Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?

[oikonomia]

Heaven means the sky, as defined in Genesis,

Sometimes that is the meaning.

Then we have Christ passing through the heavens and being made higher than the heavens. (Eph. 4:10; Heb. 4:14)
In the universe as we know it there is apparently something which God reveals beyond as in an ascending Son of God could pass through
and be higher than.

I believe the "third heaven" spoken of in the Bible is another divine realm.
It is perculiar to me that modern man considering himself more sophisticated proposes thoeries no less difficult to imagine.
Ie. curved space/time, multiverse, parallel universes, quantum entanglement etc. These are put forth to believe as if they are more palatable concepts.

I think Jesus has an approvedness such that His belief in reliable. It says in the mighty prayer of John 17
that He "lifted up His eyes to heaven."

These things Jesus spoke, and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son that the Son may glorify You;(John 17:1)

The Son of God must have had some concept of the place of His and "Our Father who is in heaven" has realism though beyond
our experience.

it does not mean another dimension or some outer-space place.
John wrote what he saw, Revelation 1:19, John saw a great multitude in the sky.

This is not reliable. We see also in Revelation 6 with the opening of the sixth seal the heaven
rolled back as a scroll.

And I saw when He opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; And the stars of heaven fell to the earth as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.
And heaven was removed like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (Rev. 6:12-14)

The sign conveys that this physical universe can be shaken and what lies beyond it can be dramatically manifested.
Truly, there is something beyond where God's adminstration is supreme. -"You will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

There is too much in the Bible indicating a divine realm transcending the celestial realm.

Where in scripture are you getting the idea of a rapture from,
if you agree that 1 Thess 4:16-17 and 1 Cor. 15:51-58 are about the same thing?

Both passages refer to not the first early rapture but the latter one.

Paul says we will be in the air, in the clouds with Christ, and Revelation 19:14 is describing such, an army in the sky with Christ.
Indeed in Bible hub for the king james 'which were' in Rev 19:14 is in italics, a good physical Bible will show it in italics also.

It occurs to me that I already responded to this post.
Sorry. You can find my first reply above I imagine.

The idea that heaven is some distant place, is not in the Bible.
Clearly Revelation 21:1-2 states that the heavenly city comes down.
"Heaven" our ultimate and eternal paradise is that city that comes down.

The New Jerusalem is at first glance a meeting of heaven with earth.
But in light of the whole Bible what that is really revealing is a union and mingling of divinity with humanity.

Its source is from heaven even as "the kingdom of the heavens" in Matthew means the SOURCE and the ORIGIN of
God's kingdom is from heaven not of the Satan usurped earth.

God's plan has always to unite with His redeemed people in an "organic" union of blending - such as Jesus Christ is God-man.
New Jerusalem is the enlargement of God mingled with humanity. Her source is from heaven.

New Jerusalem "coming down out of heaven from God" is similar to Jesus as the bread of life which came down from heaven.

 

[contratodo]

This is not reliable. We see also in Revelation 6 with the opening of the sixth seal the heaven
rolled back as a scroll.

the sky rolled back as a scroll.

the sky, which is hard as a molten looking glass Job 37:18

"And the sky split apart as a scroll when it is rolled together" is the literal translation of Revelation 6:14

"And all the host of the sky shall be dissolved, and the sky shall be rolled together as a scroll:
and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falls off from the vine;
and as the falling of a fig from a fig tree."
Isaiah 34:4


The agents of the enemy, the beast and false prophet, will speak blaspheme about what is beyond the sky; Revelation 13:6.
The enemy has lied about the nature of the sky, and about what is outside of the sky.
In the end God destroys the sky, revealing all truth, and the city of heaven comes down.

Heaven is a literal city with streets of literal transparent gold that is literally on top of the sky.
The sky, which is hard as a molten looking glass.

 

[contratodo]

Both passages refer to not the first early rapture but the latter one.

Which passage of scripture refers to the first early rapture?

And I think you want to use Revelation 12 for that, and I edited my last post, so the first response you saw today,
to address that. But you would need more than Revelation 12, because 1 Thess 4:16-17 and 1 Cor. 15:51-58 are before Revelation.
Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and 1 Corinthains 15:51-58 are all about the same event,
the glorious second coming of the Lord, it is at that time that many will be resurrected and changed, in the twinkling of an eye.

His return is also the glorious return of the captives, from even death, back to Israel.
"Oh my people, I will open up your graves and bring you into the land of Israel."
Ezekiel 37:1-15 is the first prophesy concerning the resurrection of the nation.
It also links up with Matthew Thess and Cor.

And with Revelation, they give the same timeline:
Ezekiel 37:1-15 = Resurrections
Ezekiel 37:15-24 = Reign
Ezekiel 38 and 39 = Gog and Magog

Revelation 20:4-5 = Resurrections
Revelation 20:5-7 = Reign
Revelation 20:7-10 = Gog and Magog

There is only 1 resurrection event.

 

[oikonomia]

the sky rolled back as a scroll.

the sky, which is hard as a molten looking glass Job 37:18

That makes it all the more astounding. Don't you think?

"And the sky split apart as a scroll when it is rolled together" is the literal translation of Revelation 6:14

"And all the host of the sky shall be dissolved, and the sky shall be rolled together as a scroll:
and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falls off from the vine;
and as the falling of a fig from a fig tree."
Isaiah 34:4


The agents of the enemy, the beast and false prophet, will speak blaspheme about what is beyond the sky; Revelation 13:6.

Now, the beast emmerges to do these things because his master Satan has just been permently expelled from
appearing before God to accuse the saints.

If you step backwards through the chain of events from Revelation 13:6 you will see this hopefully.
Then we will look at it forwards.

Why does Antichrist emmerge and blaspheme?
Because Satan is furious knowing that he has only a short time on earth.

Why does he have only a short time on earth?
Because the angels as servants of the saints have driven him down from heaven.

