Mathematically Speaking?

[Neogaia777]

If there are truly two possible outcomes, then how would He be able to know which with 100% certainty?

Now you could argue that He could make plans around both, and maybe you are meant at some point in the future to arrive at the same point in the future no matter what, etc, and He could know that, etc, but if there is truly more than one possibility in-between, then how could He know which until after you actually choose, etc? Which would mean, it would always be just as much a mystery to Him which way you will choose until you actually do, etc? Which would mean "He doesn't know" until after that happens, and it would make it very hard to pre-arrange/foreordain anything around that, unless there were always certain points along the way that you were always going to arrive at anyway, etc, but as for the in-between, he couldn't know which way you would go or choose if there was truly more than one possibility, etc.

I happen to know, from a lot of personal experience personally, because He has shown me over and over again, many, many times, etc, that He always knows where everything is going to be/what it's going to be doing/what way it's going to be choosing, everywhere at all times personally, etc. And in my mind, he could only know that always, down to every atom and molecule, only if there is/was/always has been, only one way this can all ever go personally, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Ophiolite]

Now you could argue that He could make plans around both, and maybe you are meant at some point in the future to arrive at the same point in the future no matter what, etc, and He could know that, etc, but if there is truly more than one possibility in-between, then how could He know which until after you actually choose, etc? Which would mean, it would always be just as much a mystery to Him which way you will choose until you actually do, etc? Which would mean "He doesn't know" until after that happens, and it would make it very hard to pre-arrange/foreordain anything around that, unless there were always certain points along the way that you were always going to arrive at anyway, etc, but as for the in-between, he couldn't know which way you would go or choose if there was truly more than one possibility, etc.

So you doubt that God would be unaware of the power of a simple If statement in programming?

Neogaia777, all of these questions have the appearance of someone in the early stages of questioning their faith. I am not going to be complicit in that so I shall try to refrain from interacting further in this thread.

 

[Neogaia777]

He is omniscient. (Correct me if I am wrong, but many (most?) Christian denomination believe him to be omniscient.)
He stands outside of time. Therefore he can see the past and the future simultaneously. Rather, there is no difference between them for him.

He knows where everything is always going to be at any given moment in time, every nanosecond in time, down to every single atom and molecule of everything, etc, and I know this because He has shown me this, etc. Now how does He already know that, unless that is the only way it could ever go or happen or be personally? More than one real possibility means you can't know that until afterwards personally. But with only one possibility, you very, very easily can personally, etc.

This doesn't just have to apply to a God, but any being. If I for example, say that I know what way you are going to choose something with 100% certainty, and it is 100%, and I'm not lying about that personally, then how can you choose the other possibility that is absolutely 0% personally? 0 means 0, in that it's not ever possible that you can choose any other way any differently, and it's the only way I can know with 100% certainty, etc, otherwise it is other percentages, which means that I don't how how you are going to choose whichever way you do personally, and I couldn't predict anything in-between with 100% certainty, etc, because I wouldn't know until it after it was chosen or done by you personally, etc.

This leads to believe that everything is determined/caused by whatever is before it going all the way back to the beginning, and there is always just only one way it can ever go personally. I also don't think I see people choosing, but what I see is cause and effect, going all the way back to the very beginning personally. People decide based on whatever has happened, or was already happening with them, or on the inside of them, in those very moments personally, and someone with a full knowledge of all of that, it would be very, very easy to have always fully known everything based on that personally.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

So you doubt that God would be unaware of the power of a simple If statement in programming?

If there is an if statement in programming, it is based on some kind of input that is going to be done that no one yet knows yet personally, etc.

And right now we're talking about absolute full omniscience or not, etc, or else maybe only partial omniscience (which isn't really omniscience) personally, etc.

And I'm not questioning my faith, as I already know this kind of God already personally, and we have a personal relationship already personally, etc.

You should try it sometime, because it's pretty dang awesome personally.

He'll blow your mind with his ability to pre-arrange/foreordain things thousands of different times in your own personal life as your just normally going about your day, or are just normally going through it personally, etc.

