The Conversion of the Jews

MoreCoffee · May 26, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
The difficulty for some is that rejecting Messiah has, in holy scripture, a name ...

Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist. No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.
(1 John 2:22-23 NAB)

Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh; such is the deceitful one and the antichrist.
(2 John 1:7 NAB)

I know your tribulation and poverty, but you are rich. I know the slander of those who claim to be Jews and are not, but rather are members of the assembly [synagogue] of Satan.
(Revelation 2:9 NAB)

Behold, I will make those of the assembly [synagogue] of Satan who claim to be Jews and are not, but are lying, behold I will make them come and fall prostrate at your feet, and they will realize that I love you.
(Revelation 3:9 NAB)

.

The passages are direct, harsh, and according to some they are anti-Jewish and anti-Semitic. Yet they are in holy scripture.

* It is odd that the NAB replaces synagogue with "assembly" when the word in the Greek is "συναγωγῆς" which in Latin letters is synagogas

hmmm, I did intend the above to be an edit of my earlier post. I guess I clicked the "reply" button accidentally.

MoreCoffee · May 26, 2015

dzheremi said:
Yes, but that has nothing to do with their recognizing him as the messiah, which they do.

True, they appear to call Isa the messiah; I wonder what meaning that has in their religion because it obviously can't mean to them what it means to Christians (or Jews I presume).

MoreCoffee · May 26, 2015

LivingWordUnity · May 26, 2015

LoAmmi said:
No, if that's what you believe then that is not what I intend. The Messiah will be the King of Israel in the Messianic age. The age is noted for universal peace, universal knowledge of G-d, all Jews in the land of Israel, and several other things like the rebuilding of the Temple. Since this occurs after the resurrection of the dead, death may not exist at that time, but that's my own speculation. Regardless, the idea is that the Kingship of Israel will not be vacant again after this happens.

I believe that Jesus is fully God and fully Man and that He is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. That's why it makes sense to me that Scripture describes Him as the "Son of Man" and King whose dominion is everlasting.

LivingWordUnity · May 26, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
I may be mistaken but isn't it common among Muslims to reject Jesus as God and to deny that he died on the cross and to make a number of other claims that any Christian would recognise as error?

Aren't Muslims forbidden to read the Old and New Testaments?

MoreCoffee · May 26, 2015

LivingWordUnity said:
Aren't Muslims also forbidden to read the Old and New Testaments?

Friends who have travelled to Saudi Arabia report that carrying a bible through customs is forbidden; if you have one it will be confiscated, if you have many I do not know what would happen. I guess that Muslims in Saudi Arabia don't go out of their way to read from the bible. So you may be right. But I have heard Muslims debate scripture on youtube and those who debate seem to be acquainted with the new testament and some with the old testament too. So you may be wrong. It is hard to know from the outside I think. I don't intend to become a Muslim to test the idea.

LivingWordUnity · May 26, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
Friends who have travelled to Saudi Arabia report that carrying a bible through customs is forbidden; if you have one it will be confiscated, if you have many I do not know what would happen. I guess that Muslims in Saudi Arabia don't go out of their way to read from the bible. So you may be right. But I have heard Muslims debate scripture on youtube and those who debate seem to be acquainted with the new testament and some with the old testament too. So you may be wrong. It is hard to know from the outside I think. I don't intend to become a Muslim to test the idea.

Just because they know of a few verses doesn't mean that they are allowed to actually read the books of our Holy Bible. They are probably allowed to know of only select verses for the sole purpose of debating against us.

ebia · May 26, 2015

LivingWordUnity said:
I know that most Jews don't believe it. I said that in the OP. My question is why when the scriptural evidence is so compelling.

Unless you accept as truthful and honest the post resurrction Christian claims about jesus, then why would you connect those quotes to him?

Luke's description of Jesus ascention clearly borrows from Daniel 7 and says "this Jesus is Daniel's 'son of man'". But if you don't accept that Luke is right, then you will reject that claim.

Of course a lot of Jews in Jesus time didn't accept Daniel as canonical anyway.

ebia · May 26, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
Friends who have travelled to Saudi Arabia report that carrying a bible through customs is forbidden;

That may be the case for Saudi.

