Ayn Rand: I am stunned

LOVEthroughINTELLECT

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I am stunned. I probably should not be. I probably should have expected it. But I am stunned.

Just when I thought that it could not get any worse I read these words in a Wikipedia article titled "Objectivism's rejection of the primitive":


"Rand's Objectivism rejects primitivism and tribalism, while arguing that they are symptomatic of an "anti-industrial" mentality. Rand believed that the indigenous Native Americans, who in her estimation exhibited these "savage" traits, thus forfeited their property rights in doing so. Rand also contended that Native Americans, "having failed for millennia to create a heroically productive capitalist society, deserved to be stripped of their land." When Rand addressed West Point Military Academy cadets in 1974 and was asked about the dispossession and "cultural genocide" of Native Americans which occurred en route to forming the United States, she replied that indigenous people "had no right to a country merely because they were born here and then acted like savages .... Since the Indians did not have the concept of property or property rights – they didn't have a settled society, they had predominantly nomadic tribal "cultures" – they didn't have rights to the land, and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights that they had not conceived of and were not using." Rand went on to opine that "in opposing the white man" Native Americans wished to "continue a primitive existence" and "live like animals or cavemen", surmising that "any European who brought with him an element of civilization had the right to take over this continent."" (emphasis mine).


I kind of sensed all along that Ayn Rand was on the side of evil. However, I never would have imagined this.

And there are people who admire Ayn Rand. During the last presidential election in the U.S. we even had a candidate for Vice President who considered her work to be gospel so much that he requires his staff to read it.

Scary.
 
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WirSindBettler

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I am stunned. I probably should not be. I probably should have expected it. But I am stunned.

Just when I thought that it could not get any worse I read these words in a Wikipedia article titled "Objectivism's rejection of the primitive":


"Rand's Objectivism rejects primitivism and tribalism, while arguing that they are symptomatic of an "anti-industrial" mentality. Rand believed that the indigenous Native Americans, who in her estimation exhibited these "savage" traits, thus forfeited their property rights in doing so. Rand also contended that Native Americans, "having failed for millennia to create a heroically productive capitalist society, deserved to be stripped of their land." When Rand addressed West Point Military Academy cadets in 1974 and was asked about the dispossession and "cultural genocide" of Native Americans which occurred en route to forming the United States, she replied that indigenous people "had no right to a country merely because they were born here and then acted like savages .... Since the Indians did not have the concept of property or property rights – they didn't have a settled society, they had predominantly nomadic tribal "cultures" – they didn't have rights to the land, and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights that they had not conceived of and were not using." Rand went on to opine that "in opposing the white man" Native Americans wished to "continue a primitive existence" and "live like animals or cavemen", surmising that "any European who brought with him an element of civilization had the right to take over this continent."" (emphasis mine).


I kind of sensed all along that Ayn Rand was on the side of evil. However, I never would have imagined this.

And there are people who admire Ayn Rand. During the last presidential election in the U.S. we even had a candidate for Vice President who considered her work to be gospel so much that he requires his staff to read it.

Scary.

Rand makes some good points, but her anti-theism leads her down some pretty disgusting roads. You're beginning to see some of these roads (she has worse).
 
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Eudaimonist

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I'd be very careful here.

You are reading someone talking about Rand, instead of focusing on what Ayn Rand herself had written. You are getting a filtered message.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Cearbhall

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Rand also contended that Native Americans, "having failed for millennia to create a heroically productive capitalist society, deserved to be stripped of their land." When Rand addressed West Point Military Academy cadets in 1974 and was asked about the dispossession and "cultural genocide" of Native Americans which occurred en route to forming the United States, she replied that indigenous people "had no right to a country merely because they were born here and then acted like savages .... Since the Indians did not have the concept of property or property rights – they didn't have a settled society, they had predominantly nomadic tribal "cultures" – they didn't have rights to the land, and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights that they had not conceived of and were not using." Rand went on to opine that "in opposing the white man" Native Americans wished to "continue a primitive existence" and "live like animals or cavemen", surmising that "any European who brought with him an element of civilization had the right to take over this continent."" (emphasis mine).
Disgusting. I once came across a website which said that the Native Americans should be grateful because they hadn't even invented the wheel and wouldn't be benefiting from modern technology today if they hadn't been invaded. What logic...
 
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Moral Orel

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You are reading someone talking about Rand, instead of focusing on what Ayn Rand herself had written. You are getting a filtered message.

Ayn Rand's most important philosophy was the "virtue of selfishness". She wrote that famous book "Atlas Shrugged" which is basically about rich people creating their own new world to live in away from all the poors... And just to make sure we're reading what Ayn Rand said, and not what someone said Ayn Rand said, here she is speaking to West Point in 1974:

They didn’t have any rights to the land, and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights which they had not conceived and were not using... What was it that they were fighting for, when they opposed white men on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive existence, their "right" to keep part of the earth untouched, unused and not even as property, but just keep everybody out so that you will live practically like an animal, or a few caves above it. Any white person who brings the element of civilization has the right to take over this continent.​

She was a bad lady through and through.
 
