Which denomination....

CelticRebel · May 25, 2015

I would like to get some thoughts and opinions on something, but first some background on me: I have been looking for a church home for quite some time. I grew up Southern Baptist, but by choice and because of some things that happened to me personally, I left that faith by age 20. I briefly became an agnostic but then began to seriously investigate the claims of all the world's religions. I gradually made my way back to Christianity by way of Quakerism and considered myself a Quaker for years, although there was no Quaker church or meeting anywhere close to me. Then, at about age 30, something else happened that made me see that trying to live as an isolated Christian was folly. I then started visiting various churches. I had a very bad experience in a Charismatic church, and I knew that wasn't right for me. Over the next few years, I joined a Baptist church, a United Methodist church, and the Episcopal Church. I never felt at home in any of them. The SBC by that time had become too fundamentalist for me, although I agreed with them on ethical and moral issues, and the UMC and TEC were too liberal on those issues. Also, I have always had a wide variety of doctrinal views, so much so that I don't seem to fit in anywhere -- in any denomination, that is. I thought I would post a list of my views , and see what people here think about which denomination they would best fit into. I did this some years ago on a fundamentalist Baptist forum and got blasted -- not from everybody but from a lot of members there. Anyway, my choices for churches in my area are rather limited, as I live in a rural part of the southern USA. The denominations around here are: Various Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, the UMC, PCUSA, Southern Baptist and independent Baptist, Nazarene, TEC, SDA, RCC. There is a LCMS church about an hour away, also an AMiA (Anglican Mission) about the same distance, and a Free Will Baptist church about an hour in the opposite direction. So, those are my choices. I feel drawn to the Mennonites, but nearest church is over two hours. I would say the denominations I feel most compatible with are moderate Mennonites, Quakers, Anglicans, and Baptists. Seems like there are no moderates anymore but either far right or far left churches and individuals. Also, my views contain some evangelical and "catholic" elements. Here is my list; I wonder if there is any denomination that these fit into, or would even come close to. I seriously want a church home but feel like an outcast, like I really don't belong anywhere, as my views are too varied:

(1) Christus Victor/Recapitulation/Ransom atonement
(2) Infant dedication allowed
(3) Believer's baptism
(4) No "once saved, always saved"
(5) Prefer baptism by immersion, with exceptions
(illness, disability)
(6) No baptismal regeneration
(7) Liberty of conscience
(8) Church-state separation
(9) Religious liberty
(10) Priesthood of the believer
(11) Freedom of Bible interpretation
(12) Voluntary giving -- no denominational assessments
(13) Church owns its property
(14) Absolute equality of members, including
gender equality--any member, male or
female , may serve the church in any
capacity
(14) Prayers for the dead
(15) Candles in worship service
(16) Vestments acceptable (simplicity desired)
(17) Liturgy desirable/acceptable
(18) Open communion--any believer may
partake; water baptism not a
prerequisite
(19) Occasional readings from the Apocrypha
acceptable
(20) No clergy titles such as "Reverend"
(21) Bible, the final external authority, but
use God-given reason and experience in
interpretation of scripture
(22) The Light of Christ in every human being
(23) Jesus Christ, the criterion by which
scripture is interpreted under the
guidance of the Holy Spirit
(24) Lay-administered sacraments allowed

Liberasit · May 25, 2015

I have no advice given that I just go to my local church and make do with its imperfections.

I will pray for you and wish you well in your search for a church home. God bless you.

CelticRebel · May 25, 2015

Liberasit said:
I have no advice given that I just go to my local church and make do with its imperfections.

I will pray for you and wish you well in your search for a church home. God bless you.

Thank you very much.

Obedientiarius · May 25, 2015

Your list of beliefs sound like you'd feel the most at home in an Arminian Baptist church of some variety. Might not be a perfect fit, but I'm not sure such a thing exists.

graceandpeace · May 25, 2015

I can't think of a single church that would teach or agree with all of your points above, so it's likely you will need to compromise on something. The mainline denominations are going to generally give you the most flexibility, as far as tolerating dissent or welcoming other views, even while holding fast to their own tenets. So of your available options, I would suggest TEC, UMC, or PCUSA. TEC of course considers itself the "middle way" between Catholic & Protestant/Reformed.

