The Man Christ Jesus

NannaNae said:

"Firstly, the Messiah is neither 'fully Divine' nor 'fully human' since one cancels out the other. The Messiah is both authentically Divine and authentically human. I know what you mean but what you are actually saying is metaphysical nonsense and therefore false."

Sorry but I am fully woman and have a some spirit of ( father , son and holy ghost) in me , just like Jesus did. When the Father's spirit descended on him at his baptism , because this stuff is about rights, according to prophetic events. and public proclamations are what those laws and prophecies are all about. ..
where Jesus was more the right arm ( the word became flesh) and I am just a lamp/ candle lit by the ( I am the light of the world as he said that on Chanukah , and speaking as the
" father of lights" , is the One Light/first light the priests used to light the other candles on the Temple and other Menorahs. I didn't stop being human because I got baptized..
so he had to have been approved to recieve the fathers spirit !!!!
" this is my son in whom I am well pleased "
which by the way makes him just like you and me..
he had to overcome also.
but he was genetically the son of David a real boy deposited into Mary. no alien freakiness..

He didn't have special privileges he was a man until he was baptized into the father. the first of many . He had to Overcome the devil and his self just like we do, only we get his help now .

in order for the FATHER to dwell with in HIM He had to overcome the world.

. though it is probably another baptism we have all yet to go through......
. but it is promised and it is coming !

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Sorry, but I disagree. Before the Incarnation through Mary the Son Existed exclusively as the Infinite, Eternal and Discarnate (Jn.4:24) Divine Creator, YHWH. As a result of the Incarnation (1Jn.4:1-3) the Son now simultaneously exists as both the Infinite, Eternal and Discarnate (Jn.4:24) Divine Creator, YHWH and the finite, temporal and Incarnate human creature Jesus of Nazareth. The Way in which the Son exists as the Incarnate human creature Jesus of Nazareth is almost totally different to the way in which he exists as the Infinite, Eternal and Discarnate Divine Creator YHWH but both modes of existence are equally real.

With respect comparing yourself and your experiences to the hypostatic union (the way in which the Messiah simultaneously exists as both Discarnate Divine Creator and Incarnate human creature) shows a complete lack of understanding of what is involved in the Incarnation. The issue here is how can the Messiah simultaneously exist as Infinite Divine Creator (with all which that involves) and finite human creature (with all which that involves as well) rather than the fact that you are a female human creature with the Spirit of God indwelling you (which is exactly the same for every other believer (Jn.1:12-13) but is also utterly different from the hypostatic union by which the Messiah simultaneously exists as both Infinite Divine Creator and finite human creature. The fact that you have the Holy Spirit indwelling you does not make you the Infinite Divine Creator any more than it makes any other believer the Infinite Divine Creator(?!) but the Messiah is simultaneously existing as both the Infinite Divine Creator [YHWH] and a finite human creature [Jesus of Nazareth]. The issue is coming to terms with exactly how that is achieved which, to be frank, is, without Divine Revelation, beyond the comprehension of many if not most or even all people.

Simonline.

Aner said:

Simon - In your first post, you are recognizing that Jesus is a genuine fully functionally human being - a human consciousness/person - that interacts just as you and I do. That is great - and Biblical (ITim2:5, etc., etc.). You ALSO posit the notion that Jesus is the Divine Creator (btw - that seems redundant though immaterial).

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No, I don't. Jesus of Nazareth is the HUMAN incarnation of the Divine Creator YHWH (1Jn.4:1-3). It is the Divine Creator YHWH [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] not the human creature Jesus of Nazareth (otherwise there would be no need for a hypostatic union of two distinct natures) Who is the Divine Creator YHWH

Aner said:

Thus you have two persons/consciousnesses in your Christology.

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Whilst it may be true that the Messiah simultaneously exists as two modes of consciousness (one Infinitely Divine and the other finitely human) it is absolutely NOT TRUE that the Messiah simultaneously exists as TWO distinct Persons(?!) That is Nestorian heresy.

Aner said:

1. Which of these two persons/consciousnesses is sitting next to the right hand of God (scripture only identifies that there is one person sitting next to the right hand of God)?

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That's because there IS only ONE PERSON 'seated at the right hand of the Father' that of the Son/Messiah simultaneously existing as both Divine Creator [YHWH] and human creature [Jesus of Nazareth]

Aner said:

2. As an initial contradiction to your assertion of a genuinely functional human being in your first post, your tag states -

THE MESSIAH IS ONE PERSON SIMULTANEOUSLY EXISTING IN TWO (DISTINCT BUT NOT SEPARATE) WAYS AS TWO (MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE) NATURES - DIVINE [YHWH] AND HUMAN [JESUS OF NAZARETH]. THE MESSIAH EXISTS FIRST AND FOREMOST AS THE DIVINE CREATOR AND ONLY IN A SECONDARY SENSE AS THE HUMAN CREATURE.

