Anything But...

Why is Ephraim is said to be his first born? Well that seems to me because menassah was the first born of Joseph, and in those days the birthright would go to the first born. That being said when Jacob blessed Ephraim and menassah, Jacob set the birthright to the youngest ephraim. God set Ephraim before menassah.

This has created a lot of debate if Brittain is ephraim and the US menassah. I tend to hold that Ephraim is the US and menassah is brittain. This stance tends to go against tradition though.

What do you mean by annilation of the northern kingdom?

Northern kingdom destroyed at the hands of the Assyrians.

Ephraim is repeatedly pictured as that which multiplies from Israel, overflows it, becomes a multitude of nations, gores all nations to the ends of the earth.

Zechariah 11 has an astonishing pronouncement that God is annulling the brotherhood, the familial bond, between Judah and Ephraim.

I suggest (I am actually quite sure) that Ephraim is the OT's way of describing the growth of Israel into the gentile peoples. This neatly explains how Ephraim is the first-born -- it is the first born into the new covenant. It also explains prophecy's like Micah 5 which say Judah shall return to Israel in the latter days. It also explains why Paul sees the Gentiles as grafted in: they are grafted into Israel as Ephraim. That is, God annihilated ancient Jewish Ephraim, so that the gentiles could be grafted in as the new Ephraim under the new covenant.

There is a lot of OT prophecy which supports this, and even more that only makes sense if it is true.

Thus, Ephraim is not restricted to the US or England, but it certainly includes them.

"This has created a lot of debate if Brittain is ephraim and the US menassah. I tend to hold that Ephraim is the US and menassah is brittain. This stance tends to go against tradition though"


I see that you are tending the BI [British/Israel] anglo/saxon ideas of Herbert W. Armstrong and the spin offs of his WWGC

Herbert was very wrong about his theology and there is no truth in it .... the "anglo saxons" are not the 10 lost tribes of Israel

If you want more details as to why, ask me and I will show you

It is not so much the error and misrepresentation of the 10 tribes that many of the movement have been lead to believe, but there are attachments held by the same that could be detrimental

Straightshot said:

"This has created a lot of debate if Brittain is ephraim and the US menassah. I tend to hold that Ephraim is the US and menassah is brittain. This stance tends to go against tradition though"


I see that you are tending the BI [British/Israel] anglo/saxon ideas of Herbert W. Armstrong and the spin offs of his WWGC

Herbert was very wrong about his theology and there is no truth in it .... the "anglo saxons" are not the 10 lost tribes of Israel

If you want more details as to why, ask me and I will show you

It is not so much the error and misrepresentation of the 10 tribes that many of the movement have been lead to believe, but there are attachments held by the same that could be detrimental

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I'm always open to hear or read other views

The British Israel ranks are full of cranks. But they have noticed an important theme in scripture -- even though their explanation is wrong. There is, however, a rational explanation. And a rational explanation is required for matters such as Jeremiah 31:9.

With weeping they shall come,
and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back,
I will make them walk by brooks of water,
in a straight path in which they shall not stumble,
for I am a father to Israel,
and Ephraim is my firstborn.

This statement by God is:
1. pronounced as if it is of great importance.
2. historically false.

The student of prophecy needs to find a way in which the statement is both significant and true.

"I'm always open to hear or read other views"


Just stick to the study of you Bible and rely upon the Lord to guide you into all truth

The BI theology is false ..... the white race of Great Britain and the USA are not the 10 lost tribes of Israel

This is a white supremacist ruse

HWA claimed to be the last prophet of God and he predicted that Hitler and Mussolini were the beast and the false prophet of Revelation

And David's throne was not moved to England

Straightshot is right: there are a bunch of yahoos that latch on to this and turn it into something dark and stupid. But there is something there, and you just need to pull together all the scriptural threads to see what is really there -- and it isn't dark or stupid.

Doesn't the blessing to Ephraim over manasseh have the same implicatiins as the blessing of Jacob over Esau which is explained by Paul as the way of grace & truth over the way of mosauc covt law in Gal 6?

Ephraim would be also included with the people of Samaria and aasyria in such places as Is 7-10 and thus would be amoþg those divorced and considered NOT the people of God by the law promoting tribes of Judah. It would be there outside of the way and land of the law that they would be called the people of God at the time of appoi.ting Christ (way of grace & truth) as their one head in Hosea 1.

