The Covenant of the Aaronic Priesthood extended to Gentiles: Is this Possible?

Gxg (G²) · Oct 23, 2014

Concerning why I was writing this..

There was a discussion elsewhere on the matter of priests and what it took to become one. In order to be a Levite, one must be born of the tribe of Levi....and to be a priest (kohan), one must be not only a Levite but a descendent of Aaron. However, I came across something fascinating recently when reading in my One-Year Bible and was reminded that Scriptural history seems to be against the concept of having others who were not Levites by birth becoming priests themselves...as seen in Isaiah 66:21

18 And I, because of what they have planned and done, am about to come[a] and gather the people of all nations and languages, and they will come and see my glory.

19 I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nationsto Tarshish, to the Libyans and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations. 20 And they will bring all your people, from all the nations, to my holy mountain in Jerusalem as an offering to the Lordon horses, in chariots and wagons, and on mules and camels, says the Lord. They will bring them, as the Israelites bring their grain offerings, to the temple of the Lord in ceremonially clean vessels. 21 And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites, says the Lord.

As one commentator noted:

Verse 21. - And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites; literally, and I will also take of them unto the priests and unto the Levites; i.e. I will add to the existing body of priests and Levites, who are pro-sumably Jews, fresh members from the newly converted Gentiles.

And I will also take of them for priests,.... That is, of the Gentiles, the brethren brought as an offering to the Lord; and therefore must respect Gospel times, when the Aaronic priesthood would be changed and cease, which admitted not of Gentiles, nor any of any other tribe in Israel, but the tribe of Levi; nor is this to be understood of the spiritual priesthood common to all believers, 1 Peter 2:5 since of those converted Gentiles brought, not all, but only some of them, would be taken for priests; and therefore can only be interpreted of the ministers of the word, who, in Old Testament language, are called priests, though never in the New Testament; but elders, bishops, overseers, pastors, and teachers.

We can see how the Old Testament prophesy stated that Levitical priests will never cease offering sacrifice:

"For thus says the Lord: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man in my presence to offer burnt offerings, to burn cereal offerings, and to make sacrifices forever. The word of the Lord came to Jeremiah: Thus says the Lord: If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night will not come at their appointed time, then also my covenant with David my servant may be broken, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and my covenant with the Levitical priests my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered and the sands of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the descendants of David my servant, and the Levitical priests who minister to me." Jer. 33

And yet the Old Testament also prophesied that God intended to extend the Levitical priesthood to include non-Jewish people, meaning which meant it would no longer be hereditary..[

Also, as Derek Leman (although I don't agree with all things he has noted before) said best in the following - for a brief excerpt:

The claim of special Jewish privilege is not an accurate understanding of Israels election as the chosen people. It is a special responsibility more so than privilege, a calling to be holy. The blessings of chosenness do not mean any individual Jew is right with God simply by virtue of Jewish birth. Each individual Jew has a responsibility to believe God and join in Gods mission on earth.

That mission was stated in the Abrahamic Covenant even before the Sinai Covenant was given. God has great blessings for the Jewish nation. Yet this nation is to be the people of blessing to all families on earth. Israel is the vessel and the Gentiles are the goal. In you, said God, all the families of the earth will be blessed (Gen 12:3). This calling of Jewish people to be the vessel, like the oil lamp that bears the flame, is further specified in the Sinai Covenant: You will be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Exod 19:6). Priests represent God, mediating the knowledge of him to others. Who are the others for whom Israel will be priests? The only others, besides Israel, are the nations. A holy nation is one people among the many of the world set apart, called to an elevated level of holiness. This elevated holiness can be seen in the Torah in certain sign commandments required only of Israel: Sabbath, food laws, circumcision, fringes and other holiness markers.

Isaiah is a collection of prophecies which makes much of the theme of Gentiles and blessing.....In the scroll of Isaiah, Gentiles are not an afterthought. Israels chosenness is about teaching the nations who God is. Also, in Isaiah, the Gentiles are not just recipients of revelation from Israel. The Gentiles also reveal God to Israelites, even bringing Israelites back to God. The Gentiles are both recipients and revealers. In the same way, Israel on the whole is a revealer, but many Israelites are recipients. The light of God shines through Israel to the nations, but in many cases the nations receive the light better than Israelites, so that, in the end, Gentiles are bringing back Israelites in their arms to God.