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Eudaimonist

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She wrote that famous book "Atlas Shrugged" which is basically about rich people creating their own new world to live in away from all the poors...

That is a very poor description of the novel. It isn't about that at all.

It is about the "men of the mind" going on strike. It is not at all about rich versus poor. Some of the people who went on strike were poor, and some of the villians of the novel were rich. And it wasn't about escaping poverty, since the people on strike generally lived less luxurious lives than they had in the outside world.

All it takes is to read the novel with honesty to see what the story is really all about.

They didn’t have any rights to the land, and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights which they had not conceived and were not using... What was it that they were fighting for, when they opposed white men on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive existence, their "right" to keep part of the earth untouched, unused and not even as property, but just keep everybody out so that you will live practically like an animal, or a few caves above it. Any white person who brings the element of civilization has the right to take over this continent.

She was a bad lady through and through.

That view might not be politically correct these days, but it doesn't make her a bad person. It is at least debatable.

Of course, if you want to see her as a bad person, nothing can stop you.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Children of the light

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That is a very poor description of the novel. It isn't about that at all.

It is about the "men of the mind" going on strike. It is not at all about rich versus poor. Some of the people who went on strike were poor, and some of the villians of the novel were rich. And it wasn't about escaping poverty, since the people on strike generally lived less luxurious lives than they had in the outside world.

All it takes is to read the novel with honesty to see what the story is really all about.



That view might not be politically correct these days, but it doesn't make her a bad person. It is at least debatable.

Of course, if you want to see her as a bad person, nothing can stop you.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Yes I agree we should totally read and check first because we need to.
 
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Albion

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And there are people who admire Ayn Rand. During the last presidential election in the U.S. we even had a candidate for Vice President who considered her work to be gospel so much that he requires his staff to read it.

Scary.

I've noticed that when the views are generally what a reader likes, the writer is excused for some of his or her views, But when the ideas are generally out of favor, ANY little thought that is expressed anywhere is held up as typical of that person's whole philosophy of life, and all of it is denounced. :doh:

For example, plenty of Christians like Ayn Rand's works and do not trash them just because she also was an outspoken atheist.
 
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Albion

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I am stunned. I probably should not be. I probably should have expected it. But I am stunned....I kind of sensed all along that Ayn Rand was on the side of evil. However, I never would have imagined this.

And there are people who admire Ayn Rand. During the last presidential election in the U.S. we even had a candidate for Vice President who considered her work to be gospel so much that he requires his staff to read it.

Scary.

The reason many people admire Ayn Rand's WORKS (if not Rand herself) is because her writings were an effective argument for the morality of individual freedom.

It's not uncommon for people to appreciate some point made by an author, even though they might disagree with other views expressed by that author.
 
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LOVEthroughINTELLECT

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I've noticed that when the views are generally what a reader likes, the writer is excused for some of his or her views, But when the ideas are generally out of favor, ANY little thought that is expressed anywhere is held up as typical of that person's whole philosophy of life, and all of it is denounced. :doh:

For example, plenty of Christians like Ayn Rand's works and do not trash them just because she also was an outspoken atheist.

The reason many people admire Ayn Rand's WORKS (if not Rand herself) is because her writings were an effective argument for the morality of individual freedom.

It's not uncommon for people to appreciate some point made by an author, even though they might disagree with other views expressed by that author.




Or people endorse another person's ideas without knowing their complete context.

Therefore, with respect to Ayn Rand, either people know what she said about Native Americans but they do not care or do not feel any need to preface their endorsement with a disclaimer, or they are oblivious to the fact that the source of the thoughts that they appreciate so much approved of one of the worst injustices in recorded history. Either way it is scary.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Or people endorse another person's ideas without knowing their complete context.

Therefore, with respect to Ayn Rand, either people know what she said about Native Americans but they do not care or do not feel any need to preface their endorsement with a disclaimer, or they are oblivious to the fact that the source of the thoughts that they appreciate so much approved of one of the worst injustices in recorded history. Either way it is scary.

This could be said of many people in the past. Theodore Roosevelt was an ardent eugenicist. Lincoln and Jefferson were paternal racists. Franklin Roosevelt displayed a tendency toward totaltarianism. Rand is not one of my favorite people as I disagree with her on many more thing than i agree with her on but like the others i mentioned some things she said deserve to be considered while others deserve to be trashed.
 
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Albion

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Or people endorse another person's ideas without knowing their complete context.
]
Yes, that is another possibility.

Therefore, with respect to Ayn Rand, either people know what she said about Native Americans but they do not care or do not feel any need to preface their endorsement with a disclaimer, or they are oblivious to the fact that the source of the thoughts that they appreciate so much approved of one of the worst injustices in recorded history. Either way it is scary.
 
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Cuddles333

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She and Margaret Sanger were with the same movement that nearly succeeded in the 1920s through the 1930s in the U.S.A. Germany was working on this project at about the same time and would have succeeded had not Hitler decided to invade Russia. It is the greatest thing collectively the Humanists could have ever achieved. If the New Testament had not existed, it would have been very difficult for people to be against it....even if you were one of the undesirables .
 
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