And He already did it, long, long ago already, etc. Anyway, it'll blow your mind personally, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Lost4words]

God is all knowing....

 

[Neogaia777]

You should try it sometime, because it's pretty dang awesome personally.

He'll blow your mind with his ability to pre-arrange/foreordain things thousands of different times in your own personal life as your just normally going about your day, or are just normally going through it personally, etc.

And He already did it, long, long ago already, etc. Anyway, it'll blow your mind personally, etc.

God Bless.

The problem with some of these "arrangements", or whatever you want to call them, etc, for me right now at least, (although I don't expect the rest of you to have this kind of problem with it unless you have attracted this kind of attention personally, etc), is that man is/has been interfering, etc. And so I am sometimes having trouble knowing whether it is from God, or man, or some other source personally, etc, and that is is the problem I am right now having with it currently, etc.

And man has also labeled it as some form of paranoid schizophrenia, or some other type of mental problem, or disability, etc. And so I took that label when this all first started out initially, etc. As at that time, it was kind of hellish, or was a bit of hell, or was very, very difficult initially, etc. But I think that was/still is only due to man's or some other sources interfering or trying to interfere constantly, etc. But I don't expect the rest of you to have this same exact kind of problem with it personally, etc. But that that kind of problem with it is only for those who have attracted too much negative attention from man or some other source besides God personally, etc.

Some of it only could have been God, etc, which has helped just a little bit with it personally, etc.

But please notice that I just only said "just a little bit with it" though maybe personally, etc.

But if it weren't for the confusion of sources, which I don't expect the rest of you to have, then this would probably be a lot, lot more pleasant experience personally, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

The problem with some of these "arrangements", or whatever you want to call them, etc, for me right now at least, (although I don't expect the rest of you to have this kind of problem with it unless you have attracted this kind of attention personally, etc), is that man is/has been interfering, etc. And so I am sometimes having trouble knowing whether it is from God, or man, or some other source personally, etc, and that is is the problem I am right now having with it currently, etc.

And man has also labeled it as some form of paranoid schizophrenia, or some other type of mental problem, or disability, etc. And so I took that label when this all first started out initially, etc. As at that time, it was kind of hellish, or was a bit of hell, or was very, very difficult initially, etc. But I think that was/still is only due to man's or some other sources interfering or trying to interfere constantly, etc. But I don't expect the rest of you to have this same exact kind of problem with it personally, etc. But that that kind of problem with it is only for those who have attracted too much negative attention from man or some other source besides God personally, etc.

Some of it only could have been God, etc, which has helped just a little bit with it personally, etc.

But please notice that I just only said "just a little bit with it" though maybe personally, etc.

But if it weren't for the confusion of sources, which I don't expect the rest of you to have, then this would probably be a lot, lot more pleasant experience personally, etc.

God Bless.

With the confusion of sources, you don't know if you can always trust the sources, which makes this a lot, lot more difficult personally. You don't know/can't trust it's intent, whether it is good, or malicious, which makes this a lot, lot more difficult personally.

And as far as man's interference goes, there were or are times when I think his intent can be good, but he's really "not helping" with this, and so I wish he would just stay out of it most of the time personally, etc.

But I don't expect the rest of you to have these kinds of problems with it personally, etc.

God Bless.

 

[tdidymas]

In my opinion it is the ones insisting of having their own, not already made up or determined by God, free wills, and also the ones who are not getting this, who are the ones wanting to be their own gods.

This is very, very simple, and I just cannot simple believe that none of you are getting it, other than it's just your own rebelliousness, and wanting to be your own God, independent of God, etc.

God Bless.

Not sure what you mean by "none of you are getting it" - are you talking generally to the forum? Because if you're talking about autonomy (self-determination) being the essence of sin, I agree with you.

 

[partinobodycular]

In my opinion it is the ones insisting of having their own, not already made up or determined by God, free wills, and also the ones who are not getting this, who are the ones wanting to be their own gods.