Amazing that a Gentile, unclean, can become a clean vessel through Messiah....in the same way that God (as the author of the rules/systems within the OT) is able to alter them in freedom and be consistent with Himself/his goals. More on the issue was noted in excellent works such as Inclusive Voices in Post-exilic Judah - a work which "identifies differences among the texts to argue for new dimensions of inclusiveness now proclaimed in the post-exilic writings" while at the same time recognizing that "other texts from the same period propose policies of exclusion: Ezekiel 44 and Ezra/Nehemiah" - arguing that "The fact that such opposite points of view remain in the Scriptures allows the Gospel writers to recall past messages of inclusiveness and use them as part of their apology for the proclamation of the Gospel"

Other great works on the matter which I'd recommend are Judaism and the Gentiles: Jewish Patterns of Universalism by Terence L. Donaldson

Some may have issue with this since it is their view that Moses never said Non-Aaronic descendants could become Levites. However, the prophet Moses was never seen as the FINAL stop for where the Lord would develop things, as that'd be akin to saying he was greater than Abraham (or Noah prior to that) - as the Lord guiding the prophets for what was to come in the future at the Lord's command is not the same as saying God was ignoring Moses. It was the Lord who commanded and who has all ability to develop further as He sees fit - in the same way it was when seeing how things progressed from Seth to Noah to Abraham and all the way into Moses' day. The Lord never said that all forms of priests could only be found in the Levite model - nor was the Torah ever limited to that concept (as it was not just the first 5 books but also the entirety of God's work in his people) when seeing the Writings/Prophets in their actions. Thus, the real question isn't "Does YHWH contradict Himself?" but rather "Does one understand contradiction in the same manner that YHWH does or know the dynamic of Change he already made with regards to the Law?" -

This extends beyond what occurred in the OT....specifically when realizing that others greater than Moses would arise and Yeshua paralleled the life of Moses in many respects. For we understand that the purpose of Yeshua's life and work was to fulfill both the Law (the books of Moses) and the Prophets (other Old Testament books) - and He did not destroy the Old Testament. However, when the Lord said I have not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, it's logically consistent with the culture of the OT that he did not mean that each specific law would stay exactly the same. Rather, he meant that the purpose and message of the Law and the Prophets remain exactly the same. ..for the Law and the Prophets pointed to him and were intended from the beginning to be fulfilled by him in every dynamic necessary. At the end of the day, it is Yeshua as the Son of God who has more authority than Moses had (Hebrews 3:1-6) - and Yeshua is the standard by which Moses is judged. Whereas Moses wrote many chapters about the tabernacle and the place in which God put his name, we see where Yeshua noted that place did not matter (John 4:20-24).

And we understand where Moses even prophesied that the Messiah would come - one with authority as He had it - as seen in Deuteronomy 18:15: "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him." And we can also see the same promise in the Lord's Own words from Deuteronomy 18:18: "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.". This was fulfilled in the person of Yeshua. For when he performed the miracle of feeding the 5000 in John 6, the crowd said "Surely this the Prophet who is to come into the world" (John 6:14). Additionally, when he spoke to the multitiudes at the Feast of Tabernacles, some of the people exclaimed, "Surely this man is the Prophet" (John 7:40).. Moreover, when the Jews questioned the legitimacy of Christ, the Lord noted directly that they really did not understand Moses' words (as they continually accused him of breaking the Law or Sabbath - not knowing the difference between fulfilling something and "breaking" as they saw it), as seen when he said " 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses youMoses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" (John 5:46).

As it concerns what the Prophet Isaiah noted in Isaiah 66:21

Isaiah 66:21

And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the LORD.

Click to expand...