Why did this happen?
Because finally a stronger component of the whole body of God's saints was rapture to heaven
putting to shame the accuser.

Why did this resurrection and rapture happen?
Because at a certain time God had collected a Gideon like army (a minority) who won the
spiritual warfare on earth. Now suddenly it is time for them to do the same in the heavens.

Why is there a need to do the same in the heavens?
Because as in the book of Job from time to time Satan shows up to accuse the people of God that
they are all weak, defeated, and have not expressed God's image and dominion.

 

[oikonomia]

Now lets look at it moving forward. (Revelation 12:5 - 13:1,5,6)

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
This is the rapture of the stronger component of the larger body of God's people.

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.
This rapture is the catalyst for the GT persecution of the majority of saints left on earth through 3.5 years.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels.
The good angels who serve the saints who are to inherit salvation (Heb. 1:14) are activated to do their job as a result of the man-child's rapture.

And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven.
The good angels prevail because a critical mass of overcoming human saints have prevailed. Satan and his angels are driven down for good.

And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.
Satan who roams around on earth and occasionally had freedom to slander and accuse before God in heaven is now [edited] limited.
He has lost that ground and is henceforth restricted to the surface of the earth.

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
This is reason to rejoice. Out of the greater majority of God's people a remnant has risen above the accusations of Satan.
They are not defeated. They are normal - victorious through Christ.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.
Three crucial components exist to their victory.
1.) They stand on the redemption of Christ and refuse to move from it.
2.) They stand on the facts as God has told them and refuse to let feelings or blame rob them of victory.
3.) They took up the cross to deny the self and follow the Lord, even unto martyrdom.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time.
Thier victory is reason to rejoice, those raptured to heaven. However it means WOE to those left on earth where Satan is now
limited to his fury to act only on earth. His slandering mouth has been shut and can no longer accuse all of God's saints as being
defeated by him.

And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child.
Satan furious now goes after the saints left on earth hoping to prevent any more overcomers from being produced.

And to the woman there were given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time from the face of the serpent.
God certainly has not forsaken the majority of His children on earth. He makes provision for them in measure through the GT.

And the serpent cast water as a river out of his mouth after the woman that he might cause her to be carried away by its current.
This is the intense effort to carry the saints on earth away by Satanic lies and evil armies of his government.

And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Some kind of spectacular assistence from God helps them. Probably this is related to God controlling the powers of the natural world.

And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.
The persecution will be against the elect Jews and the Christians in particular - those who keep the commandments of God and those
of the church who have the the testimony of Jesus.

And he stood on the sand of the sea.
Satan is now restricted to the earth and is active especially around the Mediterranean Sea.

And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and on his heads names of blasphemy.
Satan summons up the Antichrist as a man invested with all of his Satanic authority. The rest is plan to see what this beast does.
That will include baspheming those who were raptured. Perhaps he will boast that the earth should be glad that they are all gone.
For now Antichrist and his false prophet can rule the planet.

And there was given to him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and authority was given to him to act for forty-two months. And he opened his mouth for blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, which tabernacle in heaven.

His end is abject and total defeat by Christ and the overcomers who come down with Him.
This is seen though in chapter 17 and 19.

These [earthly kings devoted to Antichrist] will make war with the Lamb [Christ], and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, [overcomers previously raptured] will also overcome them. (Rev. 17:14)

And the armies which are in heaven [raptured overcomers] followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. (Rev. 19:14,15)

 

[keras]

Revelation 12 passage describes a woman, a child, and a dragon. A superficial reading of the text instantly brings to mind Mary, Jesus, and Satan, who are certainly significant, prophetic types, but there is more to it than that.

The sign represents these individuals in a historical context, but also as larger, corporate entities. Biblical scholars have often understood the woman to represent Mary as an individual and as corporately: the true of Israelites of God.

Likewise, the dragon clearly represents Satan as an individual and also the entire world system opposed to God. However, while the same scholars have observed that the male child is a symbol of Christ, they've missed the pattern. Just as the woman and dragon have corporate meanings, the male child does, too - it is Jesus and the collective body of Christians. 1 Corinthians 12:12

At no time is it said that any Christian's will go to heaven. The place of safety where half of the Christian people will be taken to, Revelation 12:14, is an earthly location. proved by how the earth swallows the army sent by Satan. Rev 12:16

 

[contratodo]

Why does Antichrist emmerge and blaspheme?
Because Satan is furious knowing that he has only a short time on earth.

Why does he have only a short time on earth?
Because the angels as servants of the saints have driven him down from heaven.

Before Revelation was written five people in the beasts office had come and gone.

"And there are seven kings; five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come;
and when he comes, he must continue a short while.
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth and is of the seven,
and goes into destruction" Revelation 17:10-11

And what of Jesus' saying that He beheld Satan fall as lighting?

And of 2 Peter 2:4 ?
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to tartarus...

I think that Revelation is telling a repeated prophesy.
Revelation chapter 5-7 tells the whole prophecy in one unique way.
Revelation chapter 8-9 repeats the prophecy in a different way and giving different details.
Chapter 10 and 11 give some specific details of events and people during the prophetic happenings.
Chapter 12 tells the whole prophesy over again in yet another way.
Chapter 13 gives more specific details related to the same details given in 11.
Chapter 15 and 16 tell the prophesy over yet again in a different way and giving different details.
Chapters 17 and 18 give more details as related to 13 and 11.
Chapters 19 to the end describe the glorious consummation of time.

And so chapter 12 is telling a whole complete prophesy, going over all of time from Christ to the end.
Revelation 12:1 The nation of Israel from which the Messiah descends.
Revelation 12:4 ... and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to give birth
for to (try to) devour her child as soon as it was born.
[ That is what happened: Matthew 2:13-16 ]

Notice something also with Matthew 2:15-16.
Verse 15 speaks of how they stayed until Herod was dead, then verse 16 continues on with Herod causing all the children to be killed.
One could read verse 15 and think that Herod died in that verse, but we then notice in the next verse how the passage is laid out.