I'm curious as to why you think that we can't have both. Perhaps my free will IS an expression of God's free will. Like a Jackson Pollock painting, the creative brilliance of the artist is expressed in the unbridled freedom of the creation.

Maybe we're too stuck on the idea of God the 'Designer' to be able to appreciate the real essence of God the 'Creator', giving life not to a cold, hard predetermined automaton, but to the full height and breadth of emotion itself, replete with the love and hate, aspirations and regrets, born out of the greatest gifts of all... life and the free will to experience every resplendent moment of it. Certainly we're that... not a mindless automaton. We're alive.

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm curious as to why you think that we can't have both. Perhaps my free will IS an expression of God's free will. Like a Jackson Pollock painting, the creative brilliance of the artist is expressed in the unbridled freedom of the creation.

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Maybe we're too stuck on the idea of God the 'Designer' to be able to appreciate the real essence of God the 'Creator', giving life not to a cold, hard predetermined automaton, but to the full height and breadth of emotion itself, replete with the love and hate, aspirations and regrets, born out of the greatest gifts of all... life and the free will to experience every resplendent moment of it. Certainly we're that... not a mindless automaton. We're alive.

I can see why you might think that, and I can respect that, and I think you're very, very beautiful because if it, etc.

If I were there with you in person right now I might kiss you, or give you a hug, you very, very beautiful soul you, etc.

God Bless.

 

[NxNW]

He stands outside of time. Therefore he can see the past and the future simultaneously. Rather, there is no difference between them for him.

What is your source for this assertion that any being can exist outside time?

 

[NxNW]

He'll blow your mind with his ability to pre-arrange/foreordain things thousands of different times in your own personal life as your just normally going about your day, or are just normally going through it personally, etc.

And He already did it, long, long ago already, etc. Anyway, it'll blow your mind personally, etc.

In other words, we lack free will.

 

[Ophiolite]

What is your source for this assertion that any being can exist outside time?

First keep in mind I don't think the Christian God exists, and the relationship of any other god, or gods that might exist to time is well above my pay grade.

The sentence you quote was a follow on to a post in which I offered a resolution to @Neogaia777 's dilema surrounding free will and predestination. The resolution was a combination of observations and simple* logic. The notion that God could exist outside of time I have seen presented on many occassions, by a wide variety of people, so I do not know its original source. Nor do I know with any certainty what it means because I am not smart enough to understand what time is. But that very ignorance affords one great freedom in postulating all sorts of things that may be nonsense. (Or might have made sense to Neogaia and thus resolved his confusion.)

*simple logic - a concept akin to common sense; one can appeal to it, but it's probably not really logic.

 

[tdidymas]

First keep in mind I don't think the Christian God exists, and the relationship of any other god, or gods that might exist to time is well above my pay grade.

The sentence you quote was a follow on to a post in which I offered a resolution to @Neogaia777 's dilema surrounding free will and predestination. The resolution was a combination of observations and simple* logic. The notion that God could exist outside of time I have seen presented on many occassions, by a wide variety of people, so I do not know its original source. Nor do I know with any certainty what it means because I am not smart enough to understand what time is. But that very ignorance affords one great freedom in postulating all sorts of things that may be nonsense. (Or might have made sense to Neogaia and thus resolved his confusion.)

*simple logic - a concept akin to common sense; one can appeal to it, but it's probably not really logic.

Wouldn't you say that time is simply a series of changes in the physical universe? So one iteration of time would correspond to one iteration of changes. Everything is moving, and it's a matter of measuring the iterations consistently that we come up with seconds, seasons, etc. standardized by the atomic clock.

 

[SelfSim]

Wouldn't you say that time is simply a series of changes in the physical universe? So one iteration of time would correspond to one iteration of changes. Everything is moving, and it's a matter of measuring the iterations consistently that we come up with seconds, seasons, etc. standardized by the atomic clock.