, Isaiah was not a false prophet for what he noted when it came to saying others would be made into Levites BY THe Lord's command. That would be akin to saying the Master of the house has no right to change his policy as he sees fit - and that's not what the Lord ever indicated he supported. Policy changing is not the same as policy passing away - it will always be in the memory of events on what occurred...and recorded for reference in showing how things built up. Nonetheless, the fact that it occurred isn't the same as saying that all practices would be exactly as it in the future - nor does it mean that differing practices are the same as saying that the Law is gone. The Lord would be perfectly within his rights to ensure that certain Gentiles be made into priests for spiritual worship, enjoying the direct access to God which was formerly enjoyed by the ministers of the temple alone ( 1 Peter 2:9 , Revelation 1:6 ).

And this is very important to keep in mind in light of the ways it seems that Gentiles are often deemed to be lesser than Jews in differing ways - even though God already said many times that his love for his people isn't based on ethnic claims alone. Interestingly enough, the entirety of the Hebrews according to Exodus 19-20 were going to be priests - but after the Golden Calf, it was limited only to Aaron's descendants.....thus making it seem as if the Aaronic priesthood was really never God's intention from the beginning. Thus, it makes sense to see previews from the Lord in Isaiah showing that he was wanting to open it up eventually. Christ truly conquers all barriers

If anyone has any thoughts on the matter, I'd love to hear.

Gxg (G²) · Nov 3, 2014

A New Order of Priests and Levites

franky67 · Dec 26, 2014

2 Cor. 1:20 sums up all your post in one verse

To Paraphrase; All the promises of God are, in HIM, yes and amen.

Then Galatians 3:14-29 explains it.

Gxg (G²) · Feb 3, 2015

franky67 said:
2 Cor. 1:20 sums up all your post in one verse

To Paraphrase; All the promises of God are, in HIM, yes and amen.

Then Galatians 3:14-29 explains it.

I understand where you're coming from .

Presbyterian Continuist · Apr 18, 2015

Some "apostles" arrived in the Galatian churches and taught that they must be circumcised and abide by the Mosaic Law. Paul called them "false apostles" who were "bewitching" the members.

The New Covenant, which has totally replaced the Old, makes every believer a king and priest. The Aaronic Priesthood is no longer recognised by Christ under the New Covenant. Anyone who tries to approach God through that priesthood will be rejected, because such people are not born again.

The Scripture says that Jesus is now our Great High Priest who is seated at the right hand of God. The only ones accepted of God now are those who have faith in Him.

Light of the East · May 18, 2015

Oscarr said:
Some "apostles" arrived in the Galatian churches and taught that they must be circumcised and abide by the Mosaic Law. Paul called them "false apostles" who were "bewitching" the members.

The New Covenant, which has totally replaced the Old, makes every believer a king and priest. The Aaronic Priesthood is no longer recognized by Christ under the New Covenant. Anyone who tries to approach God through that priesthood will be rejected, because such people are not born again.

The Scripture says that Jesus is now our Great High Priest who is seated at the right hand of God. The only ones accepted of God now are those who have faith in Him.

The priesthood is the visible and representative authority of God. Adam was the first priest, representing God to Creation and Creation back to God as God's high priest. As such, Adam was the covenant mediator between Creation and God. When Adam fell, that position was lost. Somewhere in the silence of Scripture, Melchizedek came on the scene, for he was high priest before God (Heb. 5:10)

The Levitical priesthood, of the order of Aaron, was the mediatorial priesthood between men and the covenant kingdom. It was under the Levitical priesthood that personal sins were forgiven. The priest received the offering, the confession of sin, offered the sacrifice, and the sacrifice was then eaten.

Jesus took the authority of the Levitical priesthood to represent God to men and men back to God and transferred that to the Apostles. (John 20:23). This was one of several Old Covenant actions which were "pulled through" to the New Covenant and fulfilled. For instance, the Passover pulled through to the Eucharist. Circumcision pulled through in to baptism. The high priesthood continued in the New Covenant with a permanent Great High Priest -- Christ Jesus. And the priesthood continued in the Apostles.

The priesthood is the visible representation of God's authority. Every covenant has a visible authority structure. Every believer is a priest and king unto God, but if you understand the Suzerainty structure of covenant relationships, there are levels of authority and responsibility in such relationships. Only the Apostles and their successors, the bishops of the Church, have the authority to forgive sins. Without them, there would be no forgiveness of sins.

