What could Unity in MJism look like?

ContraMundum said:

Sorry to take too much from Hoshiyya's thread, but what could unity between MJs, mainstream Christians and Jews look like?

Would it be based on common theology, praxis or some mix of both?

I'd also be interested in fielding more exact ideas - such as whether or not the Shema could be a unifying prayer in liturgical or joint gathering for Jews and MJs and whether or not the Our Father could be a source of unity for MJs and mainstream Christians.

Any thoughts?

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There is too much theology between us at this point for any real unification. The only thing that will do it is for Yeshua to destroy all our learning and begin over.

Before MJ's seek unity with Jews or Christians, we need to find unity among ourselves. Right now, we can't even agree on what MJ is. I'm surprised we get along as well as we do on this forum.

But we're all friends, right?

I'm tempted to start a thread on what a united Messianic Judaism would look like, but I'm afraid it would start a holy war.

Your title indicates unity within MJ, yet your description indicates unity outside of MJ.

Muslims, Christians, and Buddhists can get together and proclaim, "God is good!" However it is completely pointless because they won't agree on how to live their lives on a daily basis. I can hang out with Christians or Agnostics and talk about brewing beer. It's fun, but our actual worldview is nothing alike. Therefore we do not have unity.

So getting Jews, Christians, and MJs together to say "God is good!" is equally irrelevant. One group will profane the Sabbath while eating pork, and the other will claim Yeshua is a bastard. Your pretend unity is a complete fraud.

the Shema could be a unifying prayer in liturgical or joint gathering for Jews and MJs and whether or not the Our Father could be a source of unity for MJs and mainstream Christians.

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I don't see it happening. There is too big of a gulf between the beliefs of the Messianic faith and Judaism. While I think Christianity and the Messianic faith align theologically, there is a difference in how one outwardly observes that belief.
In both cases there is too much distance to over come.

Do you think it important that such a unity exist?

ChavaK said:

Do you think it important that such a unity exist?

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I think it depends on who is talking. There are a minority of messianics who feel like they are the one true religion and everyone else is heathens so forget unity. But the majority of messianics feel they are a bridge between Christianity and Judaism. You can't be a bridge unless you have a foot grounded firmly on each side. For myself, the only thing seperating me from "practicing Judaism" is my belief in Christ. In terms of observance and synagogue attendence, I'm there. It seems kind of silly to me.

Belief in ALL scripture is the only unity. One mind into a common teaching taught of the Spirit of wisdom, and knowledge.

But even then with all wisdom, and knowledge it is having a fruit of meekness in brotherly love which is needed.

We were all mostly taught our religious practices from wolves, and the ravenous beast are our only living examples of "Godly men". We are ambitious, and devour each other. We think mostly of a self preservation in our flesh, and pride ...but we should die, we are living sacrifices, and our gain should only be the death of the flesh living solely for the will of The Spirit, but even then, we should still be willing to die, even so, to die with many sufferings for His Name sake.

We have no unity for this cause because we are not all living for the same cause, or for the same name. We are not living to die for His Name sake in all things. I too in my own double mindedness am guilty, and I in no way exalt myself in saying this.

We all suffer double mindedness, and it is the most vile sin of all, bearing various fruits of hypocrisy within Messiahs Assembly bringing reproach to His Holy Name. The fruit of hypocrisy is not His fruit, but He bares it as a slander against His Name.

...so is this the reward we give to Him Who came to suffer for our preservation, Who also lives His entire life worrying about our souls despite our many evils against Him?

I am ashamed of myself when I think of this, and I do love Him, but as a hypocrite when I am failing to love my brothers.

What is the point to desire to die for Him if in my heart dwells the teaching of wolves, and I devour His flock in order to preserve some worldly reputation which too will pass away? In this I greatly lack meekness, and a quiet soul, but also fear prevails because I in paranoia am quick to make accusation.

I must die to this, and I also think many of you must also shed this worldly leaven of hypocrites, and die to His Word as well.

JeffTheLearner said:

Belief in ALL scripture is the only unity. One mind into a common teaching taught of the Spirit of wisdom, and knowledge.

But even then with all wisdom, and knowledge it is having a fruit of meekness in brotherly love which is needed.