Obviously this post is asserting that there is only ONE person in contrast to your clear recognition of two persons in your post.

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There is no contradiction. Your understanding of what I have said may be wrong and that for you has generated an apparent contradiction but what I have actually said is not self-contradictory. Difficult to comprehend I grant you but not self-contradictory.

Aner said:

My question is - who is the one person? The human person or the divine person?

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There is no 'human person' and 'divine person' (that is Nestorian heresy)?! There is only ONE PERSON of the SON (the Second Person of the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator YHWH) who now simultaneously exists (by means of two distinct but not separate natures) as both Infinite, Eternal and Discarnate Divine Creator YHWH (Jn.4:24) and finite, temporal and incarnate human creature Jesus of Nazareth (Jn.14:28; Heb.2:17)

Aner said:

BTW - to clarify - scripturally the whole person/nature dichotomy is completely absent regarding Jesus.

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Regarding the human creature Jesus of Nazareth, yes, but definitely NOT regarding the Messiah Who in the human incarnation of the Divine Creator YHWH. Whilst the Bible is not meant to be a textbook on metaphysics the Church's metaphysical understanding of both God and the Messiah is deductively reasoned from what the scriptures DO explicitly state.

Aner said:

It is a mind-game for traditionalists who don't have basic exegetical skills - but this is another topic.

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Utter Rubbish! That is just a pernicious side-swipe at persons who's understanding of spiritual and metaphysical realities is better than that of your own. No-one ever said that understanding God and His Incarnate Messiah was going to be easy but it does require some effort which is why education has always been important wherever Judeo-Christianity has held sway. Indeed the creation of universities was to enable the study of Judeo-Christian theology regarded as 'the queen of the sciences' to which all other disciplines were regarded as sub-servient.

Aner said:

My point in the OP is that the fundamental incongruity of the humanly created Hypostatic Union - and blasphemous nature of it - be exposed.

Aner

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The fact that we struggle to understand the Incarnation does not make it incongruous. Your arrogance in assuming that anything which cannot be understood by humans must therefore be 'incongruous' rather than simply beyond our limited comprehension is astounding. It's that kind of thinking that has hindered the development of human civilization and kept millions in a state of poverty and unnecessary toil (see The Book That Made Your World by Vishal Mangalwadi The Book that Made Your World: How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization: Vishal Mangalwadi: 9781595555458: Amazon.com: Books)

Simonline.

Simonline said:

Sorry, but I disagree. Before the Incarnation through Mary the Son Existed exclusively as the Infinite, Eternal and Discarnate (Jn.4:24) Divine Creator, YHWH. As a result of the Incarnation (1Jn.4:1-3) the Son now simultaneously exists as both the Infinite, Eternal and Discarnate (Jn.4:24) Divine Creator, YHWH and the finite, temporal and Incarnate human creature Jesus of Nazareth. The Way in which the Son exists as the Incarnate human creature Jesus of Nazareth is almost totally different to the way in which he exists as the Infinite, Eternal and Discarnate Divine Creator YHWH but both modes of existence are equally real.

With respect comparing yourself and your experiences to the hypostatic union (the way in which the Messiah simultaneously exists as both Discarnate Divine Creator and Incarnate human creature) shows a complete lack of understanding of what is involved in the Incarnation. The issue here is how can the Messiah simultaneously exist as Infinite Divine Creator (with all which that involves) and finite human creature (with all which that involves as well) rather than the fact that you are a female human creature with the Spirit of God indwelling you (which is exactly the same for every other believer (Jn.1:12-13) but is also utterly different from the hypostatic union by which the Messiah simultaneously exists as both Infinite Divine Creator and finite human creature. The fact that you have the Holy Spirit indwelling you does not make you the Infinite Divine Creator any more than it makes any other believer the Infinite Divine Creator(?!) but the Messiah is simultaneously existing as both the Infinite Divine Creator [YHWH] and a finite human creature [Jesus of Nazareth]. The issue is coming to terms with exactly how that is achieved which, to be frank, is, without Divine Revelation, beyond the comprehension of many if not most or even all people.

Simonline.

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Simon you saying you had a word from God or a revelation .. do tell us what that was and how he told you that ?