Gxg (G²) · Dec 18, 2016

jgr · Dec 19, 2016

Light of the East said:
Only the Apostles and their successors, the bishops of the Church, have the authority to forgive sins. Without them, there would be no forgiveness of sins.

John 20:23 is frequently cited by those who cling to this doctrine. Let us examine further.

It is self-evident that only the one who has been sinned against has the ability to forgive that sin.

In any sin, there is always at least one who has been sinned against, and that is God. We know that He forgives sin (1 John 1:9). This is His promise if we confess that sin to Him; and because it is He who has been sinned against, it is therefore He, and He alone, who forgives. No one else is involved.

In addition to God, the other individual who is very frequently sinned against is a fellow human being. Again, there is no one other than that individual who can forgive the sin; the only other individual involved is the one who has committed the sin. It is unquestionably very appealing to believe that you can go to an uninvolved third party and easily receive forgiveness, without the humility and potential unpleasantness involved in directly asking forgiveness of the one whom you have sinned against, of perhaps providing restitution, and of perhaps bearing other consequences. But it is only in this way that genuine forgiveness can be received.

Forgiveness is personal, not “third party”:
Mark 11:25
Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.

God holds us personally to a high standard of forgiveness:
Matt. 18:21-22
Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

So what did Christ mean in John 20:23? Simply, “If you forgive the sins of any who sin against you, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any who sin against you, they have been retained.”

BABerean2 · Dec 19, 2016

The Covenant of the Aaronic Priesthood extended to Gentiles: Is this Possible?

No.

Heb 7:12　 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

We Christians are often guilty of looking through the wrong end of the telescope.
We keep going back to the Old Testament, instead of using the New Testament as our guide.

It should have only taken one verse from the Book of Hebrews to answer this question.

We continue to ignore the battle between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant found in Acts 15 and in the books of Galatians and Hebrews.

We have not come to Mount Sinai.

Heb 12:18　 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,　
Heb 12:19　 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.　
Heb 12:20　 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."　
Heb 12:21　 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")　

We have come to the New Covenant of Mount Zion.

Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.　
　

Light of the East · Dec 19, 2016

jgr said:
John 20:23 is frequently cited by those who cling to this doctrine. Let us examine further.

It is self-evident that only the one who has been sinned against has the ability to forgive that sin.

In any sin, there is always at least one who has been sinned against, and that is God. We know that He forgives sin (1 John 1:9). This is His promise if we confess that sin to Him; and because it is He who has been sinned against, it is therefore He, and He alone, who forgives. No one else is involved.

In addition to God, the other individual who is very frequently sinned against is a fellow human being. Again, there is no one other than that individual who can forgive the sin; the only other individual involved is the one who has committed the sin. It is unquestionably very appealing to believe that you can go to an uninvolved third party and easily receive forgiveness, without the humility and potential unpleasantness involved in directly asking forgiveness of the one whom you have sinned against, of perhaps providing restitution, and of perhaps bearing other consequences. But it is only in this way that genuine forgiveness can be received.

Forgiveness is personal, not “third party”:
Mark 11:25
Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.

God holds us personally to a high standard of forgiveness:
Matt. 18:21-22
Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

So what did Christ mean in John 20:23? Simply, “If you forgive the sins of any who sin against you, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any who sin against you, they have been retained.”

You completely do not understand God's covenant relationship with mankind. Of course, if what you say is true, then how did the priests and the high priest in the Old Covenant have the ability to forgive others who had sinned, not against them, but against God?

The fact of the matter is that the ability of the priest to forgive sins is the second principle of Covenant - Hierarchy. Hierarchy is the principle by which the authority and leadership of God is invested in individuals for the running of the covenant congregation.

By granting His authority to others, God endows them with the ability to speak and act in His behalf. Thus we see that governments are an extension of the authority of God and are to act to enforce His law on mankind (Romans 13: 1-5). In like manner, the bishop is the spiritual authority of God on earth, and the priest acts on behalf of the bishop, who simply cannot be everywhere at every time.