When I went to Pakistan the advice was to treat the bible with the same reverence that Muslims treat the Koran (for example, not putting it on the floor) lest one cause offense.
I know a number of muslims that have read the bible. I imagine that any instruction not to would be coming from particular schools of though and religious leaders, not universal blanket ban.

ebia · May 26, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
True, they appear to call Isa the messiah; I wonder what meaning that has in their religion because it obviously can't mean to them what it means to Christians (or Jews I presume).

Well, what does it mean.

Most christians take it to mean something like second person of the trinity.

But that isn't what it meant to second temple jews.

ebia · May 26, 2015

LivingWordUnity said:
I believe that Jesus is fully God and fully Man and that He is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. That's why it makes sense to me that Scripture describes Him as the "Son of Man" and King whose dominion is everlasting.

That's (part of) what christians believe about Jesus. But it's not what the word messiah meant in Jesus day.

LivingWordUnity · May 26, 2015

ebia said:
Unless you accept as truthful and honest the post resurrction Christian claims about jesus, then why would you connect those quotes to him?

What reason is there to believe that St. Luke was being dishonest?

LivingWordUnity · May 26, 2015

ebia said:
That's (part of) what christians believe about Jesus. But it's not what the word messiah meant in Jesus day.

Christianity sprang from Judaism. Jesus and all of the Apostles were Jews.

Rhamiel · May 26, 2015

LoAmmi, thank you for showing how the Jews interpret these verses

we should not debate with him in OBOB because he is not free to fully debate back

ebia · May 26, 2015

LivingWordUnity said:
Christianity sprang from Judaism. Jesus and all of the Apostles were Jews.

Indeed. But in the world Jesus was operating in, Messiah did not mean anything divine.

It mean "annointed". Usually the king but occasionally with priestly overtones instead. A king sent by God to sort out the mess. There wasn't a lot of consensus about what that would look like, or even a lot of centrality to the idea in some quarters. But it had no connotations of divine at all to 2nd temple jews. It's after Christians realised the full extent of Jesus's nature that they gradually back-imposed onto the word connotations of divinity.

MoreCoffee · May 26, 2015

To the first Christians Christ (being the Greek word for Messiah) meant what the holy scriptures indicate it meant. Saint Peter said it this way, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

LivingWordUnity · May 26, 2015

ebia said:
Indeed. But in the world Jesus was operating in, Messiah did not mean anything divine.

They didn't realize it because God's plan was veiled in the Old Testament. But Jesus showed through His miracles and teaching that the Messiah is God and that the Messiah is Him.

mark46 · May 26, 2015

dzheremi said:
Yes, but that has nothing to do with their recognizing him as the messiah, which they do.

Please give us a source.

I'll give folks a Muslim source if that is really needed.

Jesus is considered one of the 6 most important prophets by Muslims. They believe in his virgin birth. They believe that he preformed miracles. Some even believe that he was given Scripture by God, some of which is in the NT, which they believe has been mistranslated over time. They do NOT believe that Jesus is the Messiah. They do not believe that Jesus was crucified, although they do believe that Jesus ascended into heaven.

Many think of Islam as a heresy since they believe so much about Jesus, and yet deny that he is God, and deny the Trinity. As most of understand, there were several heresies regarding the nature of Jesus. Muslims considered him fully man.

LivingWordUnity · May 26, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
To the first Christians Christ (being the Greek word for Messiah) meant what the holy scriptures indicate it meant. Saint Peter said it this way, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

And St. Peter was a Jew.

MoreCoffee · May 26, 2015

LivingWordUnity said:
And St. Peter was a Jew who understood that the Messiah meant this.

Yes, and he had a few clues about Jesus. I don't quite get why folk today keep wanting to re-read the new testament as if they were themselves first century Jews. Obviously they are not, and if they are Christians then pretending that we'll understand Jesus better by slipping into a first century Jewish perspective (something that is of necessity imaginary) doesn't seem like a profitable way to spend one's time.

The Conversion of the Jews

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