Focused thread, SDA: Feast, New Moon, Sabbath and OT parallels

[tall73]

Just as sacrifices for child birth were added in Exodus that was not there in Genesis.
That does not make child birth a shadow of Christ's death on the cross, nor cause it to end at the cross.

So let's note that you don't think the mere presence of sacrifices attending something make it a shadow. This is your standard.

tall73 said:
But now please explain how the New Moon as a shadow pointed to Jesus' sacrifice.
And explain why it is also listed in Isaiah 66

1. First of all having two worship cycles that are applicable for all eternity after the cross - and apply to all mankind does NOT help your argument against the Sabbath continued for all eternity after the cross. Were we simply not supposed to notice?

You do very little noticing since I didn't say the Sabbath continues after the cross.

2. Secondly the fact that there are TWO distinct worship cycles in that eternity after the cross in the New Earth and not one - means there is no way to munge the Sabbath obserance cycle into "one cycle that is -- every day, or --daily". It leaves it as a completely legit 7th day worship event in the context that Isaiah and his readers would have known - which forever sinks your delete-the-Sabbath argument.

It is like you copy and pasted arguments you usually use without reading. I didn't say the Sabbath was deleted. I noted Paul, James and the believers in Jerusalem keeping it after the cross a number of times already in the thread, which Sabbathblessings, and Seyeong already noted.

3. In the New Earth there are TWO creation events to remember, one in Gen 1-2 and the other in Rev 21 where we are reminded of the making of the "NEW Earth" - so it is not all that surprising that TWO memorials might exist as of that time and not just one. This would in no way "delete the Sabbath" -- so it is not helping your argument in any case ... so it is odd that you would go there.

Is this your strange way of trying to say we should keep the Sabbath now but not the New Moon?

I note you never actually answered the first part of the question.

tall73 said:
But now please explain how the New Moon as a shadow pointed to Jesus' sacrifice.

How was the new moon a shadow? We know it is in Col. 2 And you already set your standard when speaking of child birth. It cannot be just that there were attendant sacrifices. So explain it from Scripture.

Of course, Sabbathblessings did explain it by attendant sacrifices in Numbers 28, which doesn't work, because the Sabbath has the same, but she applies two different standards.

 

[tall73]

To say that God is holy means that God practices holiness, so to say that God's holiness is eternal means that there exists an eternal way to practice holiness, which existed before God gave any instructions for how to do that, so all of God's holy days existed eternally prior to Israel. Keeping the Sabbath holy testifies that there is a Creator who created the world in six days, who rested on the 7th dat, who sanctifies His people, and who saves His people out of bondage, so the way to believe in the truth of these things is by living in a way that testifies about it by keeping the Sabbath holy. Furthermore, the way to practice God's holiness did not change after He did those things, but rather He was acting in accordance with what has always been part of His eternal holiness since the beginning. For example, it was an eternal truth that God saves His people out of bondage even before God created Adam and observing Passover testifies about this eternal truth while refusing to observe Passover would be bearing false witness against this eternal truth. I consider Genesis 2:3 to be a command, but what is holy to God should not be profaned by man, so we would still be obligated to keep the Sabbath holy even if God had never commanded anyone to do that. In Hebrews 4:9-11, we should seek to be like our Creator.

Do you relate this text to the feasts being present prior to Israel?

Genesis 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.

I have seen some advocate that view.

 

[tall73]

Ex 20 is God speaking the TEN - and He points the listener directly at Gen 2:1-3 for the origin of the Sabbath day - set aside and made holy, which fully obligates mankind by that fact alone according to Ex 20.

We agree that in Exodus 20 God is speaking the ten commandments.

We do not agree that he is quoting Genesis 2:1-3.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

The first clause relates the historic reality of God's resting on the seventh day.

The second clause notes that this is the rationale for blessing the Sabbath day, and hallowing it.

However, you are assuming Genesis was written at the time that God spoke from the mountain. And that is unlikely.