Every community of people has its authority structure. You do not violate me when you run a red light, nor the police officer who stops you and gives you a ticket. But that police officer acts as representative of a higher authority which has been invested in him.

The same is true with covenant. Learn covenant and you will not make these grievous errors in theology.

BABerean2 · Dec 19, 2016

Light of the East said:
The fact of the matter is that the ability of the priest to forgive sins is the second principle of Covenant - Hierarchy. Hierarchy is the principle by which the authority and leadership of God is invested in individuals for the running of the covenant congregation.

The only way you can make the above work is to ignore the Book of Hebrews.

Only Christ can forgive sins.

He is the only mediator between us and God.

Heb 7:11　 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?　
Heb 7:12　 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.　

Heb 7:22　 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.　
Heb 7:23　 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing.　
Heb 7:24　 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.　

Heb 7:25　 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
　
Heb 7:26　 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;　

Heb 7:27　 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.　

Heb 7:28　 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.　

Each of us are ministers and priests of the New Covenant.

2Co 3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.　
2Co 3:7　 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,　
2Co 3:8　 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?　

1Pe 2:9　 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;　

The New Covenant Hierarchy has no mediator between us and Christ.

Light of the East · Dec 19, 2016

BABerean2 said:
The only way you can make the above work is to ignore the Book of Hebrews.

Only Christ can forgive sins.

He is the only mediator between us and God.

Heb 7:11　 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?　
Heb 7:12　 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.　

Heb 7:22　 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.　
Heb 7:23　 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing.　
Heb 7:24　 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.　

Heb 7:25　 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
　
Heb 7:26　 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;　

Heb 7:27　 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.　

Heb 7:28　 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.　

Each of us are ministers and priests of the New Covenant.

2Co 3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.　
2Co 3:7　 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,　
2Co 3:8　 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?　

1Pe 2:9　 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;　

The New Covenant Hierarchy has no mediator between us and Christ.

Utterly, totally, fatuously, and completely wrong. Typical of Protestants, you don't even know what the book of Hebrews is about. You twist and mangle the Scriptures and try to say that Hebrews is about personal sins. It is not.

It is about the Great High Priesthood of Christ, which has absolutely NOTHING - zip, zero, nada, zilch - to do with the Levitical priesthood. If you would actually THINK when you read Hebrews rather than approach it with Protestant assumptions that the priesthood is over, you would get it!

You also show complete ignorance of the continuation of the priesthood from Old Covenant to New Covenant. In the Old Covenant, there were also three classes of priests: the whole nation was called "a nation of priests." Did that mean that the laypeople of that time had the right to enter the Temple and offer animal sacrifices? Did they or the Levitical priests have the right to enter the "Holiest of All" and offer YOM KIPPUR? Not if they valued their miserable lives!!!

Jesus is the Great High Priest. Go to Chapters 7-10, take off your Protestant blinders, and ask the Holy Spirit to open your eyes. It is speaking about the offering of the corporate sacrifice called Yom Kippur. Jesus offers an eternal Yom Kippur, according to 7-10, not a sacrifice for our personal sins. That is not what Yom Kippur was about and that is not the sacrifice which is in view in 7-10.

YOM KIPPUR HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR PERSONAL SINS!!

You find me a verse anywhere in Leviticus which defines Yom Kippur as having to do with personal sins! Anywhere! The Levites handled personal sins. It was the duty and sole responsibility of the high priest to offer Yom Kippur once a year for the congregation of God, or the Church, as it is known in Scripture.

The structure of the Old Covenant priesthood continues to the New Covenant unchanged.

1. There is a Great High Priest who offers an eternal sacrifice.

2. There is the Levitical priesthood, transferred to the Apostles in John 20:23 when they are given the authority to forgive sins as the Levites were.

3. There is the general priesthood of all believers in which we represent God to the people around us and creation back to God.

BABerean2 · Dec 19, 2016

Light of the East said:
Utterly, totally, fatuously, and completely wrong. Typical of Protestants, you don't even know what the book of Hebrews is about. You twist and mangle the Scriptures and try to say that Hebrews is about personal sins. It is not.