CelticRebel · May 25, 2015

Obedientiarius said:
Your list of beliefs sound like you'd feel the most at home in an Arminian Baptist church of some variety. Might not be a perfect fit, but I'm not sure such a thing exists.

Thank you very much for your reply. The closest to me would be a Free Will Baptist church, about an hour away. The Free Will Baptist denomination is pretty fundamentalist.

CelticRebel · May 25, 2015

graceandpeace said:
I can't think of a single church that would teach or agree with all of your points above, so it's likely you will need to compromise on something. The mainline denominations are going to generally give you the most flexibility, as far as tolerating dissent or welcoming other views, even while holding fast to their own tenets. So of your available options, I would suggest TEC, UMC, or PCUSA. TEC of course considers itself the "middle way" between Catholic & Protestant/Reformed.

Thank you so much for replying. I would have a problem in these due to their stands on ethical/moral issues. I have a consistent pro-life stance -- opposed to abortion, euthanasia, capital punishment, and I am opposed to homosexual marriage and ordinations. I would have an issue with polity, in that none of them allow the local church to own its property.

But you are right, though, that I will probably need to compromise on something.

Within Anglicanism, the theologian I am most drawn to is F.D. Maurice (long since dead, but modern theologians don't appeal to me much).

Albion · May 25, 2015

CelticRebel said:
I would like to get some thoughts and opinions on something, but first some background on me: I have been looking for a church home for quite some time. I grew up Southern Baptist, but by choice and because of some things that happened to me personally, I left that faith by age 20. I briefly became an agnostic but then began to seriously investigate the claims of all the world's religions. I gradually made my way back to Christianity by way of Quakerism and considered myself a Quaker for years, although there was no Quaker church or meeting anywhere close to me. Then, at about age 30, something else happened that made me see that trying to live as an isolated Christian was folly. I then started visiting various churches. I had a very bad experience in a Charismatic church, and I knew that wasn't right for me. Over the next few years, I joined a Baptist church, a United Methodist church, and the Episcopal Church. I never felt at home in any of them. The SBC by that time had become too fundamentalist for me, although I agreed with them on ethical and moral issues, and the UMC and TEC were too liberal on those issues. Also, I have always had a wide variety of doctrinal views, so much so that I don't seem to fit in anywhere -- in any denomination, that is. I thought I would post a list of my views , and see what people here think about which denomination they would best fit into. I did this some years ago on a fundamentalist Baptist forum and got blasted -- not from everybody but from a lot of members there. Anyway, my choices for churches in my area are rather limited, as I live in a rural part of the southern USA. The denominations around here are: Various Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, the UMC, PCUSA, Southern Baptist and independent Baptist, Nazarene, TEC, SDA, RCC. There is a LCMS church about an hour away, also an AMiA (Anglican Mission) about the same distance, and a Free Will Baptist church about an hour in the opposite direction. So, those are my choices. I feel drawn to the Mennonites, but nearest church is over two hours. I would say the denominations I feel most compatible with are moderate Mennonites, Quakers, Anglicans, and Baptists. Seems like there are no moderates anymore but either far right or far left churches and individuals. Also, my views contain some evangelical and "catholic" elements. Here is my list; I wonder if there is any denomination that these fit into, or would even come close to. I seriously want a church home but feel like an outcast, like I really don't belong anywhere, as my views are too varied:

(1) Christus Victor/Recapitulation/Ransom atonement
(2) Infant dedication allowed
(3) Believer's baptism
(4) No "once saved, always saved"
(5) Prefer baptism by immersion, with exceptions
(illness, disability)
(6) No baptismal regeneration
(7) Liberty of conscience
(8) Church-state separation
(9) Religious liberty
(10) Priesthood of the believer
(11) Freedom of Bible interpretation
(12) Voluntary giving -- no denominational assessments
(13) Church owns its property
(14) Absolute equality of members, including
gender equality--any member, male or
female , may serve the church in any
capacity
(14) Prayers for the dead
(15) Candles in worship service
(16) Vestments acceptable (simplicity desired)
(17) Liturgy desirable/acceptable
(18) Open communion--any believer may
partake; water baptism not a
prerequisite
(19) Occasional readings from the Apocrypha
acceptable
(20) No clergy titles such as "Reverend"
(21) Bible, the final external authority, but
use God-given reason and experience in
interpretation of scripture
(22) The Light of Christ in every human being
(23) Jesus Christ, the criterion by which
scripture is interpreted under the
guidance of the Holy Spirit
(24) Lay-administered sacraments allowed

Sounds most like Free Will Baptist to me or Church of Christ, although you won't get liturgy or vestments.