Genesis and Exodus form a single narrative, with the end of Genesis going right into the beginning of Exodus, as can be seen below:


Genesis 50:22 So Joseph dwelt in Egypt, he and his father’s household. And Joseph lived one hundred and ten years. 23 Joseph saw Ephraim’s children to the third generation. The children of Machir, the son of Manasseh, were also brought up on Joseph’s knees.
24 And Joseph said to his brethren, “I am dying; but God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land to the land of which He swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.” 25 Then Joseph took an oath from the children of Israel, saying, “God will surely [e]visit you, and you shall carry up my bones from here.” 26 So Joseph died, being one hundred and ten years old; and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt.

Exodus 1:1 Now these are the names of the children of Israel who came to Egypt; each man and his household came with Jacob: 2 Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah; 3 Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin; 4 Dan, Naphtali, Gad, and Asher. 5 All those [a]who were descendants of Jacob were seventy[b] persons (for Joseph was in Egypt already). 6 And Joseph died, all his brothers, and all that generation. 7 But the children of Israel were fruitful and increased abundantly, multiplied and [c]grew exceedingly mighty; and the land was filled with them. 8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph.


Given that Moses recorded what God said at the mountain in the history, the history was likely written after that incident.

And this matters considerably because Moses is writing the whole history from the perspective of the Israelites, looking back, and often, adding explanatory notes that are at times outside the part of the historical narrative where they appear.

So for instance, in recounting the fall Moses jumps ahead in the story and explained why Eve was given that name:

16 To the woman He said:
“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be [e]for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”
17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:
“Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 Both thorns and thistles it shall [f]bring forth for you,
And you shall eat the herb of the field.
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”
20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

In the middle of the narrative of the fall it is stated that Adam named the woman Eve because she was the mother of all the living. But she did not become the mother of all the living until later, recorded in chapter four, so this is an explanatory note placed in the narrative, likely due to reference to pain in child birth in the curses.

In Genesis 14 in relating an historical narrative reference is made to as far as "Dan" which would would make sense to the tribes of Israel as the land inherited by the tribe of Dan, which is spelled out in Moses' time and realized after, but would not make sense at the time of the narrative itself.

In the account of resting in Genesis we see that God ceased His creative work, resting on the 7th day.

2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

Then we see God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, with the rationale that it was because He had rested in it.

3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

The blessing is subsequent to the resting, and the resting forms the rationale. But this is all from the perspective of Moses looking back. The first mention of a Sabbath command is in Exodus 16, and it is explained as a new concept, in relation to the manna.

Now you indicate that there is no command regarding taking the Lord's name in vain prior, and on this we agree. However, there is no confusion as to the concept, as there is with the Sabbath, as introduced in the incident with the manna.

God states the Sabbath as a sign given to Israel:

2 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13 “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 2 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13 “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies[b] you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who [c]profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”2 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13 “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies[b] you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who [c]profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”

Here it is stated that the sabbath is a sign, and a covenant between God and Israel, and the rationale is stated to be God's rest at creation.

Moreover in Ezekiel God distinguishes between the commandments by which one lives if he does them and the Sabbath, which He again says was given as a sign to Israel:

Ezekiel 20:5 “Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, ‘I am the Lord your God.’ 6 On that day I raised My hand in an oath to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands. 7 Then I said to them, ‘Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.’ 8 But they rebelled against Me and would not [a]obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, ‘I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’ 9 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

10 “Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them.’ 12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. 13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths.

The Sabbath was a sign of Israel, in addition to the commandments that if a man does them he shall live.

 

[tall73]

@BobRyan

I have addressed all your various Sabbath talking points, but I would like you to address the actual topic of the focused thread.

So again:

a. What is the relation of the parallel OT texts to Colossians 2?

b. How is the new moon a "shadow"?

 

[Soyeong]

Do you relate this text to the feasts being present prior to Israel?

Genesis 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.

I have seen some advocate that view.

Yes, I thought of that verse when I was writing my last reply, but I forgot to add it. The Bible uses the same Hebrew word "moed" in regard to what they lights are for in Genesis 1:14 as does in regard to God's feasts. There are many important events that coincide with God's feasts and they have important themes that are woven through the NT, so it is worth studying them even for someone who doesn't think that we are obligated to keep them.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

tall73 said:

Explain the "shadow" type of the new moon, please.



