining which books are inspired--unless, of course, they accept the teaching of the Catholic Church.

God can use an ass to warn Baalim. That doesn't mean we all should start worshipping the ass.

Crowns&Laurels · Jul 12, 2015

Pfft. The Catholic Church has abandoned the Bible- the works of the actual prophets and sages. A made up succession that has only brought trouble to men, what business should I have with a chair painted with death?

Rick Otto · Jul 12, 2015

Crowns&Laurels said:
Pfft. The Catholic Church has abandoned the Bible- the works of the actual prophets and sages. A made up succession that has only brought trouble to men, what business should I have with a chair painted with death?

No need to sugar coat your point, brother.

Crowns&Laurels · Jul 12, 2015

Rick Otto said:
No need to sugar coat your point, brother.

Is that sarcasm I detect? ^_^

bbbbbbb · Jul 13, 2015

Crowns&Laurels said:
Pfft. The Catholic Church has abandoned the Bible- the works of the actual prophets and sages. A made up succession that has only brought trouble to men, what business should I have with a chair painted with death?

nt419 · Aug 8, 2015

Yikes. Here's a thought. Jesus is the Word. Believe He Is and you have access to the Father.

Jesus made access to the Father by His atoning sacrifice on the cross. Jesus came to free us from the rules of man's religious tendencies.

Love God, love your neighbour. Love each other (believers) and the world will know I Am who I say I Am.(Jesus)

Paul's message was "Christ and Him crucified." Full stop. Everything else he said was to try and bring people back to the TRUTH, who is also the Way and the Life.

As to the canon of scripture. Whether or not the men who wrote it, translated it or selected it were inspired by the Holy Spirit or not is moot. The reader (you and me) are irrefutably subjective. The scripture may be perfect but we are not.

Read the scriptures with the Holy Spirit, "the Spirit of truth" (John 16:13) and do what it says. Simple. (NOT easy)

A time is coming when there will be neither Jew nor Gentile, Catholic nor Protestant. The world will decide who you are by the way you answer one simple question. It is a question my Lord asked of his disciples some 2,000 years ago. "Who do you say I am?"

Albion · Aug 8, 2015

Almost posted. Then noticed it's a zombie thread.

Blades · Aug 15, 2015

Turkleton said:
Now don't freak out at me. Read my statements carefully and think before posting. Be open to what I state and be charitable when answering. I really want to know where protestants stand on this topic. Correct whatever statements I've made that are incorrect (fact wise). Make sure you are well informed on the history of Christianity when answering here.

Historically, the Catholic Church used her authority to determine which books belonged in the Bible, and to assure us that everything in the Bible is inspired. This is historical fact. Apart from the decision of the Church, we simply have no way of knowing either truth.

Martin Luther himself admits in his Commentary on St. John (ch. 16), "we are obliged to yield many things to the papists [Catholics]--that they possess the word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it." Luther is admitting that Christians owe their Bible to the efforts of the Catholic Church.

Luther's statement support the argument that without the decisions of the Catholic Church, we would not know which books of the Bible are inspired. St. Augustione says in "Contra Epistolam Manichaei, "I would put no faith in the Gospels unless the authority of theCatholic Church had directed me to do so." St. Augustine recognized that theonly way to determine which books are inspired is to accept the teaching authority of the Cahtolic Church.

Historically, the Bible is a Catholic Book. The official canon of books of the Bible was authoritatively determined by the Catholic Church in the 4th century. Thus it is from the Catholic Church that protestants have a Bible at all.

And here is my main point I would like to see most of the discussion go towards...

Logically, the Church with the authority to determine the infallible Word of God, must have the infallbible authorty and guidance of the Holy Spirit. As we have seen, apart from the declatartion fo the Catholic Church, we have abosulutely no guarantee that what is in the Bible is the genuine Word of God. To trust the Bible is to trust the authority of the Church which guarantees the Bible. It is contradictory for Protestans to accept the Bible and et to reject the authority of the Catholic Church.

Logically, Protestants should not quote the Bible at all, for they have no way of determining which books are inspired--unless, of course, they accept the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Blades · Aug 15, 2015

Turkleton said:
Now don't freak out at me. Read my statements carefully and think before posting. Be open to what I state and be charitable when answering. I really want to know where protestants stand on this topic. Correct whatever statements I've made that are incorrect (fact wise). Make sure you are well informed on the history of Christianity when answering here.

Historically, the Catholic Church used her authority to determine which books belonged in the Bible, and to assure us that everything in the Bible is inspired. This is historical fact. Apart from the decision of the Church, we simply have no way of knowing either truth.

Martin Luther himself admits in his Commentary on St. John (ch. 16), "we are obliged to yield many things to the papists [Catholics]--that they possess the word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it." Luther is admitting that Christians owe their Bible to the efforts of the Catholic Church.

Luther's statement support the argument that without the decisions of the Catholic Church, we would not know which books of the Bible are inspired. St. Augustione says in "Contra Epistolam Manichaei, "I would put no faith in the Gospels unless the authority of theCatholic Church had directed me to do so." St. Augustine recognized that theonly way to determine which books are inspired is to accept the teaching authority of the Cahtolic Church.

Historically, the Bible is a Catholic Book. The official canon of books of the Bible was authoritatively determined by the Catholic Church in the 4th century. Thus it is from the Catholic Church that protestants have a Bible at all.

And here is my main point I would like to see most of the discussion go towards...

Logically, the Church with the authority to determine the infallible Word of God, must have the infallbible authorty and guidance of the Holy Spirit. As we have seen, apart from the declatartion fo the Catholic Church, we have abosulutely no guarantee that what is in the Bible is the genuine Word of God. To trust the Bible is to trust the authority of the Church which guarantees the Bible. It is contradictory for Protestans to accept the Bible and et to reject the authority of the Catholic Church.

Logically, Protestants should not quote the Bible at all, for they have no way of determining which books are inspired--unless, of course, they accept the teaching of the Catholic Church.

We have a Bible because of Gods efforts to reveal it not the RC Church, I was watching History Channel today and was shocked at the amount of innocent blood on the Hands of the RC church down through History I think if more people knew the History of the RC Church they would avoid such a Synagog of Satan, murder of other Christians to aquire their lands and wealth under the guise of Heresy in All of human History I do not think you could find a more murderouse and greedy organisation than the RC Church, as a Christian with the Holy Spirit indwelling inside me it makes me shudder to think such an Ungodly and Criminal Organisation is still allowed to exist in the World today. I have no doubts that God will thouroughlyDestroy the Abomination this alledged Church has become and strip her of any authority this harlot seems to think she has, and all creation will bear wittness too it.....

zippy2 · Aug 15, 2015

Albion said:
Almost posted. Then noticed it's a zombie thread.

whats a 'zombie thread'?

bbbbbbb · Aug 15, 2015

zippy2 said:
whats a 'zombie thread'?

A thread that has expired and died peacefully, only to unexpectedly come to life again at a much later date, usually after the earlier posters have either left CF altogether or are no longer interested in the thread.

sahjimira · Aug 15, 2015

Oh boy! It's not like the RCC wrote the bible. All scripture is God inspired. The compilation of material I wouldn't put in the infallible category, inspired OK but not on par with the authors of the scriptures.

Hypocritical to accept the Bible but not the Catholic Church?

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