CelticRebel · May 25, 2015

Albion said:
Sounds most like Free Will Baptist to me or Church of Christ, although you won't get liturgy or vestments.

Thanks!

I couldn't go with Church of Christ, although I do agree with some of their views. I don't agree with their baptism doctrine -- baptismal regeneration or baptism necessary for salvation, or their lack of instrumental music.

The Free Will Baptist denomination is fundamentalist -- penal substitutionary atonement, no women ministers.

I had a Baptist tell me that my views (the list I posted here) were inconsistent and contradictory.

Albion · May 25, 2015

CelticRebel said:
Thanks!

I couldn't go with Church of Christ, although I do agree with some of their views. I don't agree with their baptism doctrine -- baptismal regeneration or baptism necessary for salvation, or their lack of instrumental music.

The Free Will Baptist denomination is fundamentalist -- penal substitutionary atonement, no women ministers.

I had a Baptist tell me that my views (the list I posted here) were inconsistent and contradictory.

I don't think that the Churches of Christ believe in Baptismal Regeneration, although you're right about them considering it to be an obligation of any true believer. As for no instrumental music, that's right also, although the closely related Christian Churches and Churches of Christ do have instrumental music as do the more liberal Disciples of Christ.

As for the Free Will Baptists, I think you've got that right also.

But here's the bottom line. IF you are going to join SOME church that you can reach from your home, none of the others that you mentioned even come close. These do.

CelticRebel · May 25, 2015

Albion said:
I don't think that the Churches of Christ believe in Baptismal Regeneration, although you're right about them considering it to be an obligation of any true believer. As for no instrumental music, that's right also, although the closely related Christian Churches and Churches of Christ do have instrumental music as do the more liberal Disciples of Christ.

As for the Free Will Baptists, I think you've got that right also.

But here's the bottom line. IF you are going to join SOME church that you can reach from your home, none of the others that you mentioned even come close. These do.

The Churches of Christ do believe in a form of baptismal regeneration, and that baptism is necessary for salvation.That is completely opposite to the Baptists. I also wouldn't want to do without instrumental music.

I'm about equal distance form the nearest Free Will Baptist church and AMiA church -- both about an hour. I thought I had made up my mind to go to the AMiA church, but that's a long way to drive, and, also considering my job during the week in which I also have to commute, I probably couldn't go to the AMiA church more than once a month or so. That's not much fellowship, and I couldn't really get involved.

I do really appreciate your replies to me and for trying to help.

Yardstick · May 25, 2015

CelticRebel said:
Various Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, the UMC, PCUSA, Southern Baptist and independent Baptist, Nazarene, TEC, SDA, RCC. There is a LCMS church about an hour away, also an AMiA (Anglican Mission) about the same distance, and a Free Will Baptist church about an hour in the opposite direction. So, those are my choices. I feel drawn to the Mennonites, but nearest church is over two hours. I would say the denominations I feel most compatible with are moderate Mennonites, Quakers, Anglicans, and Baptists. Seems like there are no moderates anymore but either far right or far left churches and individuals. Also, my views contain some evangelical and "catholic" elements. Here is my list; I wonder if there is any denomination that these fit into, or would even come close to. I seriously want a church home but feel like an outcast, like I really don't belong anywhere, as my views are too varied:

(1) Christus Victor/Recapitulation/Ransom atonement
(2) Infant dedication allowed
(3) Believer's baptism
(4) No "once saved, always saved"
(5) Prefer baptism by immersion, with exceptions
(illness, disability)
(6) No baptismal regeneration
(7) Liberty of conscience
(8) Church-state separation
(9) Religious liberty
(10) Priesthood of the believer
(11) Freedom of Bible interpretation
(12) Voluntary giving -- no denominational assessments
(13) Church owns its property
(14) Absolute equality of members, including
gender equality--any member, male or
female , may serve the church in any
capacity
(14) Prayers for the dead
(15) Candles in worship service
(16) Vestments acceptable (simplicity desired)
(17) Liturgy desirable/acceptable
(18) Open communion--any believer may
partake; water baptism not a
prerequisite
(19) Occasional readings from the Apocrypha
acceptable
(20) No clergy titles such as "Reverend"
(21) Bible, the final external authority, but
use God-given reason and experience in
interpretation of scripture
(22) The Light of Christ in every human being
(23) Jesus Christ, the criterion by which
scripture is interpreted under the
guidance of the Holy Spirit
(24) Lay-administered sacraments allowed

(1) Most western churches will preach some combination of all the atonement theories, going to depend on the preacher and culture of the denomination on which is emphasized though.
(2) & (3) Are going to be a church that comes out of the anabaptist or baptist tradition: Pentecostal, Charismatic, Baptists, SDA
(4) Some Baptists, the mainline protestants, RCC would all fit this one.
(5) and (6) Pentecostals, Charismatics, Baptists, SDA I think all fit for these two
(7) Certainly the mainline protestants for this one. I think pretty much everyone but fundamentalists (including SDA) and RCC fit this one.
(8) Baptists would be the big one for this. But it seems to me most churches at least attempt to hold to this in America.
(9) Pretty much all of them?
(10) All the protestants would pretty well fit this. Some of the mainline might feel too clerical for you though?
(11) I think all but fundamentalists would be fine
(12) Who does this?
(13) Your looking at more congregationalists here: certainly the baptists would fit
(14a) Some baptists, all the mainline
(14b) Some of the mainline and Rome for this one.
(15)(16) & (17) This is going to be mainline protestants and RCC.
(18) Some of the mainline I think, probably baptists?
(19) The mainline
(20) I think this is pretty standard for all western churches with ordained clergy. Even if they don't go by "The Reverend so and so".
(21) The mainline would fit, probably more liberal minded baptists.
(22) Not sure what this means
(23) I think pretty much any Christian church would fit this?
(24) I think this would work with baptists and those coming out of that tradition

So looking over the list, a non-fundamentalist baptist looks like the best fit for you considering what is available in your area.

CelticRebel · May 25, 2015

Yardstick said:
(1) Most western churches will preach some combination of all the atonement theories, going to depend on the preacher and culture of the denomination on which is emphasized though.
(2) & (3) Are going to be a church that comes out of the anabaptist or baptist tradition: Pentecostal, Charismatic, Baptists, SDA
(4) Some Baptists, the mainline protestants, RCC would all fit this one.
(5) and (6) Pentecostals, Charismatics, Baptists, SDA I think all fit for these two
(7) Certainly the mainline protestants for this one. I think pretty much everyone but fundamentalists (including SDA) and RCC fit this one.
(8) Baptists would be the big one for this. But it seems to me most churches at least attempt to hold to this in America.
(9) Pretty much all of them?
(10) All the protestants would pretty well fit this. Some of the mainline might feel too clerical for you though?
(11) I think all but fundamentalists would be fine
(12) Who does this?
(13) Your looking at more congregationalists here: certainly the baptists would fit
(14a) Some baptists, all the mainline
(14b) Some of the mainline and Rome for this one.
(15)(16) & (17) This is going to be mainline protestants and RCC.
(18) Some of the mainline I think, probably baptists?
(19) The mainline
(20) I think this is pretty standard for all western churches with ordained clergy. Even if they don't go by "The Reverend so and so".
(21) The mainline would fit, probably more liberal minded baptists.
(22) Not sure what this means
(23) I think pretty much any Christian church would fit this?
(24) I think this would work with baptists and those coming out of that tradition

So looking over the list, a non-fundamentalist baptist looks like the best fit for you considering what is available in your area.

Thank you for going over each point.

Unfortunately, there are not any non-fundamentalist Baptists near me.