There is nothing explained about the new moon that makes it a shadow of the sacrifice. You only point to the fact that offerings were made on it.

The same thing is said about the Sabbath in the same chapter!

Numbers 28:9 ‘And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— 10 this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering.


But you say one has to be a shadow on this basis, and the other not.

But the OT parallel texts (the actual subject of the thread) make clear both are listed, and both are called shadows.

And you just showed why your main argument against the Sabbath being a shadow doesn't make sense. The only thing that makes the new moon a shadow in your argument is prescribed sacrifices in Numbers 28, and the weekly sabbath also has prescribed sacrifices in Numbers 28.

I think the point you keep getting stuck on is the sacrifices.

The Sabbath was made for mankind Mark 2:27 and mankind was made on the sixth day Genesis 1:26 before the very first Sabbath celebrated in the presence of God. Genesis 2:1-3 God hallowed the Sabbath day at Creation Exodus 20:11 and He sanctified and blessed it because man cannot sanctify themselves only God can. Eze 20:13 He also blessed the Sabbath and no man can reverse God's blessing Num 23:20 so you would need a thus saith the Lord to do away with the weekly Sabbath commandment or any commandment.

At Creation the Sabbath was kept. No sacrifices were needed, because man did fall at Creation and as scripture shows, the Sabbath is not connected to sacrifices, it has its own legs.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Not one mention of sacrifices

In the Sabbath commandment, not one word about sacrifices.

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

No one mention of sacrifices, so by scripture it clearly shows that the Sabbath can be kept without sacrifices and if you disagree your argument is with the Text. The Sabbath is still a commandment after the cross Luke 23:56 and no sacrifices. In fact, in all of the New Testament when Sabbath-keeping was about preaching the gospel to Jews and Gentiles no sacrifices at all. For a temporary time after the fall of man, God instituted sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins as well as other types of offerings. Sacrifices were made daily including the Sabbath because people sinned daily even on the Sabbath, but as we can see from clear scripture when sacrifices ended, the Sabbath commandment continued as all scripture about the Sabbath in the NT including after the cross has nothing to do with sacrifices and continues for eternity without sacrifices but for worship, Isaiah 66:22-23 which is what the Sabbath is about our worship and honor to God Isaiah 58:13 on His holy and blessed day made for mankind.

There is more than one sabbath in the bible and maybe your argument would have some legs, if there was only one Sabbath. The annual sabbath(s) ordinances are about sacrifices just like the new moon offerings was about sacrifices and all of these sacrifices, feast days, drink and food offerings all pointed to Jesus. Col 2:17 Hebrews 10:1-22, Every time someone in the OT made one of these offerings/ sacrifices it was pointing to Jesus who took the penalty of sin at the Cross and now instead of sacrificing animals or making offering we can go directly to Jesus who is now our High Priest, and we can go directly to Him and repent for our sins, when one is sorry and has a change in heart.

What did not end is sin. Jesus came to save us from our sins, not in them Matthew 1:21 and sin is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 and Paul quotes from the unit of Ten to define sin Romans 7:7 which God placed together by His divine Authority Exodus 32:16 and man is not above God which is why no editing is allowed to His commandments. Deut 4:2

The New Moons are not married to offerings, just as we see from the clear scripture the Sabbath day is not married to sacrifices. The New Moon is how the Jews kept track of the months. The Sabbath is God's holy day according to His own Words Isaiah 58:13 and nowhere in scripture does God separate Himself from His holy day. Instead, the Lord tells us the Sabbath will continue for all saints from one Sabbath to another and from one New Moon (New Month) to another which means it will be kept for God's people for eternity and there is no mention of offerings or sacrifices here just like in God's perfect plan at Creation when everything will be restored the way God intended. God has always had a law because without law there is no transgression Romans 4:15 which means there is a law in heaven and one instituted at Creation because Adam and Eve sinned, which is what separated man from God. It's silly to think the law in heaven is anything except the divine law that God did not leave up to man to write and is shown to be kept in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of His Temple under His mercy seat that is revealed in heaven Rev 11:19 which is why man cannot edit these laws, it is the work of God alone Exodus 32:16 and man is not above God.

