Focused thread-- Is. 25:6 God will make a feast for all nations--with wine

tall73 · May 26, 2015

The purpose of this thread is narrow. It is intended to look at one verse in the debate over alcohol. This is not a general thread on the use of alcohol, but looking at one specific verse. You can reference other verses in your answer, but please give your take on this verse.

Isa 25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

tall73 · May 26, 2015

The verse pictures a feast for all nations. The menu is fit for a celebration, with the finest food and aged wine.

There are warnings against wine in the Scriptures, but wine was also used during celebrations.

Similarly Jesus felt comfortable making wine for the wedding feast, a happy occasion.

As background, I have mentioned before but I do not drink at all, and do not recommend drinking. However, the Scripture warn against drunkenness not all drinking.

graphuto · May 27, 2015

There's a line of thinking that says the Bible uses the word wine in two different ways :
Fermented, alcoholic grape juice
Non-fermented, non-alcoholic grape juice.

I'm not a huge fan of concordances, but two different Hebrew words are used for wine :
H8492 would seem to suggest non-fermented grape juice, for the most part.
H3196 would seem to suggest fermented, alcoholic grape juice, for the most part, although in 1 or 2 verses, they seem to be inter-changeable?

Tough one!

tall73 · May 27, 2015

graphuto said:
There's a line of thinking that says the Bible uses the word wine in two different ways :
Fermented, alcoholic grape juice
Non-fermented, non-alcoholic grape juice.

I'm not a huge fan of concordances, but two different Hebrew words are used for wine :
H8492 would seem to suggest non-fermented grape juice, for the most part.
H3196 would seem to suggest fermented, alcoholic grape juice, for the most part, although in 1 or 2 verses, they seem to be inter-changeable?

Tough one!

My next focused thread will deal with a text that addresses some of the terms and how they are used. However, in this case the word used is particularly used of wine on its dregs, aged wine. So it is certainly alcoholic. The text here refers to this aged wine because it would be rare for a normal person to have it. Basically it is talking about wine fit for a king. Most common people would not have the resources to age and refine their wine for years. They would be more reliant on immediate sustenance than on eventual luxury.

graphuto · May 27, 2015

The word we're bringing attention to here was used 4 times in the Hebrew : H8105

Moab hath been at ease from his youth, and he hath settled on his lees, H8105 and hath not been emptied from vessel to vessel, neither hath he gone into captivity: therefore his taste remained in him, and his scent is not changed.

And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: H8105 that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.

For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs H8105 thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them.

And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, H8105 of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees H8105 well refined.

Are we sure that we're talking about alcohol here?
It seems that a person can have lees, and it almost seems to be a state of being?

tall73 · May 27, 2015

graphuto said:
The word we're bringing attention to here was used 4 times in the Hebrew : H8105

Moab hath been at ease from his youth, and he hath settled on his lees, H8105 and hath not been emptied from vessel to vessel, neither hath he gone into captivity: therefore his taste remained in him, and his scent is not changed.

And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: H8105 that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.

For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs H8105 thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them.

And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, H8105 of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees H8105 well refined.

Are we sure that we're talking about alcohol here?
It seems that a person can have lees, and it almost seems to be a state of being?

Yes, we are sure we are talking about alcohol here.

a. It is being served at the feast on the menu.

b. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lees_(fermentation)
You can read about the process here.

c. Moab hath been at ease from his youth, and he hath settled on his lees, H8105 and hath not been emptied from vessel to vessel, neither hath he gone into captivity: therefore his taste remained in him, and his scent is not changed.

Moab here is referring to the nation of Moab, hence the captivity reference. The comparison is to the alcohol process. It is speaking of not having been moved from vessel to vessel, ie, not going into captivity. In the usual process they would take the wine from the vessel with the lees and put it in a different container. Note a selection from the Wikipedia article:

Normally the wine is transferred to another container (racking), leaving this sediment behind. Some wines (notably Chardonnay, Champagne and Muscadet) are sometimes aged for a time on the lees (a process known as sur lie), leading to a distinctive yeasty aroma and taste. The lees may be stirred (bâtonage in French) in order to promote uptake of the lees' flavour.

d.And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: H8105 that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.

They have become complacent, again an analogy to the process of wine on the lees.

e. For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs H8105 thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them.

Here the prophet elaborates on the oft referenced analogy of the wine of the wrath of God, and in this case the dregs, or lees, shall be given to the nation. In other words they would experience all the fullness of God's wrath, drinking every part of the wrath of God.

So yes, it is about alcohol, and it is such a familiar concept that it is used as an analogy in the other texts.

now faith · May 28, 2015

Matthew: 9. 17. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

The process of fermentation createsa gas or pressure.

tall73 said:
The purpose of this thread is narrow. It is intended to look at one verse in the debate over alcohol. This is not a general thread on the use of alcohol, but looking at one specific verse. You can reference other verses in your answer, but please give your take on this verse.

Isa 25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

The verse does not represent the foundation of the passage.

The passage is written in a form of writing called a Archetype, a form of literary device.

We can get a better understanding by reading the introduction:

Isaiah: 25. 1. O LORD, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth.

Verse 6 could be read as a metaphor.

tall73 · May 28, 2015

now faith said:
Matthew: 9. 17. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

The process of fermentation createsa gas or pressure.

The verse does not represent the foundation of the passage.

The passage is written in a form of writing called a Archetype, a form of literary device.

We can get a better understanding by reading the introduction:

Isaiah: 25. 1. O LORD, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth.

Verse 6 could be read as a metaphor.

Please do elaborate on the literary device, its usage here, the metaphor you see being formed, the purpose of the verse, etc.

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Focused thread-- Is. 25:6 God will make a feast for all nations--with wine

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