CelticRebel · May 25, 2015

It's ki8nd of funny. On that fundamentalist Baptism forum I was on, they told me I was Anglican, not Baptist. On here, it seems there is a consensus forming that I'm Baptist.

Albion · May 26, 2015

CelticRebel said:
The Churches of Christ do believe in a form of baptismal regeneration, and that baptism is necessary for salvation. That is completely opposite to the Baptists.

Yes, I agree, although I wasn't certain of the Baptismal Regeneration issue in the Cs of C.

I also wouldn't want to do without instrumental music.

Yes, I understand that. However, you have already established that you don't have a range of choices available to you that will meet all your preferences, so which area would be the most promising if you are forced to make a compromise somewhere? I think that's what has to be asked.

I would think doing without instrumental music would be more palatable--if nevertheless still a sacrifice--than trying to be, say, an Anglican/Episcopalian or Lutheran, while differing substantially and fundamentally with that denomination on something as important as the nature and observance of the Sacraments! You really couldn't do it in good conscience, anyway. And there are several other points you itemized that don't fit, even though some others do.

I do really appreciate your replies to me and for trying to help.

I've enjoyed it and hope it's been of some value to you.

Albion · May 26, 2015

CelticRebel said:
It's ki8nd of funny. On that fundamentalist Baptism forum I was on, they told me I was Anglican, not Baptist. On here, it seems there is a consensus forming that I'm Baptist.

I'd be interested to know what formed their opinion for them, considering that about half of your listed points are clearly unlike Anglican practice or belief. I suspect that they zoned in on the non-essentials that cause that famous "like the Catholics" knee-jerk response that some people give--like "vestments" or "liturgy," i.e. any ritual.

CelticRebel · May 26, 2015

Albion said:
I'd be interested to know what formed their opinion for them, considering that about half of your listed points are clearly unlike Anglican practice or belief. I suspect that they zoned in on the non-essentials that cause that famous "like the Catholics" knee-jerk response that some people give--like "vestments" or "liturgy," i.e. any ritual.

Some of my views that I didn't list, such as on hell; then prayers for the dead; believing that scripture, reason, tradition, and experience are sources of authority; probably some others that I can't think of right now.

I wanted to ask you something: When I first came to these forums, and I posted on that old thread about looking for non-sacrificial doctrine, and you and I got into a discussion similar to this one, you said then that you thought an Anglican church would be the best fit for me. What has changed your mind? The list I posted?

CelticRebel · May 26, 2015

Albion said:
Yes, I agree, although I wasn't certain of the Baptismal Regeneration issue in the Cs of C.

Yes, I understand that. However, you have already established that you don't have a range of choices available to you that will meet all your preferences, so which area would be the most promising if you are forced to make a compromise somewhere? I think that's what has to be asked.

I would think doing without instrumental music would be more palatable--if nevertheless still a sacrifice--than trying to be, say, an Anglican/Episcopalian or Lutheran, while differing substantially and fundamentally with that denomination on something as important as the nature and observance of the Sacraments! You really couldn't do it in good conscience, anyway. And there are several other points you itemized that don't fit, even though some others do.

I've enjoyed it and hope it's been of some value to you.

Could you point out what those items are?

I know I could fit better in the Anglican churches that I could in Church of Christ because in the CoC, there is only one view of baptism permitted, and I absolutely can't believe the way they do.

Yes, I'll be forced to compromise, I know. I'm just not sure where those compromises will be. I am very much committed to women in ministry. The CoC is even more adamantly opposed to that than the SBC. I am very much opposed to penal substitution and OSAS, and yet the SBC churches firmly uphold these.

It seems like that with every church close enough for me to drive to, that there are a few deal breakers with each church that would prevent me from being a part of them.

That's why I liked the Anglican Communion; I thought it might be sufficiently comprehensive to contain someone such as I.

Liberasit · May 26, 2015

I was overwhelmed by this list when I replied yesterday, but inspired by Yardstick, I thought I'd give it a go.

(1) Christus Victor/Recapitulation/Ransom atonement

In my fellowship, we go along with penal substitution, but other Anglican churches prefer the other theories you listed.

(2) Infant dedication allowed

We have a rite called Thanksgiving which thanks God for the safe birth or the adoption of a child. It expresses hope that the child will bring themselves to Baptism and Confirmation.

