Israel is the Church or Israel and the Church

Open Heart

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I am inclined to think that is any Earthly temple were rebuilt and sacrifices offered in it then it would be a blasphemy and not a remembrance of the costly sacrifice of Christ. The scriptures warn that an antichrist will sit in the Earthly temple and proclaim himself to be God (2Thess 2:4). That warning was not given as idle words. The rebuilding of an Earthly temple would be a warning to all christians that something very wicked is at work. It would not be a blessing to anybody, least of all to the faithful in Christ Jesus.
I don't think the rebuilding of the temple has anything to do with the last days.

BTW you realize I'm sure that the Ceasars of Paul's day all claimed to be God? (I'm a partial preterist.)
 
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I don't think the rebuilding of the temple has anything to do with the last days.

BTW you realize I'm sure that the Ceasars of Paul's day all claimed to be God? (I'm a partial preterist.)
In that case you ought not to think that any Earthly temple of any kind has any significance for Christians and if one were rebuilt in Jerusalem it would mean nothing at all. And any theory which posits that rabbinic Judaism or natural descent from Jacob means one is among the chosen people of God is an obvious falsehood because the promised seed is clearly stated to be the Lord Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:15-18) and those who are in him by baptism (Romans 6:1-7).
 
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Open Heart

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And any theory which posits that rabbinic Judaism or natural descent from Jacob means one is among the chosen people of God is an obvious falsehood
As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.(Romans 11:28,29)
 
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As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.(Romans 11:28,29)
Yes and amen to the words of saint Paul in Romans 11:28,29 and yes and amen to the words of saint Paul in Romans 9:6 "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel." and to saint Paul's words in Romans 11:5 "at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace." It is the remnant of the natural descendants of Jacob who are a part of the Israel who are remembered for the sake of their forefathers but of the rest it is said "The others were hardened, as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." " (Romans 11:7,8). And it is also said "David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever." ".

The teaching of saint Paul in Romans chapter eleven is that the remnant of Israel are to be saved by placing their faith in Jesus the Messiah.

So we see that natural descent counts for nothing. Circumcision counts for nothing. It is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that brings one to God and to eternal Life. As saint Paul teaches elsewhere in his letters to the churches.
 
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Open Heart

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The teaching of saint Paul in Romans chapter eleven is that the remnant of Israel are to be saved by placing their faith in Jesus the Messiah.
Paul ALSO says in Romans 11 that "ALL Israel shall be saved."
 
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Paul ALSO says in Romans 11 that "ALL Israel shall be saved."
Amen to Romans 11:26 from which your post quotes. It is good to read the preceding verse and so get a better understanding of the meaning of "all Israel" in verse 26. The passage says "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." " Saint Paul then goes on to say "As regards the gospel, they are enemies, but for your sake; but as regards those who are God's choice, they are still well loved for the sake of their ancestors." So let us not be blind to the present reality that "As regards the gospel, they are enemies" and this is said of the natural descendants who reject the gospel of Jesus the Messiah, yet of the remnant it is said "but as regards those who are God's choice, they are still well loved for the sake of their ancestors." The matter that differentiates between the remnant and the others is that the others "are disobedient now" when the remnant turns to God then because of "the mercy shown to you [Gentiles] they too will receive mercy."
 
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Open Heart

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"As regards the gospel, they are enemies, but for your sake; but as regards those who are God's choice, they are still well loved for the sake of their ancestors."
I just want to make sure that we are on the same page here. It is right after this verse that Paul says All Israel shall be saved. So it is the enemies of the gospel who will be saved.
 
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I just want to make sure that we are on the same page here. It is right after this verse that Paul says All Israel shall be saved. So it is the enemies of the gospel who will be saved.
No, it is not the enemies of the gospel who will be saved but those who turn to Jesus as Messiah in faith who receive mercy and so are saved. The enemies of the gospel are the ones described under the curses "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." and "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever." from Romans 11:7,8. If the enemies turn in repentance to receive Jesus as Messiah then they will receive mercy and so be saved but if they remain in their rebellion the curses will apply and salvation is not what they will receive.
 
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Open Heart

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No, it is not the enemies of the gospel who will be saved but those who turn to Jesus as Messiah in faith who receive mercy and so are saved.
We'll have to disagree then. To me it is crystal clear from context (that "all israel shall be saved" immedately follows the "enemies of the gospel" verse) that it is the enemies who will be saved, according to Paul.
 
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We'll have to disagree then. To me it is crystal clear from context (that "all israel shall be saved" immedately follows the "enemies of the gospel" verse) that it is the enemies who will be saved, according to Paul.
Do you believe that those who are enemies of the gospel of Jesus Christ will be saved?

Was ancient Israel's history for nothing? When they were about to enter the promised Land God spoke blessings to those who obeyed the book of the Law and curses on those who disobeyed. He predicted exile for them. And they were exiled; first the northern ten tribes were taken by the Assyrians and as far as scripture is concerned they did not return to their land to build their nation again - it was left to the Samaritans - then came the exile of Judah and the other tribes that were part of the kingdom of Judah by the Babylonians and they did not return for the seventy years that were Prophesied by Jeremiah.

