I took the liberty of adding my perspective to Chriliman's thoughnt experiments.
Chriliman
Is God Real?: A Thought Experiment.
The definitions of objective and subjective are as follows:
Objective: not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
Subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, opinions, or experiences.
Ken
This definition often confuses people because it gives the impression you can choose if something is objective or subjective. A better definition would be; objective is something that can be demonstrated; subjective can’t be demonstrated. Example;
Can you demonstrate Math, or laws of nature? Yes; those are examples of objectivity.
Can you demonstrate morality? No; that is an example of subjectivity
Chriliman
Which is of greater importance, being objective or subjective
Being objective means to seek truth based on facts that are not influenced by personal feelings, opinions, or experiences. The truths that you seek can be proven to be real outside of your mind. For example: if you throw a ball in the air it will come back down based on the laws of nature. This is an objectively proven truth because you can observe the balls actions and can use mathematics to prove that what the ball is doing is in fact real.
This shows that truth can exist not just in our minds, but outside of our minds as well.
Being subjective means to seek truth based on personal feelings, opinions, or experiences. The truths that you seek can only be proven to be real to yourself. For example: I believe God is real because I have proven it to myself. This is a subjectively proven truth because you can not prove that God exists outside of your mind.
Ken
This is misleading. Some truths are subjective, others are objective; you don’t get to choose. Morality, good/bad, are subjective because they can’t be demonstrated; math is objective because it can be demonstrated; you don’t get to choose which truths are objective or subjective.
Chriliman
This shows that God may not exist outside of our minds, but can exist in our minds.
Ken
As does Santa Clause; I think that call it; “figment of imagination”
Chriliman
We can prove that truth can be both subjectively and objectively real,
Ken
No; some truths are subjective, others are objective.
Chriliman
but we can only prove that God is subjectively real. Only God himself can prove that He is objectively real.
Ken
Yes he can demonstrate his existence just like everybody else does.
Chriliman
This leads to the question:
Why doesn't God objectively prove to all people that he exists?
Follow my logic below:
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
You would all agree that we are logical beings, correct? Using logic is crucial in understanding and proving anything. Using logic will also lead us to be as objective as humanly possible. Even the Bible says to prove all things. Which makes complete sense, why shouldn't we at least attempt to prove all things? With all this in mind, follow my logic and feel free to add more logical thoughts.
Surely God wouldn't instruct us to prove all things, while leaving Himself to be unprovable. Yet the only way to truly prove something exists, is to have a full objective understanding of that which is objectively provable. For example: We can objectively prove that truth exists by observing the objective laws of nature.
Ken
But not all truths can be objectively proven.
Chriliman
This leads to the question: Can God be understood and proven objectively?
Ken
Only if he demonstrates his existence like everyone else.
Chriliman
"But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6)
Christians believe in order to have a full understanding of God you must first believe He exists and then seek His Word/Will. If we break that statement down logically using objectivity and subjectivity, it reads like this: In order to understand God objectively you must first subjectively believe He exists. How can objectivity possibly come from subjectivity? If you must first be subjective in order to achieve objectivity, you are still only achieving subjectivity. This is absolute logic that can't be denied (if you can use logic to deny it, please do!).
This begs the question: Why has God allowed it to be impossible for us to objectively prove that He exists? (please reference my thought experiment to better understand the importance of this question)
I'm a believer because I believe God is objectively proving He exists through prophecy and miracles and potentially creation itself.
Ken
Unless the prophecy, miracles, and creation you speak of can be demonstrated, it is subjective.
Chriliman
Yet its clearly not enough to prove to all people He exists otherwise everyone would believe! I believe if God is real He will objectively prove to all people that He is real because He MUST! Otherwise why allow us to be logical beings, when our logic leads us to the conclusion that we can not objectively prove that God exists, only He can prove this!
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them . . . " (Romans 1:18-20)
However, the fact that God has made it impossible for any of us to objectively prove His existence also makes it impossible to follow His instruction to prove all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21), unless He is only referring to subjective truths, this is the only logical answer. I want to believe in God, but the logic that he has supposedly allowed me to have prevents complete objective belief, thus I will always have doubts unless I submit to subjective belief.
Ken
Okay; so this is how you derive to a personal subjective belief; how does this show the possibility of God to the Atheist?
Ken