Here's a couple questions you may find intriguing:
i) What does it take to notice 'a series of changes' or 'iterations' in a physical universe?
ii) If that 'noticing thing' there doesn't exist, would time exist? Why?

 

[weekEd]

Can anyone know the outcome of a choice 100% absolutely with the chances or possibilities or that choice being anything other than absolutely zero, or absolutely 100%?

This is for any theoretical being who supposedly knows absolutely everything, etc?

Can "it" know absolutely everything absolutely, without the possibilities being anything other than absolutely zero, or absolutely 100% absolutely, etc?

Discussion?

God Bless.

Can anyone know the outcome of a choice 100% absolutely with the chances or possibilities or that choice being anything other than absolutely zero, or absolutely 100%?

This is for any theoretical being who supposedly knows absolutely everything, etc?

Can "it" know absolutely everything absolutely, without the possibilities being anything other than absolutely zero, or absolutely 100% absolutely, etc?

Discussion?

God Bless.

in a closed system
geesh...

 

[Neogaia777]

If I know with 100% certainty which way you are going to choose, then there is never any other kind of real possibility of another way it can go, right, etc?

But if it's not 100%, or is some kind of other percentage between the two (or more), etc, then I can't know which way you are going to choose for sure, correct? And there is, therefore, some things I not only don't know, but absolutely cannot know, correct?

And for any being to be 100% truly all-knowing, etc, then He/She/It would have to know them all, correct?

Which means, no free will, and all has already been chosen/decided for us, and there is never any other way any of this can ever go, correct?

I don't see how your missing the math or the logic here, as it's really very, very simple, etc, and is the whole point of me making this entire thread, etc?

Which also leads into the subject of this entire universe all being 100% absolutely deterministic from the very beginning, and down to it's very ending, and everything in-between, correct?

Unless I am missing something here, etc?

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

If I know with 100% certainty which way you are going to choose, then there is never any other kind of real possibility of another way it can go, right, etc?

But if it's not 100%, or is some kind of other percentage between the two (or more), etc, then I can't know which way you are going to choose for sure, correct? And there is, therefore, some things I not only don't know, but absolutely cannot know, correct?

And for any being to be 100% truly all-knowing, etc, then He/She/It would have to know them all, correct?

Which means, no free will, and all has already been chosen/decided for us, and there is never any other way any of this can ever go, correct?

I don't see how your missing the math or the logic here, as it's really very, very simple, etc, and is the whole point of me making this entire thread, etc?

Which also leads into the subject of this entire universe all being 100% absolutely deterministic from the very beginning, and down to it's very ending, and everything in-between, correct?

Unless I am missing something here, etc?

God Bless.

And if I don't know, but I know a lot of things, then I can run a calculation among what is going to be the most possible, or most likely, but it's never going to be 100%, because there are some things I don't know 100% absolutely, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Ophiolite]

Wouldn't you say that time is simply a series of changes in the physical universe? So one iteration of time would correspond to one iteration of changes. Everything is moving, and it's a matter of measuring the iterations consistently that we come up with seconds, seasons, etc. standardized by the atomic clock.

Perhaps one could say that, but I would then ask you to define, without a trace of ambiguity, "series" and "change".

The definition of series might include the idea that events (we would need to define "event" also) either follow or precede each other. However, we know from relativity that the order (definition please) in which events seem to occur is dependent upon reference frame (more definitions) and the like. As I said, it's well above my pay grade.

 

[Bob Crowley]

God's omniscience means He knows all things which is what I think this debate is about.

As CS Lewis put it in one of his essays 'watching a thief break into a house is not the same thing as making him break into the house.'

The decision to break into the house is the thief's, but God watched him thinking about it and then doing it. One day He will hold the thief to account for it.

God simply "sees" everything - past, present and future - which is an alien concept to us, especially the future. We all have a known past and present but not a known future.

Like us the devil can't see the future either but God can.

Hence we have "free will" as God simply monitors our choices without interfering with them.

Material objects simply follow a system of cause and effect. Quantum uncertainty wouldn't bother God either since He'd know the outcome anyway.