Vatican Secretary of State: Ireland Referendum "A Defeat for Humanity"

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frenchdefense

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Actually, you are on the side that isn't even trying to win the argument and is instead merely using governmental power to silence the opposition to so-called "same-sex marriage."

In a democracy the goverment is us and I have to win an argument to get what I want.

Also, go look at the polls - There's more of me than you. Argue all you want, please it's your right but don't kid yourself about the success you're having.

And remember one more thing: I gave you guys a winning argument about 5 times on this board and got beat up for it.

So, hey, snark at me all you want.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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In a democracy the goverment is us and I have to win an argument to get what I want.

Also, go look at the polls - There's more of me than you. Argue all you want, please it's your right but don't kid yourself about the success you're having.
You just proved my point that you are relying on power of government and popular opinion instead of a reasoned argument. You are basically telling me that you win because you have the government and the majority on your side.
 
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parousia70

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You are basically telling me that you win because you have the government and the majority on your side.

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't that how folks are supposed to win political battles in a democratic republic?
 
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parousia70

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In a democracy the goverment is us

This used to be broadly understood... However, ever since Reagan cam along with the meme that government is not an "US" to be fostered, cared for, encouraged, invested in, supported and nurtured by and for one another, but instead is an "OTHER" to be feared, suspected, mistrusted, and ultimately starved and extinguished, people have forgotten WHY we ever became a nation at all.

The evidence of what we did together as a nation from FDR through Carter in terms of building infrastructure, raising the standard of living, essentially investing in US, compared and contrasted with the abdication, divestment, and dilapidation of the same from Reagan till now is a stark reminder of just how destructive that "new" meme of Reagan's has been to our country.
 
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Rhamiel

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Mark 8:36
For what shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his soul?

feel free to go with the position that brings you accolades from the World
but be ready to answer to Christ the King about why you rejected His laws and why you drove those nails into His hands by encouraging others to sin
 
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Armoured

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You just proved my point that you are relying on power of government and popular opinion instead of a reasoned argument. You are basically telling me that you win because you have the government and the majority on your side.
Um, pretty sure that's the definition of "winning" in a political issue. What do you think winning consists of?
 
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Armoured

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Mark 8:36
For what shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his soul?

feel free to go with the position that brings you accolades from the World
but be ready to answer to Christ the King about why you rejected His laws and why you drove those nails into His hands by encouraging others to sin
Which is well and good for people who believe SSM is a sin. Apparently the people of Ireland, or at least a majority of them, either do not, or don't consider it their place to impede the freedom of others to sin if they so chose.
 
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Armoured

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the majority of people in Ireland do not care about Christ or His laws
Or, perhaps, don't agree with your interpretation of them. Subtle yet significant difference.
 
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Fish and Bread

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feel free to go with the position that brings you accolades from the World

I don't know who you think is handing out accolades, but my position in favor of civil gay marriage has gotten me a lot more people upset at me than taking the opposite position would have. I favor civil gay marriage because I believe it is the most ethical and philosophically consistent position for someone who favors justice and equality under the law.

but be ready to answer to Christ the King about why you rejected His laws and why you drove those nails into His hands by encouraging others to sin

First of all, I did not drive any nails into Jesus' hands. I've never worked for the government of the Roman Empire and I wasn't alive in 33AD. It was before my time. Further, I am against the death penalty, so if I had been around, I wouldn't have sentenced him to death or supported that sentence even if I had supported his conviction in general, which I wouldn't have, obviously.

This idea that I'm always hearing or reading about that somehow my position on a political issue involving giving gay people the same legal rights that heterosexuals have is somehow killing Jesus is not logical to me on any level. Nothing I could possibly do short of building a time machine would involve killing Jesus.

Secondly, you've seen the length of my posts. Believe me, I'd be happy to say the same thing to Jesus I've said here on the forums on this issue, more or less. If he sends me to hell for it, that's his sin, not mine. That wouldn't be the behavior of an ethical God. I hope that God is better than that. I mean, I don't consider myself a Saint with a capital "S" or anything, so I would expect that God wouldn't do something as blatantly unethical as sending me to hell and allowing me to be tortured forever simply because I favor civil gay marriage, since if I were God, I wouldn't do that to you guys for being against it. If God is less ethical and loving than I am, we're all in big trouble. ;) I would hope he's a lot more ethical and loving, personally.
 
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Genersis

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Just comes off as a bit funny really.

Stating that the result were not just a defeat for Christianity but humanity, as if same-sex marriage is inhuman or perhaps inhumane? Does that also go for it's supporters I wonder.