Similarly in Revelation 12:4 it speaks of the stars being cast down to the earth and the dragon standing before the woman,
but does not speak of the war that initiated that until verse Revelation 12:7.

And Christ tells us that He saw Satan fall down like lightning
Luke 10:18

Be sober be vigilant because your adversary the devil
walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour
1 Peter 5:8

Putting everything together with Revelation 12 we can see the whole story,
when Jesus was born there was war in heaven and the devil and his angels were cast out.
The first thing they did is try to kill Jesus as a baby.

"Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God,
and the power of His Messiah:
because the accuser of our brethren is cast down"
Revelation 12:10

Salvation is come because the accuser is cast down to the earth?
The kingdom of our God, the power of His Messiah?
Salvation came when the Messiah came down!
Just as Jesus said, He saw satan fall, so powerful, even as a baby satan could not kill Him.
He died exactly how He planned to die, even though satan tried hard to get Him to die in any other way.


"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle,
that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place (the land of Israel)
where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time"
Revelation 12:14

Seventy captivities are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city....
Daniel 9:24
In between those 70 year captivities there have been times of peace.

After seven captivities and 62 weeks, starting from the Babylonian captivity,
the Messiah suffered the death penalty, but not for Himself.
[ Daniel 9:26, Daniel 9:1-2, Jeremiah 25:12,18,26, Daniel 1:21, 2 Chronicles 36:21-23 ]

"....and the end thereof shall be with a flood..." Daniel 9:26

"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman"
Revelation 12:15

And the dragon was mad with the woman,
and went to make war with the rest of her seed,
which keep the commands of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 12:17

....Satan shall be loosed from his prison,
and shall go out to deceive
the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth,
to gather them together for battle (war): the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:7-8

 

[oikonomia]

Allow me, contradado, time to read carefully this post above.
Thanks for your labor on it. In time maybe I can give some reply in sections.

I liked it a lot. And it has much that I believe.
I would bring to your study a few things.

Hopefully we can continue to uplift and glorify the Lord Jesus as you have here.
Much digestion is needed for this post. Stay tuned.

 

[oikonomia]

Before Revelation was written five people in the beasts office had come and gone.

"And there are seven kings; five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come;
and when he comes, he must continue a short while.
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth and is of the seven,
and goes into destruction" Revelation 17:10-11

Please pray for me that I continue to exalt Jesus Christ in all this discussion.
It is easy to get distracted from the spirit of the prophecy which is "the testimony of Jesus."
For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy. (Rev. 19:10)

A ceasar of the Roman Empire will yet arise. He will be one of the ceasars who lived and died in the past.
The coming ceasar will have the body of a contempory man but be killed.
Then he will be resuscited with the same body but the spirit of Nero.
This will be a supernatural "compound" person of Satanic authority.
That is the slain and raised body of a coming world leader yet alive again with the soul and spirit of Nero.

This is brief. And you may already know what I am talling about.
Enough for now for the Antichrist.
For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy. (Rev. 19:10)

And what of Jesus' saying that He beheld Satan fall as lighting?

When the seventy went out by twos and cast out demons, healed the sick, and raised the dead,
Jesus who sent them with divine authroity spoke that He saw Satan fall from heaven like lightening.

I think the most important thing about this is Satan falls here because man is invested again with
image and dominion over the creation as was ordained by God in Genesis.

And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth. (Gen. 1:26)

My burden here is not the WHEN in history that Jesus said He saw Satan fall but mainly the WHY.
Man was created for the purpose of expressing God and reigning with God especially over the "avenger" and "advasaries".

Psalm eight is a psalm about the purpose of the creation of man.

O Jehovah our Lord, / How excellent is Your name / In all the earth, / You who have set Your glory over the heavens!
Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings / You have established strength
/ Because of Your adversaries, / To stop the enemy and the avenger. (Psalm 8:1,2)

Luke 10:18 when the disciples came back from thier mission, recieved this encouraging confirmation from the Son of God.

And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.
And He said to them, I was watching Satan fall like lightning out of heaven.

Behold, I have given you the authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. However do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in the heavens.

This victory was a preview a foretaste of the church's restoral of the recovery of why God created man in the beginning.
That is that man bear the image of God and excercise the dominion of God over His creation. And especially God
wanted the created man to have dominion over the pre-adamic avenger and his advasaries the evil angels and the
disembodied spirits of pre-adamic beings who are today's demons.

The church must have a remnant of overcoming ones who with Christ crush the head of he who would usurp the planet from God and His purpose.

Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. (Rom. 16:20)

Please read on. The difference between the display of authority of the 70 disciples in Luke 10 and the millennial kingdom is
that they had a borrowed power as a demonstration. But through the church age God wroughts into man not a borrowed
power but the power of His life living in them. God works Himself into men. God wroughts Christ into men.
God mingles His life and nature into man.

Then the defeat of Satan and his fall from heaven is realized in the ultimate.
This is necessarily brief. This is concise for a post.
Jesus encourges us all who are of the church that man with God built into him and he mingled with God
will be the demise of Satan. And Satan knows it even if much of the church is yet ignorant of it.

Christ is made the head over all things to the church - transmitting His great power and authority down through the Body
from Himself as the Head.

And what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the operation of the might of His strength,
Which He caused to operate in Christ in raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavenlies,

Far above all rule and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named not only in this age but also in that which is to come; And He subjected all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church,

Which is His Body, the fullness of the One who fills all in all. (Eph. 1:19-23)

I must stop here but would like time to respond more to your important post.
Please let's pray for each other that we not be distracted from the focus and center of Revelation - the Lord Jesus Christ.
Amen.

 

[oikonomia]

And of 2 Peter 2:4 ?
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to tartarus...