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This was a really thoughtful post; I am still digesting it.

I think that the Bible, even with meekness and brotherly love, is not enough to unite. We already have that, and MJ is about as splintered as can be.

ContraMundum said:

Sorry to take too much from Hoshiyya's thread, but what could unity between MJs, mainstream Christians and Jews look like?

Would it be based on common theology, praxis or some mix of both?

I'd also be interested in fielding more exact ideas - such as whether or not the Shema could be a unifying prayer in liturgical or joint gathering for Jews and MJs and whether or not the Our Father could be a source of unity for MJs and mainstream Christians.

Any thoughts?

Click to expand...

Theology can't be the answer. Who gives? Do we give up Yeshua to join Judaism... do we force the Orthodox to accept Yeshua? No, the only way WE can work toward unity is by mutual respect and understanding. When Joseph is forced to be Judah, he ceases to be Joseph. And when Judah is forced to be Joseph, he ceases to be Judah. The answer, I think, is found in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 37:15 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 16 “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17 Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.

18 “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’ 20 And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.

If you'll notice, the progression is that Ezekiel, a servant... is who first identifies who the two sticks are and treats them "as if" one and THEN God makes them one. Who are the two sticks? I have my thoughts, others have theirs... no reason to allow division over it. Suffice to say ANYONE who belongs to the Most High God either belongs to the name on the stick OR is one of the companions. Point is.... Ezekiel did something that requires a complete lack of religious pride.... he treated two unique and separate groups of PEOPLE as if they were one... and then God made them one.

ContraMundum said:

Sorry to take too much from Hoshiyya's thread, but what could unity between MJs, mainstream Christians and Jews look like?

Would it be based on common theology, praxis or some mix of both?

I'd also be interested in fielding more exact ideas - such as whether or not the Shema could be a unifying prayer in liturgical or joint gathering for Jews and MJs and whether or not the Our Father could be a source of unity for MJs and mainstream Christians.

Any thoughts?

Click to expand...

What I, you or any other person here on earth may think and desire in the limited life time we are given may not necessarily pan out as we hope to expect.

King Solomon felt that, "Blessed be the Lord who has given rest to his people Israel, according to all that he promised. Not one word has failed of all his good promise, which he spoke by Moses his servant" and that the temple he built would be a unifying factor in the whole world, "that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no other." 1 Kings 8:56,60

Let's just say all the wisdom at this present time came together and formed a common theology, praxis or some mix of both to indeed establish a unity between MJs, mainstream Christians and Jews. Will it just be another momentary page in history where people further in the future see it as a failed footnote? Or will it be the message the prophet Jeremiah spoke about in chpt 31:31-34?

Norbert L said:

What I, you or any other person here on earth may think and desire in the limited life time we are given may not necessarily pan out as we hope to expect.

King Solomon felt that, "Blessed be the Lord who has given rest to his people Israel, according to all that he promised. Not one word has failed of all his good promise, which he spoke by Moses his servant" and that the temple he built would be a unifying factor in the whole world, "that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no other." 1 Kings 8:56,60

Let's just say all the wisdom at this present time came together and formed a common theology, praxis or some mix of both to indeed establish a unity between MJs, mainstream Christians and Jews. Will it just be another momentary page in history where people further in the future see it as a failed footnote? Or will it be the message the prophet Jeremiah spoke about in chpt 31:31-34?

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What any of us think or desire is us doing the thinking and desiring. That's in the Providence of God. The Temple will be present in the coming Kingdom of God on earth, the Messianic Kingdom, and Jesus will be the unifying factor. Jeremiah addressed the promise precisely. All the wisdom of the world can never do that.

All I can say is that the ideology that the papacy is working towards with open arms to all faiths in unity isn't right either. We can not be united with the amalgamation that they are working towards. It will be "peace peace when there is no peace". They are working towards world peace and united one faith. They will probably get the nod from a lot of political, financial, powerhouses as they incorporate Sharia Law as part of the peace process. Israel we know will fight to the death for that not to happen to them. Then it will be all Israel's fault that we have no peace in the world, because Israel refuses to give up the faith.