It was when they repented (see Daniel's prayer) that they returned.

And when the Jews (except for those who became Christians) rejected Messiah they were exiled again by the Romans.

Without repentance there can be no mercy just as there is no mercy to the Gentiles without repentance. Being a natural descendant of Jacob does not entitle anybody to mercy without repentance.

So let's look more carefully at the passage in question and see if anybody who is an enemy and does not repent is promised salvation or not.

I want you to be quite certain, brothers, of this mystery, to save you from congratulating yourselves on your own good sense: part of Israel had its mind hardened, but only until the gentiles have wholly come in; and this is how all Israel will be saved. As scripture says: From Zion will come the Redeemer, he will remove godlessness from Jacob. And this will be my covenant with them, when I take their sins away. As regards the gospel, they are enemies, but for your sake; but as regards those who are God's choice, they are still well loved for the sake of their ancestors. There is no change of mind on God's part about the gifts he has made or of his choice. Just as you were in the past disobedient to God but now you have been shown mercy, through their disobedience; so in the same way they are disobedient now, so that through the mercy shown to you they too will receive mercy. God has imprisoned all human beings in their own disobedience only to show mercy to them all. (Romans 11:25-32)
It is not by disobedience that anybody, Jew or Gentile, is shown mercy but through repentance and faith. The passage is speaking of the conversion of saint Paul's countrymen (the Jews) when they come to receive Messiah in repentance and faith. Let's not corrupt the gospel by imagining that some will be saved because of their disobedience and while they remain enemies of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
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Open Heart

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Do you believe that those who are enemies of the gospel of Jesus Christ will be saved?
First, I appreciate all that you wrote. Very thoughtful.

Yes, I believe it because I believe Paul, who says it point blank.
 
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First, I appreciate all that you wrote. Very thoughtful.

Yes, I believe it because I believe Paul, who says it point blank.
Jesus our Lord says the opposite point blank. He said, "In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit" and he also said, "No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God's only Son." (John 3:5, 18) One cannot claim that an unbelieving person even if he/she is of Jewish descent is saved and will receive mercy when the Lord himself - and he is the judge - says that whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God's only Son.

No matter what theory one wants to affirm it cannot be true when it makes the the words of Jesus Christ our Lord false.
 
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Open Heart

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Jesus our Lord says the opposite point blank. He said, "In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit" and he also said, "No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God's only Son." One cannot claim that an unbelieving person even if he/she is of Jewish descent is saved and will receive mercy when the Lord himself - and he is the judge - says that whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God's only Son.

No matter what theory one wants to affirm it cannot be true when it makes the the words of Jesus Christ our Lord false.
This is truthfully the rule. Jews are the exception to the rule, according to Paul.
 
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This is truthfully the rule. Jews are the exception to the rule, according to Paul.
Jesus spoke those words to Nicodemus, the teacher of Israel, he was not an exception nor are any others who were Jews at that time nor in our time. (John 3:16-21)
For so God loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. For God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but so that through him the world might be saved. No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God's only Son. And the judgement is this: though the light has come into the world people have preferred darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, to prevent his actions from being shown up; but whoever does the truth comes out into the light, so that what he is doing may plainly appear as done in God.'
(John 3:16-21)
Let's not make the gospels less true than some interpretation of saint Paul's letter to the Romans; it was precisely that mistake in exegesis that led Martin Luther to incorrectly identify "Faith ALONE" as the sole foundation for personal salvation from sins and hell.
 
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ContraMundum

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There is more to it than that. Even if there were a temple - and some people do wish to rebuild it and it may be that it will be rebuilt some time in the future - nobody could offer sacrifices in it that would please God because the one sacrifice for sins has already been made and offered to God on the cross which sacrifice cleanses from all their sins those who place their faith in Jesus the Messiah. As the scriptures say and as saint Paul reiterates there is salvation in Christ alone because he is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world but the sacrifices of animals in the temple can avail no one any more.

Yep. God offers His Son, so we in turn want to offer Him a goat?
 
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Cappadocious

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You don't use the Byzantine Rite????? But your Icon says Eastern orthodox. I've never heard of the Damascene Rite. I have his works right here on my desk (lookin' right at 'em) and I don't see him penning a Rite for Churches to use for Easter. I've just checked.
Most of the Easter canon is authored by St. John of Damascus. The base for the liturgy on Easter and Holy Week is the Liturgy of St. Basil the Great. In many Orthodox churches, the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is commonly used throughout the rest of the year.

The Byzantine Rite is not identical with the use of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

Schaff will probably be of no help.
Anyway, here's a link. Details in the footnotes.
Fair enough. I'm not alright with the call for vengeance on the Jews (or on the Babylonians, or anyone else, for that matter). Thing is, there's a call for vengeance on some people in Revelation, and I'm not alright with that, either. So it's a bit of a problem.
 
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Cappadocious

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Two different historical accounts are being given here:

A. After the fall of Jerusalem, Judaism coalesced into roughly three groups: Proto-Rabbinic Jews, Christian Jews, and various fringe Hellenistic Jewish sects in Persia, Egypt and Arabia.