Some particularly more heinious of all the evil angels were so bad that they received special confimement.
These are the angels which involved in marriage unions with humans in the time of Noah.

Not all Satan's angels have yet been so confined. But this group were too terrible to not be.

The cause:
The sons of God [angels - Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7] saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they took wives for themselves from all whom they chose. (Gen. 6:2)
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days — and also afterward — when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; these were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. (v.4)

The result:
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned but delivered them to gloomy pits, having cast them down to Tartarus, they being kept for judgment; (2 Pet. 2:4)

The visitation by Jesus in death and proclamation of His victory:
In which also He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
Who had formerly disobeyed when the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was being prepared; (1 Pet. 3:19,20a)

Some of the angels who followed Satan went so far as to try to corrupt the nature of man on such a level
that the offspring of the humans involved produced the beings who became the stuff of ancient legions
like Mercury, Zeus, Hercules, and other mixed dimi-gods, etc. of long ago - the "fallen ones" aka "giants [KJV]"

. . . these were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. (Gen. 6"4b)

We do not know the depths of the ancient occult cooperation between men and Satan.

We do not know how sinful men could so open the door to the occult to allow angelic / human marriage.
Though I cannot explain this evil I have learned that we cannot presume to say Satan could not go so far.
Remember that the Egyptian magicians were able to imitate the first two or so miracles that Moses did through God's power.
We do not know the limits of this evil of the Devil.

We know Christ knew what they were up to and went to announce the victory of the gospel to them.
That is the chained angels and spirits in the lowest of the lowest parts of the abyss.
And angels who did not keep their own principality but abandoned their own dwelling place, He has kept in eternal bonds under gloom for the judgment of the great day; (Jude 6)

He did not go to get them saved. He went
there during the three days to announce His victory and their defeat.
In which also He [Christ] went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, (1 Pet. 3:19)

 

[oikonomia]

Be sober be vigilant because your adversary the devil
walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour
1 Peter 5:8

Yes, being abiding in Christ is the way to be watching - vigilant.

Throughout history Satan has had freedom to both roam the earth and appear before
God above and accuse His people. He slanders God to man's mind on earth. And he slanders the saints
to God in heaven.

The defeat of Satan progressess in stages. In successive stages he looses more and more and can appear fewer and fewer places.
Before the second coming of Christ a further limitation occurs when he can no longer appear before God to accuse.
The rapture of the stronger part of all God's people - the man-child is the catalyst for this to happen.

They defeated Satan on earth here and there through the ages. And their number accumulates in
the pleasant part of Hades - Abraham's bosom or paradise under the earth.
They are seen in Revelation 6 as the souls beneath the altar crying out for their vindication and the punishment of thier
killers on the earth above.

And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had.

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, holy and true, will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed, even as they were, is completed. (Rev. 6:9-11)

Putting everything together with Revelation 12 we can see the whole story,
when Jesus was born there was war in heaven and the devil and his angels were cast out.
The first thing they did is try to kill Jesus as a baby.

I will never again teach or imagine that this man-child is solely Jesus.
But Jesus is the prototype of what God mass produces over the ages as a corporate man-child.

The proclamation following the man-child's rapture to heaven concerns a group of overcomers.

"Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God,
and the power of His Messiah:
because the accuser of our brethren is cast down"
Revelation 12:10

Go on in your reading and notice the plural pronouns. [my caps]

And THEY overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of THIER testimony, and THEY loved not THIER soul-life even unto death. Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. (vs. 11,12)

This refers not to the individual baby Jesus. Nor to the ascended Jesus after 33.5 years of earth living.
It refers to "our brothers" who have overcome - the collective man-child.

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. (v.10)

You should remember the seven promises to the seven churches to those who overcome in chapters 2,3.
You should also remember that God's intention is to mass-produce sons of God like THE Son of God.
This mass production is to be a corporate built together unit. But they are a duplication of the Firstborn Son as many brothers (Rom. 8:28)

Here we see God's duplicating of His Son who died as a grain of wheat to multiply Himself as such into many grains.
Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. (John 12:24)

Many grains here are produced as the mass production of the one grain. The shell of His humanity was broken in death.
And the divine life of God concealed within Him was dispensed into many grains.

I like the way you realize Revelation cannot be understood as strictly chronologically.
You are right about re-visiting of themes.

What is the chiefest way you found out that there is re-visiting of afore mentioned events?
Perhaps I can suggest how this indication is right there for us in the book itself.

Salvation is come because the accuser is cast down to the earth?

Good point. And my answer -
Salvation and the kingdom come WITHIN His people before it comes OUTSIDE in the world.

For that reason the rapture remnant rejoice that the kingdom and the authority of Christ HAVE COME.
This is brief. Much more needs to be said.

But to your good point the answer is that the kingdom has come within and in the midst of the raptured victors.
It TRULY has come though there is still 3.5 years of the GT to commence.

Read it again in this light.
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, (Rev. 12:10a)

Recall even in the proper prevailing church life the kingdom of God IS . . . not "will be" but IS righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (Rom.4:17)

So the kingdom of God unfolds, develops, matures and that not starting with the second coming. But all along the way
as God dispenses more of His Spirit into those opened to this impartation.

Even John when he was exiled on Patmos was participating in the kingdom of God in endurance.
I John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. (Rev. 1:9)

So the kingdom of God is a growing matter. Mainly the growing of the life of Christ within those whom Christ has been dispensed into.
At each stage in history it is the kingdom of God as God the king growth His life within man.

And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth,
And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthens — how, he does not know.
The earth bears fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then full grain in the ear.
But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come. (Mark 4:26-29)

We should be today in a church life which is growing God's life in man and producing those who overcome.
The climax is that the full crop on earth is ripened and the Harvest of rapture occurs.

But throughout the ages a minority are accumulating which are resurrected and raptured pre- GT
as the stronger overcoming part of the general whole body of God's redeemed.
And when they are they rejoice in thier arriving at the authority and kingdom full invested in the overcomers of the church.