I am not a "Protestant" who came partially out of the Papal system.

I am a part of the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13. It was revealed by Christ at the Last Supper that He would fulfill this New Covenant in His Blood.

Mat 26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.　

It is not the Old Covenant brushed up. It is something brand new.

It is not the ministry of death given to Moses.

2Co 3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.　
2Co 3:7　 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,　
2Co 3:8　 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?　

It is not the Sinai covenant of bondage found in Galatians chapter 4 that Paul compelled the Galatian believers to "cast out".

Gal 4:24　 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—　
Gal 4:25　 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—　

Gal 4:30　 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN."　
Gal 4:31　 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.　

It has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".

Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
　

Some of us cannot let go of Mount Sinai.

Heb 12:18　 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,　
Heb 12:19　 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.　
Heb 12:20　 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."　
Heb 12:21　 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")　

We are come to the New Covenant of Mount Zion, instead.

Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
　

The Book of Hebrews and the Book of Galatians and Acts chapter 15 are about the battle between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

The battle started in Acts chapter 15 and continues here.

.

jgr · Dec 19, 2016

If believers are already priests, why do we need more?
Revelation 1:6
6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to [a]His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

If believers can boldly approach the throne of grace themselves, why do they need priests?
Hebrews 4:16
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

It is God who is forgiving our sins, not a priest:
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Various NT church roles, e.g. the following, are defined. "Priest" is not among them:
Ephesians 4:11
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

Light of the East · Dec 19, 2016

I am not a "Protestant" who came partially out of the Papal system.

Call yourself a tuna fish for all I care. If you are not in the Church which Jesus established, then it is because you are protesting against something in it, ipso facto, you are a Protestant of some form.

I am a part of the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13. It was revealed by Christ at the Last Supper that He would fulfill this New Covenant in His Blood.

Mat 26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.　

It is not the Old Covenant brushed up. It is something brand new.

Wrong again. If it were something brand new, then Jesus would have established a new system instead of updating the Old Covenant by fulfilling it. He changed the Passover to the Eucharist, circumcision to baptism, He continued the high priesthood, the priesthood of believers, and the Levitical priesthood.

Your problem is that you believe in many covenants. There is only one covenant - the Covenant of God as expressed in the love between the Trinity and extended to mankind beginning with Adam.

It is not the ministry of death given to Moses.

2Co 3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.　
2Co 3:7　 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,　
2Co 3:8　 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?　

It is not the Sinai covenant of bondage found in Galatians chapter 4 that Paul compelled the Galatian believers to "cast out".

Gal 4:24　 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—　
Gal 4:25　 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—　

Gal 4:30　 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN."　
Gal 4:31　 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.　

It has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".

Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Yeah, I know. It's the New Covenant, the "better covenant which speaketh of better things." It is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant.
　

Some of us cannot let go of Mount Sinai.

Heb 12:18　 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,　
Heb 12:19　 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.　
Heb 12:20　 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."　
Heb 12:21　 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")　

Huh???? What does this have to do with anything????

We are come to the New Covenant of Mount Zion, instead.

Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

The Book of Hebrews and the Book of Galatians and Acts chapter 15 are about the battle between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

Yeah, I know that. And if you actually knew how a covenant works, you would RUN to the nearest Catholic or Orthodox parish and bang on the doors until they offered you membership.

Light of the East · Dec 19, 2016

If believers are already priests, why do we need more?
Revelation 1:6
6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to [a]His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Study your Bible better. In the Old Covenant, there were three classes of priests. All members of the covenant community were priests in that they represented God to Creation and mankind and Creation to God. That is what a priest does. The same is true today of all who are in the covenant Kingdom.

If believers can boldly approach the throne of grace themselves, why do they need priests?
Hebrews 4:16
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

You boldly approach the throne of grace thru the authorized mediators, not by yourself. It is arrogance to just think you can waltz up to God and chirp "Forgive me for I have sinned." without using the means that God established.