Not that I really think the comment was supposed to be given enough weight to read such into it.
After all, there's only so many ways the Church can say "We don't approve of X" before they have to find more interesting ways of saying it.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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"Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawless is revealed, the son of perdition." - 2 Thessalonians 2:3

"Rejoice then, O heaven and you that dwell therein! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!” - Revelation 12:12
 
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pdudgeon

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I don't know who you think is handing out accolades, but my position in favor of civil gay marriage has gotten me a lot more people upset at me than taking the opposite position would have. I favor civil gay marriage because I believe it is the most ethical and philosophically consistent position for someone who favors justice and equality under the law.



First of all, I did not drive any nails into Jesus' hands. I've never worked for the government of the Roman Empire and I wasn't alive in 33AD. It was before my time. Further, I am against the death penalty, so if I had been around, I wouldn't have sentenced him to death or supported that sentence even if I had supported his conviction in general, which I wouldn't have, obviously.

This idea that I'm always hearing or reading about that somehow my position on a political issue involving giving gay people the same legal rights that heterosexuals have is somehow killing Jesus is not logical to me on any level. Nothing I could possibly do short of building a time machine would involve killing Jesus.

Secondly, you've seen the length of my posts. Believe me, I'd be happy to say the same thing to Jesus I've said here on the forums on this issue, more or less. If he sends me to hell for it, that's his sin, not mine. That wouldn't be the behavior of an ethical God. I hope that God is better than that. I mean, I don't consider myself a Saint with a capital "S" or anything, so I would expect that God wouldn't do something as blatantly unethical as sending me to hell and allowing me to be tortured forever simply because I favor civil gay marriage, since if I were God, I wouldn't do that to you guys for being against it. If God is less ethical and loving than I am, we're all in big trouble. ;) I would hope he's a lot more ethical and loving, personally.

You got your wish. God is a lot more ethical and loving than all of us here.
It's us who have to live up to His standards, not the other way around.
 
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pdudgeon

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Just comes off as a bit funny really.

Stating that the result were not just a defeat for Christianity but humanity, as if same-sex marriage is inhuman or perhaps inhumane? Does that also go for it's supporters I wonder.

Not that I really think the comment was supposed to be given enough weight to read such into it.
After all, there's only so many ways the Church can say "We don't approve of X" before they have to find more interesting ways of saying it.

Oh golly. why don't we just try the truth for a change.
The church doesn't have to change the way it tells the truth, but the world does have to change the way it lies in order to coerce more and more people to disbelieve the truth that the church is telling them.
 
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Fish and Bread

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"Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawless is revealed, the son of perdition." - 2 Thessalonians 2:3

"Rejoice then, O heaven and you that dwell therein! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!” - Revelation 12:12

We get it. You think the end of the world is near and it's going to be brought on by all we egalitarian liberals. ;) I have to ask... do you have a date when you think all this is going to happen? Should I mark my calendar?
 
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mark46

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Mark 8:36
For what shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his soul?

feel free to go with the position that brings you accolades from the World
but be ready to answer to Christ the King about why you rejected His laws and why you drove those nails into His hands by encouraging others to sin

Every Christian who believes that two people of the same sex should not be allowed to marry was certainly free to cast their vote. And Christians should be free to support bans on contraception and to require Sunday church attendance. That is our right as citizens. The OPEN question is whether Christians want a state where their pope or leader makes the laws or makes sure that they are consistent with our beliefs. Of course, then, only Christian marriages would be legal.

The United States made a decision. Many here believe that it was the wrong one. As a country we have agreed, and continue to agree, that the state is secular and will not make laws to support the beliefs of one religion.

This is a very old argument. The Jews wanted a king. God gave them one. We could decide to go back to theocracy as some countries have done, most notably Muslim countries. I stand in firm rejection of theocracy and in firm support of a secular government.
 
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pdudgeon

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Every Christian who believes that two people of the same sex should not be allowed to marry was certainly free to cast their vote. And Christians should be free to support bans on contraception and to require Sunday church attendance. That is our right as citizens. The OPEN question is whether Christians want a state where their pope or leader makes the laws or makes sure that they are consistent with our beliefs. Of course, then, only Christian marriages would be legal.

The United States made a decision. Many here believe that it was the wrong one. As a country we have agreed, and continue to agree, that the state is secular and will not make laws to support the beliefs of one religion.

This is a very old argument. The Jews wanted a king. God gave them one. We could decide to go back to theocracy as some countries have done, most notably Muslim countries. I stand in firm rejection of theocracy and in firm support of a secular government.

you might just have a surprise coming down the pike then. Read the book of Revelation, chapter 11.
 
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Armoured

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you might just have a surprise coming down the pike then. Read the book of Revelation, chapter 11.
yeah yeah. Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria. We get it. Just like happened in the Netherlands after they legalised SSM. The ebola drenched meteor craters of God's wrath there are plain to see.
 
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