So I teach that the man-child is the collective / corporate / built up together / Gideon like smaller group to
be as the marines to secure the beachhead for the larger invasion of Christ and His victorious overcomers.

It is understandable to me that most Christians would see the birth of Jesus as the man-child.
It is the birth of Jesus YES. But His being dispensed into a group of people.
Their resurrection is considered as a BIRTH.

John 16 helps to see that the resurrection of Christ was considered by Him as more than a "coming back to life."
Rather it was the BIRTH of a whole new divinized humanity - the birth of man in resurrection ever victorious over death.

A woman, when she gives birth, has sorrow because her hour has come; but when she brings forth the little child, she no longer remembers the affliction because of the joy that a man has been born into the world.
Therefore you also now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and no one takes your joy away from you. (John 16:21,22)


I have a song I would like to contribute to the discussion from John 16:21,22.

 

[oikonomia]

A few more songs from the book of Revelation in the meantime.

 

[contratodo]

I like the way you realize Revelation cannot be understood as strictly chronologically.
You are right about re-visiting of themes.

What is the chiefest way you found out that there is re-visiting of afore mentioned events?
Perhaps I can suggest how this indication is right there for us in the book itself.

Your songs are very nice dear one.


Concerning the "man-child", it is Jesus who was born first, and then there were brethren,
those who believe in and follow Jesus.

In Revelation 12:5 we see the life, death, resurrection and ascension of Christ, the man child. [ Hebrews 12:2 Revelation chapter 5 ]
In verse 10 we see the brethren, those who believe in Christ, the man child.
In verse 11 also we see both the brethren and the man child,
"and they (the brethren) overcame the accuser, by the blood of the Lamb (the man child)" Rev 12:11
I think it is a stretch to try to group brethren together as "man child",
the terms and meanings are clearly separate.



Let's notice some things about Revelation and history that we can see.
Revelation five through six is telling a complete prophecy, it ends with the day of the Lord.

"For the great day of His wrath has come; and who shall be able to stand?" Rev 6:17

Revelation chapter six is describing all of time, from Christ to the very end.
I believe that two of the time periods have clearly past us at this point, we are now inside of the black horse period of time.

The colors given denote the time periods, representing different clear things about each.

White, Napoleon loved to be depicted on a white horse, his era was an era of world wide conquest,
the formation of the major nations of the earth as we have them now.
The formation of the kingdom that is the beast.
That time period, from Christ until around the Napoleon era, was the white horse period of time.

Next was red, the most obvious, people like Hitler and Stalin, rode the red horse.
In China children were mandated to carry around little red books about communism,
the color red clearly marks the time. The last war that Poland was in before Hitler, was against Napoleon.

Black is world wide economic collapse. Currently in places like Venezuela one would not have a hard time
convincing them that the economy of the world is going way down. In America, now in walmart,
items that were a dollar 9 months ago are now 4 and 5 dollars.
The Bible tells us that one loaf of bread will cost a days wages, so in America that is about 50-70 dollars for a loaf of bread,
and we can see this is steadily happening.
What it really is is a switch to digital currency, getting ready for the world to buy and sell with the mark.

Pale is the anti-Christ period of time, death personified.
One pale as a vampire that the world at large really believes is Jesus, even doing miracles,
but getting people to pay homage to, another person, and getting them to be marked.

Then the saints cry out for the day of the Lord, 9-11.

Then the day of the Lord happens, 12-17.
Clearly Revelation 6:12-17 is describing the ultimate day of the Lord,
as described in other passages of scripture:
[Revelation six is in blue]

"the sun became black as sackcloth of hair,
and the moon became as blood" 12 [Vision of the prophecy happening]

The sun shall be turned into darkness,
and the moon into blood
before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
Joel 2:31 [Prophecy]

"immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, " Mathew 24:29 [Prophecy]

"And the stars of the sky fell unto the land, even as a fig tree casts forth her untimely figs,
when she is shaken of a mighty wind" 13 [Vision of the prophecy happening]

"and the stars shall fall from the sky, and the powers of the sky shall be shaken"
Matthew 24:29 [Prophecy]

"And all the host of the sky shall be dissolved,
and the sky shall roll together as a scroll;
and all their host shall fall down,
as the leaf falls from the vine,
and as the falling fig from the fig tree."
Isaiah 34:4 [Prophecy]

And the sky departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;
and every mountain and island were moved out of their places
14 [Vision of the prophecy happening]

And (everyone on earth) hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains.
15 [Vision of the prophecy happening]

And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth,
for the fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty,
when He arises to shake terribly the earth.
Isaiah 2:19 [Prophecy]

And said to the mountains and rocks,
Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne,
and from the wrath of the Lamb.
16 [Vision of the prophecy happening]

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in the sky,
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the sky
with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:30 [Prophecy]

For the great day of His wrath has come,
and who is able to stand? 17


Now, the overarching story of John seeing these things intertwines,
he sees them in the given order, but what he is seeing is a repeated prophecy.

In chapters 7-14 we get the prophecy told over again, and with different details.

We can see that it is a repeated prophecy, given the completeness of chapter 6 (shown above)
and also the clear relation of Rev 9:11 to Rev 11:7 and Rev 17:8.

 

[keras]

In chapters 7-14 we get the prophecy told over again, and with different details.

Not true.
Seals 1 to 5 were opened when Jesus Ascended. We await the Sixth Seal, which will set the scene for all that must happen before Jesus Returns.