It is God who is forgiving our sins, not a priest:
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It is God IN THE PRIEST who is forgiving your sins. Just as the state declares you not guilty in a trial when the jury and judge say "Not Guilty." Representative authority. You don't have it. Neither do I. Only those who were authorized by Christ (John 20: 23) and their successors have that authority.

Ray Sutton, in his valuable work on the Covenant of God, writes the following:

His authority. There is no escape from the principle of man's God-given mediatory authority. If God's authorities do not rule, neither does He, in the sense of a public manifestation of authority. He manifests visible sovereignty through the visible authority of those who are in visible covenant to Him.

(My note: the bishops of the Church are the visible authorities of the Church, who are the successors of the Apostles. Priests carry the authority of the bishop because the bishops simply cannot be everywhere to administer the Sacraments and Church discipline). The Christian always affirms that God rules over His creation. God (theos) rules (kratos). We live in a theocracy. The entire universe is a theocracy. Every human institution is a theocracy-Church, State, Family, business, etc. There is no escape from theocracy. But Christians in every aspect of their daily lives are supposed to make manifest His rule in every institution (and not just the State).

In other words, no visible authority = no authority at all.

Various NT church roles, e.g. the following, are defined. "Priest" is not among them:

Ephesians 4:11
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

Learn your Bible, learn the Covenant of God, and learn Christian history. Christ gave the priesthood of Levi to the Apostles (John 20:23). He gave them authority to forgive sins, which belonged formerly to the Levite priests.

BABerean2 · Dec 19, 2016

Light of the East said:
Yeah, I know that. And if you actually knew how a covenant works, you would RUN to the nearest Catholic or Orthodox parish and bang on the doors until they offered you membership.

If you think there is only one covenant, then you and the Apostle Paul are not in agreement.

Gal 4:24　 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—

I am already a member of the only Church that matters.
I did not have to seek the permission of any man to join it.

Joh 5:24　 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.　

oh 3:3　 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."　
Joh 3:4　 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"　
Joh 3:5　 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.　
Joh 3:6　 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.　
Joh 3:7　 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'　
Joh 3:8　 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."　

When were you born of the Spirit?

1Co_6:19　 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

If you do not know when you were born of the Spirit, it is you that should run to the nearest church body made up of born-again believers who are filled with the Spirit sent from God.

.

Light of the East · Dec 19, 2016

I am already a member of the only Church that matters.
I did not have to seek the permission of any man to join it.

Joh 5:24　 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

And when anyone came to belief in God, it was expected of him that he would join the Church, the quhar in the Old Covenant or the eklesia in the New Covenant. Both words mean the same thing: the congregation of God. It was expected that the convert would undergo the covenant making ritual, which was circumcision in the Old Covenant, or baptism in the New Covenant, and become part of the Church.

Salvation is not "me and Jaaaaayzuz" as your Fundamentalist mindset teaches. Salvation is by becoming one of the family of God, the covenant community, the Church. This idea that you can make a "decision for Jaaaayzuz" (a very recently invented idea) and become a member of God's family is ludicrous and violates every principle of covenant there is.

oh 3:3　 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."　
Joh 3:4　 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"　
Joh 3:5　 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.　

There, I corrected that for you. That is what the very first Christians knew and understood. They knew that you must be baptized into the covenant community and begin your journey to eternal life. As was said in Acts 2: 38, you are baptized into the remission of sins.

Your idea of being born-again is a late invention of the heretic Charles Grandison Finney in the 1850's. It was never taught prior to that, even by the Reformers, who knew that baptism saves by making you part of the covenant.

Joh 3:6　 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.　
Joh 3:7　 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'　
Joh 3:8　 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."　

When were you born of the Spirit?

April 24, 1950 when I was baptized.

1Co_6:19　 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

If you do not know when you were born of the Spirit, it is you that should run to the nearest church body made up of born-again believers who are filled with the Spirit sent from God.

I was one of those "borned-again" nutcases (Bob Jones Variety - the nutty nutcases) for 13 years. I drank their Kool-Aid until it was coming out my ears. Then slowly I began to find the truth.

BABerean2 · Dec 19, 2016

Light of the East said:
I am already a member of the only Church that matters.
I did not have to seek the permission of any man to join it.