The Proto-Rabbinic Jews and the Christian Jews made some mutually-exclusive claims, like:

1. To have the true feasts.
2. To have the true worship in general.
3. To preserve the Jewish faith rightly interpreted.

A significant amount of Christian Jewish tradition persisted even after Gentile converts altered the Church’s demographics; thus, claims 1-3 persisted.

B. After the fall of Jerusalem, Judaism coalesced into proto-Rabbinic Judaism, with the minor Christian Jewish tradition being gradually eroded and erased with the influx of Gentile converts (and probably something about the 19th century “Constantinian Shift” hypothesis) over the course of about four centuries. The Proto-Rabbinic Jews and the Christian Jews, then, had only one of the three exclusive claims mentioned above:

1. To have the true worship in general.


I think that the Eastern Theology and Ecclesiology reject (B) and implicitly accept (A), whereas (B) is more compatible with the Western tradition. I’m not going to get deeply into the historical debate in this post, but I will offer one reason to think this is the case: We have reason to believe that the Sabbath was kept in most of the Eastern Churches, while it was not kept at Rome, from a citation of Sozomenus from the 5th Century:

“Assemblies are not held in all churches on the same time or manner. The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the First Day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria (there are several cities and villages in Egypt where, contrary to the usage established elsewhere, the people meet together on Sabbath evenings, and, although they have dined previously, partake of the mysteries.)”

This would also explain (causally, not morally) why the East was more hostile to Rabbinic Judaism: It was making a bunch of claims that infringed on those of the Eastern Churches, whereas in the West this might not have been the perception.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I am inclined to think that if any Earthly temple were rebuilt and sacrifices offered in it then it would be a blasphemy and not a remembrance of the costly sacrifice of Christ. The scriptures warn that an antichrist will sit in the Earthly temple and proclaim himself to be God (2Thess 2:4). That warning was not given as idle words. The rebuilding of an Earthly temple would be a warning to all christians that something very wicked is at work. It would not be a blessing to anybody, least of all to the faithful in Christ Jesus.

As most any practicing Jew would tell you, not all offerings were for the same thing. Scripture, in Torah, mentions many different kinds of sacrifices and offerings for different reasons.

In the Acts of the Apostles we see that Paul, for the sake of peace, entered into the Nazarite Vow along with other Jewish believers from Jerusalem, at the end of which--as proscribed by Torah--an offering was made at the Temple. I think it would be quite erroneous to accuse St. Paul here of blasphemy.

Though I would agree with you that if a temple were ever built in Jerusalem it wouldn't have any theological or religious significance for Christianity. But in the 1st century it seems fairly clear that many Jewish Christians continued to observe matters of Jewish observance, including attending Synagogue on the Sabbath (specifically Christian worship took place the day after the Sabbath and included Jewish and Gentile believers) as well as visiting the Temple for worship.

I don't believe Jewish Christians are any more beholden to observe the mitzvot of Torah than Gentile Christians, since what is in Christ is the fullness of what had been given in ancient times and looked forward to Christ; but I wouldn't argue that such things in and of themselves are wrong. St. Paul preached liberty of conscience on these matters.

Briefly: I think our position(s) ought to be more nuanced than hardline on these matters.

I cannot imagine that, should a temple be rebuilt, that Christians would be remotely welcome. The rabbis and Jewish sages are pretty clear about how they define who is and who isn't a Jew, a Jewish believer in Jesus is by Jewish definition a non-Jew. Further, I would like to think that no Christian would desire to participate in hypothetical rites of a hypothetical rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. As where I would agree with you is that it would be inappropriate now. Though I feel that a hardline position that it is, as is, blasphemous too strong or too rigid, for the reasons I've already outlined earlier. Obviously St. Paul and other early Jewish Christians were not engaging in blasphemous practice. I would say, however, that with the cessation of the temple in 70 AD and the rather clean break between Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity by the end of the 1st century we have a very different situation today than in those earliest years of the Church. And that needs to be taken into consideration.

So a Christian would really have no good reason to attempt to participate in the rites of a future Jewish temple in Jerusalem; though in the 1st century the situation was different and it would be an error on our part to judge St. Paul and others for their continued engagement with historic Jewish religious tradition and worship.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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hedrick

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The teaching of saint Paul in Romans chapter eleven is that the remnant of Israel are to be saved by placing their faith in Jesus the Messiah.

So we see that natural descent counts for nothing. Circumcision counts for nothing. It is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that brings one to God and to eternal Life. As saint Paul teaches elsewhere in his letters to the churches.

I think you’re reading things into the text that aren’t there. Paul says “so they have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy.” The same people who have been disobedient are those who receive mercy. I think Paul is clear that the covenant with the Jewish people continues, and that everyone, not just a remnant, will be saved.

He also does not envision any way of salvation other than Christ. He believes that those who don’t have faith have been temporarily removed from Israel.

I don’t think he clearly reconciles those two statements. I can see ways to do it. But I don’t think we should take the easy way out and say that he is only speaking of a remnant, or that the all in Rom 11:32 doesn’t actually mean all.
 
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