Revelation 6:12-17;
I watched as the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal, – At this moment a Coronal Mass Ejection will explode out from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 3:8, Jeremiah 23:19 Triggered by the attack onto Israel, as per Psalms 83, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 50:1-3, 2 Peter 3:7

There was a violent earthquake – The microwave effect of the short wave spectrum penetrates the earth’s crust, triggering worldwide earthquakes by tectonic plate movement. Haggai 2:6, Deuteronomy 32:22, Isaiah 26:18-20, Amos 8:8-9, Psalms 18:7

The sun turned black as a funeral pall – Acts 2:20 The approaching mass of the CME will obscure the sun. Joel 2:31, Amos 5:20

The moon became a red as blood – Joel 2:31 The superheated hydrogen plasma strikes the moon and causes a thermoluminescent reaction with the metallic oxides of the moon dust. As well as: the bright red reflection of the initial flash. Isaiah 30:26a

The stars in the sky fell like ripe figs – All our satellites crash to earth, this is a known effect of the pressure wave of a CME. Isaiah 34:4, Isaiah 28:2

The sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up – Our magnetosphere and atmosphere facing the sun are pushed aside by this multi billion ton pressure wave of superheated hydrogen plasma. Jeremiah 30:23, Isaiah 34:4, 2 Peter 3:7 & 10, Isaiah 51:6

Every mountain and island moved from their place – Tectonic plate movement caused by the microwave effect. Deuteronomy 32:22, Jeremiah 4:23-24, Habakkuk 3:6, Isaiah 13:13 Also may cause a magnetic pole reversal.

Everyone from high to lowly hid themselves – every person on earth will be terrified by what is coming and they scramble for cover. Ezekiel 7:15-19, Zephaniah 1:3 & 11, Luke 21:25-26

They called out: Hide us from the wrath of the Lamb – People will dive for cover and most will survive, as they see this disaster approaching. The main mass of a CME will take 24 - 36 hours to arrive on earth. Isaiah 2:19, Isaiah 28:21-22, Jeremiah 25:38, Luke 23:30

For the great Day of the Lord has come and who can stand? Deuteronomy 32:22, Ezekiel 7:7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Joel 1:15.

This is the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times throughout the Bible, it is this terrible event that enables the establishment of a One World Government. But those who took heed of the warnings, Isaiah 26:20-21, took shelter and at the same time called to the Lord for protection, Acts 2:21, 1 Peter 1:5, Psalms 68:1-3, Joel 2:32 & 3:16 and will receive the great blessings the Lord has for His faithful Christian people.
Everyone the whole world over will experience this event. Luke 21:35

 

[oikonomia]

Your songs are very nice dear one.

Thankyou.

Concerning the "man-child", it is Jesus who was born first, and then there were brethren,
those who believe in and follow Jesus.

This Jesus became in a form in which God could impart Him into man. And this for more than redemption but
for "godliness". Godliness or God-likeness is God manifest in the flesh. The mysterious unseen God became flesh (John 1:1,14).
After perfecting a perfect living He died and rose as "a life giving Spirit" to dispense Himself into man.
the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45b)

It must be that "godliness" start with the first God-man the Lord Jesus and be duplicated in a corporate
body - the church. And it must be that as Christ was vindicated and taken up in glory His body the church also
be so vindicated. To speak more to the man-child of Revelation 12 we should examine carefully the church in 1 Tim. 3:15,16.

But if I delay, I write that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God,
which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth.
And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory. (1 Tim. 3:15,16)

You know Christ came into the world to testify to the truth.
Jesus answered [Pilate] , You say that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I would testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice. (John 18:37)

And the church as the house of the living God is the pillar and base of the truth.
What is that truth? It is the reality that God can be manifested in human form.
First Christ as the Word who was God became flesh and tabernacled among us (John 1:14)

[T]he mystery of godliness means that God in His mystery can be manifested and expressed in the flesh, in human beings.
Godliness is is God manifest in the flesh; the mystery of godliness is God manifested in human beings.
In 1 Tim. 3:15,16 the transition from the mystery of godliness to He implies Christ as the manifestation of
God in the flesh is the mystery of godliness. (Col. 1:27; Gal. 2:20)

The New Testament does not say that only the Son of God was incarnated. Rather it reveas that God was manifestedin the flesh, indicating
that the entire God - the Father, the Son, and the Spirit - was incarnated. Therefore Christ in His incarnation was the Triune God, the entire God manifested in the flesh.

God's manifestation was first in Christ as an individual expression of in the flesh. ( 1 Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; John 1:1,14).
The church consummating as New Jerusalem in the end will be the eternal corporate manifestation of God in the flesh.
But though we all arrive at this a remnant called the man-child goes before like a Gideon's small army on behalf of the entire nation.

First Timothy 3:15,16 with some comments then:

But if I delay, I write that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God,
In the house of God all must conduct themselves by being filled with God.

which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth.
Christ is the truth and the church of the LIVING God is the supporting pillar and base of the truth of the universe.
This truth is not lifeless doctrine but in reality God LIVING in man and man living in God.

And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was manifested in the flesh,
First God was manifested in the Christ.

Justified in the Spirit,
He was justified in becomming the life giving Spirit to be infused into the members of His body the church
vindicting He is God-man to live in us. "the truth is in Jesus" (Eph. 4:21)

Seen by angels,
Christ of course was seen of angels. But the church and the apostles are made a spectacle to angels.
The apostles being forerunning examples of God-men. (1 Cor. 4:9)

Preached among the nations,
Christ both as the first God-man and the saved as His brothers is preached among the nations.

Believed on in the world,
The church encreases in number by men believing into Christ.

Taken up in glory. (1 Tim. 3:15,16)
Here curiously Paul mentions "Taken up in glory" or ascension not before being preached to the nations but afterwards.
The meaning is Christ as the Head was taken up in glory yet His body also in the end is taken up in glory.

A remnant of overcomers who are the first to be taken up in glory is "man-child".
And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5)

In Revelation 12:5 we see the life, death, resurrection and ascension of Christ, the man child.

That we do see His work, attainment, and obtainment as the Head. But this work, attainment, and obtainment is for
His infusing Himself as life into humans. And this brings the greatest glory to God that He is duplicated, mass-produced, and multiplied
in at first a remnant of overcomers.