Joh 5:24　 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

And when anyone came to belief in God, it was expected of him that he would join the Church, the quhar in the Old Covenant or the eklesia in the New Covenant. Both words mean the same thing: the congregation of God. It was expected that the convert would undergo the covenant making ritual, which was circumcision in the Old Covenant, or baptism in the New Covenant, and become part of the Church.

Salvation is not "me and Jaaaaayzuz" as your Fundamentalist mindset teaches. Salvation is by becoming one of the family of God, the covenant community, the Church. This idea that you can make a "decision for Jaaaayzuz" (a very recently invented idea) and become a member of God's family is ludicrous and violates every principle of covenant there is.

oh 3:3　 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."　
Joh 3:4　 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"　
Joh 3:5　 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.　

There, I corrected that for you. That is what the very first Christians knew and understood. They knew that you must be baptized into the covenant community and begin your journey to eternal life. As was said in Acts 2: 38, you are baptized into the remission of sins.

Your idea of being born-again is a late invention of the heretic Charles Grandison Finney in the 1850's. It was never taught prior to that, even by the Reformers, who knew that baptism saves by making you part of the covenant.

Joh 3:6　 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.　
Joh 3:7　 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'　
Joh 3:8　 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."　

When were you born of the Spirit?

April 24, 1950 when I was baptized.

1Co_6:19　 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

If you do not know when you were born of the Spirit, it is you that should run to the nearest church body made up of born-again believers who are filled with the Spirit sent from God.

I was one of those "borned-again" nutcases (Bob Jones Variety - the nutty nutcases) for 13 years. I drank their Kool-Aid until it was coming out my ears. Then slowly I began to find the truth.

Well then, lets just splash some water on babies and sign them up for the Papal system.

There is only one small problem...

Joh 20:20　 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.　
Joh 20:21　 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you."　
Joh 20:22　 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.　
Joh 20:23　 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."　

You forgot to mention that there were other disciples present besides Peter. Christ "breathed" the Holy Spirit on them, instead of splashing them with water. Paul made it clear that Baptism was not a focus of his ministry.

1Co 1:17　 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
　

You did not learn anything about the New Covenant from the "Bob Jones" types, because an understanding of the New Covenant destroys their Two Peoples of God doctrine found in the Scofield Reference Bible. You have traded one error for another.

The reference to "water" in John 3 is clearly a reference to the childbirth that Nicodemus had just mentioned, as in amniotic fluid.

.

Light of the East · Dec 19, 2016

Well then, lets just splash some water on babies and sign them up for the Papal system.

Splashing water is not the correct way to baptize. To properly show the death, burial, and glorious resurrection of the Lord, you immerse the one being baptized.

There is only one small problem...

Joh 20:20　 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.　
Joh 20:21　 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you."　
Joh 20:22　 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.　
Joh 20:23　 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."　

You forgot to mention that there were other disciples present besides Peter. Christ "breathed" the Holy Spirit on them, instead of splashing them with water. Paul made it clear that Baptism was not a focus of his ministry.

Yes, all twelve of the Apostles were there. They were all given the Great Commission to go out and baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Baptism is the ritual of covenant entrance, just as circumcision was in the Old Covenant.

1Co 1:17　 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
　
You did not learn anything about the New Covenant from the "Bob Jones" types, because an understanding of the New Covenant destroys their Two Peoples of God doctrine found in the Scofield Reference Bible. You have traded one error for another.

The reference to "water" in John 3 is clearly a reference to the childbirth that Nicodemus had just mentioned, as in amniotic fluid.

That last paragraph is typical silliness from someone who is desperately trying to defend a new heresy. Here, I'll say it for you one more time -- no one taught your "believer's baptism" heresy until it was invented during the Reformation, 15 centuries after Christ and the Apostles.

Now you can believe anything you want to believe. You can deny the facts. But greater, smarter, and more brilliant minds than you and I put together did not believe in, teach, or in any way understand baptism in the way you do in the first 15 centuries of the Christian faith.

The Covenant of the Aaronic Priesthood extended to Gentiles: Is this Possible?

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