Of his body it only says he is the second Adam and the Son of David ' the one greater than Solomon .
yes he was before time and before he was born a man ,he was the right arm of God.. when he gained that part of himself once he was a man and knit in a womb is only speculation .

what day one became both , or was one, or the other or both can only be seen/proven at the baptism. Where he Took his Office/authority from his Father , after having been approved by the father ! and in Full view of many witnesses including John the Baptist who was probably really the high priest or heir to be it, and thus fulfilling his high duty to serve the father .
and everything else is speculations. because that baptism is a witnessed and legally binding document.
everything interesting speculations but not provable. and I got lists and lists of those kind of things..
Boy I do enjoy great great speculations and appreciate great guessing !
if God revealed something to you that is different about the process what is revealed at the baptism , tell us about that part , so that we can judge it ? that is how that is supposed to work I think .

Steeno7 said:

Jesus is the unique God-man, fully God and fully man. My response to the other remains the same....huh?

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To be fully God is to possess necessary, unlimited power; to be fully man is to possess contingent, limited power.

To be fully God is to possess necessary, perfect knowledge; to be fully man is to possess contingent, imperfect knowledge.

To be fully God is to transcend physical reality; to be fully man is to bound by physical reality.

To be fully God is to be eternal and atemporal; to be fully man is to be finite and temporal.

This list is only limited by the number of attributes which God and man both possess.

A God-man, fully God and fully man, is logically absurd. A thing cannot be itself and its negation. It is the proverbial square circle, the married bachelor made flesh.

Or so says this heretic.

AbdullahTawhid said:

To be fully God is to possess necessary, unlimited power; to be fully man is to possess contingent, limited power.

To be fully God is to possess necessary, perfect knowledge; to be fully man is to possess contingent, imperfect knowledge.

To be fully God is to transcend physical reality; to be fully man is to bound by physical reality.

To be fully God is to be eternal and atemporal; to be fully man is to be finite and temporal.

This list is only limited by the number of attributes which God and man both possess.

A God-man, fully God and fully man, is logically absurd. A thing cannot be itself and its negation. It is the proverbial square circle, the married bachelor made flesh.

Or so says this heretic.

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Of course Jesus can be fully God and fully man. What is logically absurd is to think that God cannot Self-limit Himself to function as a man while remaining God. Jesus could be God and be man at the same time, but He could not function as God and man at the same time...as God alone is autonomous, independent and self-generating. Whereas man is dependent, derivative and contingent.

Steeno7 said:

Of course Jesus can be fully God and fully man. What is logically absurd is to think that God cannot Self-limit Himself to function as a man while remaining God. Jesus could be God and be man at the same time, but He could not function as God and man at the same time...as God alone is autonomous, independent and self-generating. Whereas man is dependent, derivative and contingent.

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excellent Rightousnes and Lawfullness and LIFE demands limits and constraints. those constraints .. heck any constraints for the sake of Love or promise show his Grace and mercy and real authority! excellent point!

AbdullahTawhid your arguement is nothing but greek philosophical sophistry and are trying to define perfection from the imperfect veiw. that can't be done.

Aner said:

Christological Questions -

If the Logos/Second Person of the Trinity did not incarnate into that which was conceived in Mary - would that which was conceived be able to independently function just like you and I?

Who "learned obedience" in Heb 5:8??

Who is the "My" in "Not My will be done but Thy will be done"?

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No, because without the miracle of the incarnation Jesus of Nazareth would never have come into existence in the first place. Mary may well have been able to have a regular child through conventional means (as she later went on to do after the birth of the Messiah (Matt.1:25)) but that child would not have been Jesus of Nazareth.

If Jesus of Nazareth was/is an authentic human creature then why is it surprizing that in growing up he learned obedience. Isn't that what all civilized humans do?

The 'My' is the Messiah. The 'Thy' is the Father, a demonstration of the fact that the Messiah had indeed learned absolute obedience to His Father, even to the point of death.

Simonline.

Aner said:

@Salt

So you are saying the human person Jesus learned obedience? Do I understand that correctly?

Is so, what was the divine person doing while the human person was learning obedience?

Aner

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There is no 'human Person' or 'Divine Person'. There is One Person Who simultaneously exists as both Divine Creator and human creature by means of two distinct though not separate natures. The Messiah is not schizophrenic.

Simonline

Aner said:

@steen

So the man - the human person/consciousness - was learning obedience. Same question as for Salt.

What was the divine person/consciousness doing while the human person of Jesus was learning obedience?