The life concealed within Him God released by breaking open Him human shell in death and causing Him in resurrection
to become "a life giving Spirit" to impart into man.

Here we see Christ died for duplication and multiplication as well as for redemption.
Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. (John 12:24)

He would not "abide alone". He would fall into the ground to release the divine life within Him to mass-produce into "much fruit."
This "much fruit" is the normal and prevailing church life on the earth in many cities.
Though the majority if Christiandom has been corrupted a remnant "the church of the living God" prevails as "the pillar and base of the truth"
of the Triune God dispesned into His living house. Man-child will be a vindication that some overcame.

[ my caps ]
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of OUR BROTHERS has been cast down, who accuses THEM before our God day and night.
And THEY overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of THEIR testimony, and THEY loved not THEIR soul-life even unto death. (Rev. 12:10,11)

Who else could be the referrent of these plural pronouns in this chapter?
It must refer to those so infused with the life of the Christ who became thier life.

1.) The greater body, the woman of unversal light, is on the run on earth.
2.) The Lord Jesus of course is the original Overcomer. But He did not do so by redemption "by the blood of the Lamb".
3.) The good angels with Michael do prevail against the Devil and his angels. But they are sinless and do not
overcome them "by the blood of the Lamb". Redeemed humans do.
4.) Neither do the good angels with Michael die. So it cannot be said "they [angels] loved not their soul life even unto death."
5.) Nowhere does the Bible say the angels are our brothers. Although the it says they are our ministering servants. (Heb. 1:14)

Verses 12,11 refer to the corporate stronger part within the woman - the man-child.
Of course without Jesus Christ as the Victor, the author and finisher of our faith, there could be no corporate man-child.
Looking away unto Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith, (Heb. 12:2a)

And it is Jesus as the Firstborn Son who is "leading many sons into glory". (Heb. 2:9)

[ Hebrews 12:2 Revelation chapter 5 ]
In verse 10 we see the brethren, those who believe in Christ, the man child.

We must realize that in the Bible what ought to be is not always what happens.
Because all who believe in Christ are not overcomers there is the call to overcome in each of the seven letters to the churches.
This should not surprise us. Paul warned that there must be a manifestation of those who are normal from those below normality.

For first of all, when you come together in the church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and some part of it I believe.
For there must even be parties among you, that those who are approved may become manifest among you. (1 Cor, 11:9)

The defeated are not loved less. They are however less useful to God's plans.
How can we possibly deny this? And we hope to be normal overcoming victors through His sufficient grace.

In verse 11 also we see both the brethren and the man child,

Ah, but the brethren ARE the man-child. And the brethren come from the source of the woman.
The woman was with child. For a season the child is hidden within the body of the woman mother.
The Bible is showing that eventually that stronger part of her must be manifested.

"and they (the brethren) overcame the accuser, by the blood of the Lamb (the man child)" Rev 12:11
I think it is a stretch to try to group brethren together as "man child",
the terms and meanings are clearly separate.

I showed above that the plural pronouns could not refer to anyone else.
It is a stretch to say "THEY" and "THEIR" and "THEM" and "OUR BROTHERS" refers to people nowhere mentioned in the vision.

Besides it clearly speaks of those who are in heaven. How else could they get there except being raptured?
Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. (Rev. 12:12a)

We must not dumb down the revelation of the Bible to accomodate the abnormal situation we see around us in the church.
We must instead ask the Lord to put us with the normal experience of those who are seeking to overcome.

I think much of the timidity which causes saints to deny that the man-child could be a group of saints
is influenced by their observing defeat all around in Christianity. They begin to imagine either this has to be normal
or to think of overcomers would be elitist and unloving.

1.) The overcomers are not an elite. They are normal participants in Christ's all-sufficient grace.
2.) The overcomers are not more loved of Jesus. They are just nornally useful to Jesus for God's purpose.

There should be no "Church of the Overcomers". But it is normal that a local church should endevour
to produce some who are at the standard of normal expected victory in Christ. Do not each of the epistles have this tone?

Other comments about the design of the book of Revelation will follow latter.
Give me a day more to catch up to you.

 

[oikonomia]

Not true.
Seals 1 to 5 were opened when Jesus Ascended. We await the Sixth Seal, which will set the scene for all that must happen before Jesus Returns.

Revelation 6:12-17;
I watched as the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal, – At this moment a Coronal Mass Ejection will explode out from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 3:8, Jeremiah 23:19 Triggered by the attack onto Israel, as per Psalms 83, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 50:1-3, 2 Peter 3:7

There was a violent earthquake – The microwave effect of the short wave spectrum penetrates the earth’s crust, triggering worldwide earthquakes by tectonic plate movement. Haggai 2:6, Deuteronomy 32:22, Isaiah 26:18-20, Amos 8:8-9, Psalms 18:7

The sun turned black as a funeral pall – Acts 2:20 The approaching mass of the CME will obscure the sun. Joel 2:31, Amos 5:20

The moon became a red as blood – Joel 2:31 The superheated hydrogen plasma strikes the moon and causes a thermoluminescent reaction with the metallic oxides of the moon dust. As well as: the bright red reflection of the initial flash. Isaiah 30:26a

Keras I looked up many of your verses on this rather more scientific description of the day of the Lord.

Now the reference to the sun's light being seven times brighter is spoken in a positive tone as a blessing.
It is no spoken negatively as a judgment.

Isaiah 30:23-26

Then He will give rain for your seed, / Which you will sow in the ground, / And the bread of the increase of the ground; / And it will be fat and plenteous. / Your livestock will feed in that day / In a vast pasture.

And the oxen and donkeys that work the ground / Will eat salted fodder that has been winnowed with shovel and fork.

And upon every high mountain / And upon every prominent hill / There will be brooks and streams of water / In the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.

And the light of the moon will be like the light of the sun, / And the light of the sun will be sevenfold, like the light of seven days, / On the day when Jehovah binds up the breach of His people / And heals the wound left from His stroke.