(3) Believer's baptism

We have a rite for adult baptism. My youngest daughter chose this a few weeks ago.

(4) No "once saved, always saved"

I like to steer clear of these pithy statements. They need more words to express what is meant.

(5) Prefer baptism by immersion, with exceptions
(illness, disability)

We have a baptistry (coffin-shaped tank) in our chancel that is used for adult baptisms. We have a traditional octagonal font for infants.

(6) No baptismal regeneration

We believe that baptismal regeneration must always be preceded by faith.

(7) Liberty of conscience

Not sure if this has a specific meaning, but I'd say probably. We are all free to believe what we want, and are not commanded to believe anything.

(8) Church-state separation

Not here in the UK, but I like it like that. i believe the church, or at minimum Christian values, should be at the heart of government.

(9) Religious liberty
(10) Priesthood of the believer
(11) Freedom of Bible interpretation

yes, yes, yes

(12) Voluntary giving -- no denominational assessments

yes, but with a strong emphasis in examining your finances, widow's mite etc. Encouragement to consider taxation when giving.

(13) Church owns its property

About church and vicarage are owned by the diocese. All of our other buildings throughout the town are owned by the PCC.

(14) Absolute equality of members, including
gender equality--any member, male or
female , may serve the church in any
capacity

Some of our positions are licensed by the bishop so dependent on education and training. Our patron will only present male candidates for incumbency, but we are free to do what we want beyond that.

(14) Prayers for the dead

No

(15) Candles in worship service

Only for Carols by Candlelight.

(16) Vestments acceptable (simplicity desired)

Mostly just dog collar. Sometimes cassock/alb/stole.

(17) Liturgy desirable/acceptable

Yes - different amounts depending on the service.

(18) Open communion--any believer may
partake; water baptism not a
prerequisite

Anyone who would normally partake in their home church.

(19) Occasional readings from the Apocrypha
acceptable

We just use the 66 books.

(20) No clergy titles such as "Reverend"

We use first names (no father). They are Revs but that is a formality.

(21) Bible, the final external authority, but
use God-given reason and experience in
interpretation of scripture
(22) The Light of Christ in every human being
(23) Jesus Christ, the criterion by which
scripture is interpreted under the
guidance of the Holy Spirit

absolutely

(24) Lay-administered sacraments allowed

We don't, but would have no objections to a midwife baptism.

CelticRebel · May 26, 2015

Liberasit said:
I was overwhelmed by this list when I replied yesterday, but inspired by Yardstick, I thought I'd give it a go.

In my fellowship, we go along with penal substitution, but other Anglican churches prefer the other theories you listed.

We have a rite called Thanksgiving which thanks God for the safe birth or the adoption of a child. It expresses hope that the child will bring themselves to Baptism and Confirmation.

We have a rite for adult baptism. My youngest daughter chose this a few weeks ago.

I like to steer clear of these pithy statements. They need more words to express what is meant.

We have a baptistry (coffin-shaped tank) in our chancel that is used for adult baptisms. We have a traditional octagonal font for infants.

We believe that baptismal regeneration must always be preceded by faith.

Not sure if this has a specific meaning, but I'd say probably. We are all free to believe what we want, and are not commanded to believe anything.

Not here in the UK, but I like it like that. i believe the church, or at minimum Christian values, should be at the heart of government.

yes, yes, yes

yes, but with a strong emphasis in examining your finances, widow's mite etc. Encouragement to consider taxation when giving.

About church and vicarage are owned by the diocese. All of our other buildings throughout the town are owned by the PCC.

Some of our positions are licensed by the bishop so dependent on education and training. Our patron will only present male candidates for incumbency, but we are free to do what we want beyond that.

No

Only for Carols by Candlelight.

Mostly just dog collar. Sometimes cassock/alb/stole.

Yes - different amounts depending on the service.

Anyone who would normally partake in their home church.

We just use the 66 books.

We use first names (no father). They are Revs but that is a formality.

absolutely

We don't, but would have no objections to a midwife baptism.

Thank you so much for the detailed response. Sounds like I would fit in your church -- for the most part!

Which denomination....

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