And who do we relate to now - the human person or the divine person or both persons? Are both persons sitting at the right hand of God?

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There is only One Person - the Son. The question is not 'Who is existing?' but 'How is that One Person Existing?'...as Divine Creator, as human creature or as both simultaneously. One has to determine from the context of the passage under consideration whether the passage is referring to the Messiah as Divine Creator, as human creature or as both simultaneously?

Now, we relate to the Messiah as both Divine Creator [YHWH] and human creature [Jesus of Nazareth] since He is still the same One Person simultaneously existing as both Divine Creator [YHWH] and human creature [Jesus of Nazareth].

Simonline

Steeno7 said:

He was functioning as a man, a true man as He Himself had created man to be...and as a man He learned.



Although fully God and never less than fully God, He functioned always and at all times as a man, having emptied Himself of the divine prerogative of independent exercise of His divine activity.



One Person, two natures. I relate to Him as who He is, God. Same with the Father, same with the Holy Spirit...who together comprise the One True God. There is no separation.

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Whilst I agree with your first statement I take strong exception to your second statement. The Messiah is neither 'fully God' nor 'fully man' since, if such were true, then the Messiah would be either exclusively (i.e. fully) Divine or exclusively (i.e. fully) human but not both simultaneously?!

It would be more precise (not to mention theologically correct) to say that the Messiah is both authentic Divine Creator and authentic human creature. Furthermore, the Scriptures do not say that, in order to incarnate as the Messiah, the Son 'emptied Himself' of anything. That has been interpreted into the Scriptures rather than translated from the Scriptures. If YHWH is supposedly Immutable then how in God's Name could YHWH have 'emptied Himself' of anything and yet remained the Infinite and Immutable Divine Creator? The Son gave up the way in which He manifest Himself to His Creation in order to 'make himself of no reputation' in taking the 'form' of a servant (as distinct from the 'manifestation' of the Divine Creator). His essential Nature as Divine Creator has remained absolutely unaltered throughout (Mal.3:6).

With your third statement I am again in complete agreement.

Simonline

Aner said:

@steen

Thanks for the response.

I am somewhat confused by your answer since it seems to contain explicit contradictions. Either Jesus was a man - like you and I - and as scripture teaches - or he was simply God assuming a non-functional human nature.

Let's return to my OP question -

Could that which was conceived in Mary exist/function independently without being assumed by the Logos/2nd Person - just like any man can and does??

Best,
Aner

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No. One cannot separate the Messiah as human from the Messiah as Divine. If YHWH did not incarnate then there would be no 'residue' human person to have an existence independent of that non-existent Incarnation. Whatever children Mary would have would have to have been brought into existence through conventional rather than miraculous means.

The Messiah is not a regular human creature who was 'adopted' by YHWH at conception to become the Messiah. The Messiah is first and foremost the Eternal and Immutable YHWH (the Second Person of the Trinity) who is the Son of the Father but as Divine is ABSOLUTELY NOT the 'Son of God'. Only in a secondary sense is the Messiah the human creature Jesus of Nazareth and it is in this sense (and this sense only) that the Messiah is the 'Son of God' (i.e. the human incarnation of YHWH). The Messiah is 'IMMANUEL - GOD WITH US' not 'Immanuel - God's Son with us'.

Simonline

Aner said:

Simon -

You are picking up a fairly long dead thread but not a dead subject. I just modified the OP since it seems that adding the birth aspect caused confusion. Let's deal with your response one at a time and actually finish one before moving on. What do you think?



The revised question is simply - if the Logos/2nd Person were to dis-incarnate from Jesus - would Jesus, as "fully human" (so you say) be able to fully, independently function as a man just like you and I do??

re: Your statement

Why could God not have simply created a virgin born man Jesus??



Who is learning obedience - the human person - or the divine person?



Who is the "My" the human person or the divine person? I am not interested in a title or related office/position - I am looking at the being.

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1. No. The Messiah is One Person simultaneously existing as both Divine Creator and human creature. The Person is ONE not TWO. Therefore the complete and total separation of the TWO Natures [Divine and human] would completely destroy the Messiah. Since the Messiah is first and foremost Divine Creator I am surmising that the Person would remain Immutably Divine rather than mutably human? Therefore I would have to say, no independent human existence apart from the Divine incarnation.

2. Those weren't my statements but I did respond to them.

As I have already said, in the case of the Messiah, there is only one Person simultaneously existing as both Divine Creator and human creature. As human creature the Messiah remained entirely loyal and obedient to His Father...even unto death but his human nature was to recoil from that which His father was asking Him to do, nevertheless, the Messiah as an act of His own will, subjugated His perfect human nature to the will of His Father...such is the correct definition of an angel - 'One who/that does the bidding of another'.