ThatTrueLight said:

And of course let's not forget the simple truth of John's gospel.. how that the Spirit had not yet been given... and how that the LORD told His disciples that it was good that He was going back to the Father.. who would send the promise of the SPIRIT..

Bible 101 here and I understand that it's ANYTHING BUT.

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As I said, you missed what Pentecost is about. All you understand is it was the Holy Spirit being given, like that validates your point. It doesn't!

gospelfer said:

Straightshot is right: there are a bunch of yahoos that latch on to this and turn it into something dark and stupid. But there is something there, and you just need to pull together all the scriptural threads to see what is really there -- and it isn't dark or stupid.

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I'm fully aware of the crazy people who search out these things and go to the extreme and abuse it. Im no christian identity person or anything. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water. If they are as the sand of the sea then they have to be somewhere today and nor just dwelling in little huts in a remote jungle

There are Israelites in Britain and the USA today, but distinctly so .... normally identified as "Jews"

Isaiah
11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

The false teaching of BI still held by the spin offs of Armstrong's WWCG is suspect and I would suggest that you check it out .... and you have a Bible that you can read and understand for yourself

Herbert was a false prophet by the record and you are not to follow false prophets

I know that some of the splinter groups try to cover up the root of their historical leader, and some of the same have even gone further off of the road .... just be careful of what you follow

Study yourself approved .... this is possible and it will protect you from false teachers [2 Timothy 2:1-16]

Notrash said:

Doesn't the blessing to Ephraim over manasseh have the same implicatiins as the blessing of Jacob over Esau which is explained by Paul as the way of grace & truth over the way of mosauc covt law in Gal 6?

Ephraim would be also included with the people of Samaria and aasyria in such places as Is 7-10 and thus would be amoþg those divorced and considered NOT the people of God by the law promoting tribes of Judah. It would be there outside of the way and land of the law that they would be called the people of God at the time of appoi.ting Christ (way of grace & truth) as their one head in Hosea 1.

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This should be; as Paul explained in Gal 4:21-31 & Rom 9:8-16; saying, as prophecied in Gen 25 aying the elder shall serve the younger.

The way of grace through faith is blessed over and served in antithesis by the way of the law. IGrace & blessing by faith (belief) was the second way chronologically from the time of the law of moses though it was prophecied and confirmed before the law through the patriarchs.

Is 11:1-10 refers to Christ and the first century and 11ff refes to the regathering from the tribes of Ephraim, Samaria etc after 70 AD till 132/135 AD. His hand was not lowered yet refers to the judgement against Egypt when Moses held up his hands while the Egyptians pursued the Israelites. This was a foreshadow of the pursuit of the ways of religious law after the freed living in grace.

ThatTrueLight said:

Why can't Israel be Israel like in the bible?

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Because in the Bible Israel isn't Israel.

It is clear that scripture uses the word with several different senses. Any minimally perceptive reader of scripture must be aware of this.

clemenslee said:

I'm fully aware of the crazy people who search out these things and go to the extreme and abuse it. Im no christian identity person or anything. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water. If they are as the sand of the sea then they have to be somewhere today and nor just dwelling in little huts in a remote jungle

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Exactly! There is a baby in the bathwater. When I first read the OT seriously for the first time about 5 years ago (I was an agnostic), three things became clear on the first pass through:
1. The high-level prophetic story of Jewish history was way closer to actual history than luck would allow.
2. The suffering servant theme was way stronger than I expected, and looked far more like Christ than I expected.
3. There was something really odd going on with scripture's use of Ephraim.

Verses like Jeremiah 31:9 exist to make our minds do a somersault. It should cause us to track down every little thing scripture says about Ephraim so that we can figure out what is going on. But, in fact, most people shrug their shoulders and move on (assuming they even notice anything odd about God's pronouncement). We humans, religious people in particular, are very good at ignoring the new and strange in favor of the old and explained.

ThatTrueLight said:

I think that it's safe to say that most of Christianity accepts Pentecost as being when the Father did send the promised Comforter which Jesus Himself told them to wait for there in Jerusalem. You're welcome to add to this wondrous biblical truth.

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Who denies that? I don't add anything to Pentecost...but I did refer you to the feast itself in Leviticus 23. You don't see what MORE Pentecost was about!

ThatTrueLight said:

For example...

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I was making a point about word meanings. "Israel" has a minimum of 6 meanings. God expects us (especially those who claim to have knowledge) to be able to distinguish the various ways in which he uses it.