This is encreased sunlight for encreased agricultural bounty I believe.

The stars in the sky fell like ripe figs – All our satellites crash to earth, this is a known effect of the pressure wave of a CME. Isaiah 34:4, Isaiah 28:2

Could well be all the garbage in space comes down as a massive meteor shower like apearance.

The sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up – Our magnetosphere and atmosphere facing the sun are pushed aside by this multi billion ton pressure wave of superheated hydrogen plasma. Jeremiah 30:23, Isaiah 34:4, 2 Peter 3:7 & 10, Isaiah 51:6

I have no comment about the scientific nature this could take on.

Every mountain and island moved from their place – Tectonic plate movement caused by the microwave effect. Deuteronomy 32:22, Jeremiah 4:23-24, Habakkuk 3:6, Isaiah 13:13 Also may cause a magnetic pole reversal.

I didn't examine all these verses yet.

But your reference to Malachi 4:1 - also seems Christ is that Sun of Righteousness with HEALING.
This is blessing to those expecting Him and punishment to those rejecting Him. No?

 

[keras]

Now the reference to the sun's light being seven times brighter is spoken in a positive tone as a blessing.
It is no spoken negatively as a judgment.

Well; for the Lords righteous and faithful people, it will be. But for the ungodly peoples it will be death and disaster.
Look at spaceweather,com They know about Coronal Mass Ejections, when the sun explodes out mases of superheated Hydrogen plasma, with an extremely bright flash.
It is what will happen and it will literally fulfil the hundred plus Prophesies about that terrible Day.

Malachi 4:1 - also seems Christ is that Sun of Righteousness with HEALING.
This is blessing to those expecting Him and punishment to those rejecting Him. No?

Yes.
These Bible verses describe the next prophesied event – how God sends fire to harvest the world of His enemies, those who conspire to attack My people’ Isaish 17:12-14, Romans 2:18, +
This is also the Sixth Seal judgement, reiterated and described in over 100 Bible prophecies. This worldwide judgement of earthquakes, storms and extreme heat, accurately fits how the earth would be affected by an unprecedented magnitude Coronal Mass Ejection. But as Isaiah and many other prophets say, His righteous people, all who call upon the name of the Lord will be protected and saved.

 

[contratodo]

Seals 1 to 5 were opened when Jesus Ascended. We await the Sixth Seal, which will set the scene for all that must happen before Jesus Returns.

I say we are at seal three still, the black horse period of time,
which will be clearly marked by world wide economic collapse.

The seals tell the whole story, seal four being the time of the beast and anti-Christ, death personified.
A literally pale person claiming to be Jesus, causing much death.

You are saying that the seals end off with some special event that then afterwards is the end times.
That's interesting.
I am saying that chapter six describes the whole entire story, so the end is the same end as chapter 19.
The whole entire story is given multiple times in multiple ways each giving different details.

"...the sun became black as sackcloth and the moon became as blood"
Rev 6:12

Joel 2:10 describes the army of the Lord:
"The earth shall quake before them: the heavens shall tremble:
the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall diminish their shining"

Thereby we know that Revelation 19 includes the sun and moon being dark,
because that happens when the Lord returns with His army of resurrected saints,
the Lord utters His voice before His army, Joel 2:11,
which we get a vision of in Revelation 19:21.

 

[contratodo]

I showed above that the plural pronouns could not refer to anyone else.
It is a stretch to say "THEY" and "THEIR" and "THEM" and "OUR BROTHERS" refers to people nowhere mentioned in the vision.

What about THE

And they overcame the accuser, by THE blood of THE Lamb....

The passage is clearly describing two persons THEY the brethren, and THE Lamb.

Christ is a physical man and God, Gods physical form.
He was born a physical helpless baby, lived and taught the good news, died a horrible death, but Physically rose from the dead.
Then He physically ascended up beyond the clouds and beyond the sky. Acts 1:9-11.
There is a physical man sitting in the throne of God alongside the spiritual formless God Almighty.
God Almighty the Father planned since before creation to take physical form as Christ and die on behalf of His creation.
Physical existence comes from Gods thoughts, thereby the physical man Christ existed very first, being the first thing God thought about.

God was manifest in the flesh. Literally.

"He who has seen me has seen the Father" John 14:9

 

[oikonomia]

What about THE

And they overcame the accuser, by THE blood of THE Lamb....

The passage is clearly describing two persons THEY the brethren, and THE Lamb.

Christ is a physical man and God, Gods physical form.
He was born a physical helpless baby, lived and taught the good news, died a horrible death, but Physically rose from the dead.
Then He physically ascended up beyond the clouds and beyond the sky. Acts 1:9-11.
There is a physical man sitting in the throne of God alongside the spiritual formless God Almighty.
God Almighty the Father planned since before creation to take physical form as Christ and die on behalf of His creation.
Physical existence comes from Gods thoughts, thereby the physical man Christ existed very first, being the first thing God thought about.

God was manifest in the flesh. Literally.

"He who has seen me has seen the Father" John 14:9

Surely the blood of the Lamb means the redemptive work of the one and only Son of God.
But God manifest in the flesh extends to those who through redemption have received God's life.

But not only have they received God's life but loved not their own soul-life unto death.
They sought to live by God's life even though they denied their own natural life to the death.
Thier resurrection and rapture is a vindication of this as Christ;s resurrection was vindication that
He lived by the Father's life to the end.

Remember that we are to live by Christ as He lived by the Father.

As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me. (John 6:57)

Remember also that He expects the normal response to following Him is to take up our cross, lose our soul-life
that we may find our true identity in Him.

Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
He who loves his soul-life loses it; and he who hates his soul-life in this world shall keep it unto eternal life.

If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there also My servant will be. If anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him. (John 12:24-26)

The man-child just represents the most normal overcoming ones honored as part of His mystical Body -
the stronger part.