Simonline.

Aner said:

"residue human person" Geez... where are you getting that from????????

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Don't panic. I'm speaking hypothetically in response to a hypothetical postulate. I do not believe that such a thing could ever be a reality (read my last post).

Simonline.

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Aner said:

OK - I get your point that your are defining "the Messiah" as = the Divine Person + Divine Nature + Human Nature. If that is your functional definition, then, of course, if you remove any one of the 3 elements, you have a different set - no longer Messiah (per your definition).

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No. The Messiah is the single Person of the Son simultaneously existing as the Divine Creator and the human creature. The Messiah is NOT a Divine Person + Divine Nature + human nature. The Person existing as Divine Creator is Divine whilst the same Person existing as human creature is human. The Messiah is both authentic Divine Creator and authentic human creature. He is NOT 'God in a human suit' since no other human creature is 'God in a human suit' and the incarnate Messiah is supposed to be like us in every way (Heb.2:17)?

Aner said:

HOWEVER, that was not my question. My question is REGARDLESS of position/definition of Messiah, but simply looking at Jesus as an entity, could the human independently function. Well, in fact, you DID answer that question. And, I would agree that if indeed there was a pre-incarnate divine person, and that person was still a person upon incarnation, then that one person would certain (since divine) need to be immutable.

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Except that the 'entity' is not Jesus but the Messiah/Christ Who as Divine is YHWH [not Jesus of Nazareth] and as human is Jesus of Nazareth [not YHWH]. The answer to your question is still no for reasons which I have already elucidated.

Aner said:

BUT that results in a VERY grave problem which you are almost explicitly identifying in your phrase "no independent human existence apart from the Divine incarnation". While you are in good company with church tradition (at least since Cyril and Chalcedon) - since this doctrine is called the anhypostasis of Jesus human nature - you are in very bad company with the Messiah and His apostles who explicitly, repeatedly, necessarily state that Jesus is a man (Jn1:30, Jn8:40, Rom5:15ff, ICor15:21, ITim2:5, Acts2:26, etc., etc.,). Now unless you like playing word games, to shoehorn Messianic and Apostolic teaching into your Christology (pretty sure you don't!), you and I both know that a MAN - just like you and I - fully functions independent of an incarnated divine entity.

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Nice try. I concur that the Messiah/Christ is an authentic human creature but the Messiah/Christ is not ONLY an authentic human creature. He is also YHWH incarnate and Those TWO aspects of the ONE Messiah CANNOT be divorced from each other any more that the TWO Natures could be separated to arrive at two persons...one Divine and the other human?! To use a phrase...What God has joined together let no man separate.

Aner said:

So you now have a choice - either align with Jesus and His designated representatives - or align with church tradition that brought such nifty doctrines as transubstantion.... Your call.

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I think you'll have to try harder than that. I am aligned with the Scriptures which are the Word of God.

Aner said:

Oh - yeah, you will have to work a bit of lousy exegesis that has been steeped in tradition...

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Not really. I just refuse to accept any theology/doctrine (from whatever denomination or tradition) that contradicts the Word of God.

Aner said:

Simon - The fundamental problem you have with this is what you have identified above. The actual PERSON IS NOT HUMAN - only Divine. A Divine person does not need to learn or obey,etc. As to the human, you simply have an impersonal human nature. Obviously an impersonal human nature does not function independently - and, as such, does not choose to will, does not learn obedience, etc. Only PERSONS obey, learn, etc. Now you have the huge, fatal defect in the hypostatic union. It simply does not work with scripture.

Best,

Aner

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Except that Personality is intrinsically neither Divine nor human. Personality is defined by the nature of which it is a part. If Personality was intrinsically Divine (with all that is involved in Divinity) then it would be impossible for humans as finite creatures to be made in the image of God (Gen.1:26-27) i.e. to be personal. But personality is not something that is unique to the Divine Nature therefore Personality is not intrinsically Divine. Though I do agree that, as Infinite, the way in which God exists as Personal [Tri-Personal] is radically different from the way in which we , as finite creatures, exist as personal [Mono-Personal].

Mark.13:32 says 'No-one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son but only the Father.' If the Son is essentially the Divine Person (as you assert), the Second Person of the Trinity and therefore, by definition Omniscient, then how could he not know about that day or hour in which case how could He not be guilty of lying here which would have cosmic implications for his entire mission as the sinless Messiah?!

Simonline