My prayer of Shema is as follows:
אל מלך נאמן


שמע ישראל יהוה אלוהנו יהוה אכד


ישוע יהוה משיחנו


(ברוך שם כבד מלכותו לעולם ועד)



ואהבת את יהוה אלהיך בכל-לבבך ובכל-נפשך ובכל-מאדך


והיו הדברם האלה אשר אנכי מצוך היום על-לבבך ושננתם לבנך


ודברת בם בשבתך בביתך ובלכתך בדרך ובשכבך וב- קמך


וקשרתם לאות על-ידך והיו לטטפת בין ענך: וכתבתם על – מזזת ביתך ובשעריך

visionary said:

All I can say is that the ideology that the papacy is working towards with open arms to all faiths in unity isn't right either. We can not be united with the amalgamation that they are working towards. It will be "peace peace when there is no peace". They are working towards world peace and united one faith. They will probably get the nod from a lot of political, financial, powerhouses as they incorporate Sharia Law as part of the peace process. Israel we know will fight to the death for that not to happen to them. Then it will be all Israel's fault that we have no peace in the world, because Israel refuses to give up the faith.

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Viz you are doing your reptilian shapeshifter thing again. The pope has no interest in a one world religion. He just wants to make sure there are no more religious wars and stuff, either by Catholics or anyone else.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

There shall be war.

Open Heart said:

Viz you are doing your reptilian shapeshifter thing again. The pope has no interest in a one world religion. He just wants to make sure there are no more religious wars and stuff, either by Catholics or anyone else.

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That isn’t just the implication it’s the explicit call in the latest from the Vatican: that we need to move to a system of worldgovernment:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2011/10/25/the-vatican-calls-for-world-government/

A passage that seems to say that the Church should seek to promote "a new humanism" to serve as the ethical and cultural basis of world-government:

On the way to building a more fraternal and just human family and, even before that, a new humanism open to transcendence, Blessed John XXIII’s teaching seems especially timely. In the prophetic Encyclical Pacem in Terris of 1963, he observed that the world was heading towards ever greater unification. He then acknowledged the fact that a correspondence was lacking in the human community between the political organization “on a world level and the objective needs of the universal common good”



Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/whoo...for-one-word-government-2011-10#ixzz3dM6ogEsA

visionary said:

That isn’t just the implication it’s the explicit call in the latest from the Vatican: that we need to move to a system of worldgovernment:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2011/10/25/the-vatican-calls-for-world-government/

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I learned long ago not to trust things the media said about the Vatican but to go directly to the Vatican. The media inevitably screws things up, sensationalizes stuff, and tries to swing things to one extreme or another. For example, right now the media is trying to paint Francis as a Progressive or Leftist when in fact he's a Conservative when it comes to dogma.

Now in this post you have changed the topic from one religion to one government. I'm not sure if you were aware that you flipped subjects or not.

When it comes to this subject, the idea the church has is to look for solutions for world peace while ensuring the autonomy of nations. That means that the Catholic Church might support pan-national groups like the UN or the world court, while still favoring a multi-national world.

So forget a one world government. I don't think anyone wants it. The people with money just want to be able to do their business without hangups, which they can in a multi-national world.

Open Heart said:

I learned long ago not to trust things the media said about the Vatican but to go directly to the Vatican. The media inevitably screws things up, sensationalizes stuff, and tries to swing things to one extreme or another. For example, right now the media is trying to paint Francis as a Progressive or Leftist when in fact he's a Conservative when it comes to dogma.

Now in this post you have changed the topic from one religion to one government. I'm not sure if you were aware that you flipped subjects or not.

When it comes to this subject, the idea the church has is to look for solutions for world peace while ensuring the autonomy of nations. That means that the Catholic Church might support pan-national groups like the UN or the world court, while still favoring a multi-national world.

So forget a one world government. I don't think anyone wants it. The people with money just want to be able to do their business without hangups, which they can in a multi-national world.

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The harlot who rides the beast. When a religion rides the political powers, it is not flipping subjects. You always identify both the beast and the harlot are one force to be reckoned with. Before any major moves by government, the leaders go kiss the pope's ring. They have their private conversation. Then the leaders go back home to do business. Now tell me who has the reigns of the government.