Jesus warns us about lawlessness at His Second Coming Matthew 7:21-23 and those who do not do the will of God and those who He does not know. According to scripture we are known though our obedience to the commandments. 1 John 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

A parallel verse shows it's about the Ten Commandments. Breaking God's law separated us and keeping His commandments reconciles us because we live through faith. Rev 14:12 Romans 3:31 and love 1 John 5:3

One of the last scriptures before the Coming of Jesus Christ

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do [keep] His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers (Breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment #7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (breaking commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (breaking # 9 Exodus 20:16 and breaking any of the commandments). 1 John 2: 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

We will probably have to agree to disagree and this all gets sorted out soon enough.

 

[BobRyan]

We agree that in Exodus 20 God is speaking the ten commandments.

I would hope so. Almost every Christian on the planet will admit that.

Can we also agree that Ex 20:11 is a direct reference to Gen 2:1-3 -- (an equally obvious Bible detail). OR is this asking to much?

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Gen 2:2-3
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

We do not agree that he is quoting Genesis 2:1-3.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Well then at least are differences are highlighted/contrasted glaringly obvious and clear for all the readers.

However, you are assuming Genesis was written at the time that God spoke from the mountain.

On the contrast -- I have no problem with Genesis written while Moses was in the land of Midian.

Not sure this helps your case against the Sabbath sanctified , set apart as a holy day in Gen 2 as also Ex 20:11 insists.

 

[BobRyan]

The first mention of a Sabbath command is in Exodus 16, and it is explained as a new concept, in relation to the manna.

On the contrary we see in Gen 2:1-3 that God made it a sanctified, set-apart, holy day (as Ex 20:11 also affirms) on the 7th day of creation week which is why the week is 7 days long and not six days long.

As almost all Christian denominations affirm.

So then even though Moses writes Exodus at Sinai - it does not mean we need to "delete creation week" or suppose that it did not exist until Sinai. I think everyone sees that point clearly.

Now you indicate that there is no command regarding taking the Lord's name in vain prior, and on this we agree.

In fact there is nothing like the 4th commandment reference in Gen 2:2-3 for "Do not take God's name in vain" in creation week or even the mention of that language at any point before Ex 20.

A fact that is not sufficient to get that command deleted before Ex 20 or even to this very day. As we all know.

However, there is no confusion as to the concept, as there is with the Sabbath, as introduced in the incident with the manna.

God states the Sabbath as a sign given to Israel:

He says the New Covenant is given to Israel - Jer 31:31-34.
He says the Sabbath if for all mankind Is 66:23, Mark 2:27
He specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping in Is 56:6-8

Moreover in Ezekiel God distinguishes between the commandments by which one lives if he does them and the Sabbath, which He again says was given as a sign to Israel:

In Deut 5:22 God says that "He spoke the TEN from the cloud on the mountain...and ADDED NO MORE"

James 2 says to break one is to break them all.

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul

 

[BobRyan]

@BobRyan

I have addressed all your various Sabbath talking points, but I would like you to address the actual topic of the focused thread.

So again:

a. What is the relation of the parallel OT texts to Colossians 2?

b. How is the new moon a "shadow"?

As stated in my prior posts on the Shadow of Christ's sacrifice - the ceremonial holy days that are GIVEN in animal sacrifice - from their origin are given in a shadow form of sacrifice that points directly to Christ's sacrifice.

So for example -- the appointed new moon sacrifice (Numbers 28:11-15);

By contrast we have Gen 2:1-3 and Ex 16 and Ex 20:8-11 with zero sacrifice specified.

So let's note that you don't think the mere presence of sacrifices attending something make it a shadow. This is your standard.

You are glossing over a key detail mentioned in my prior posts on the "Shadow" element.

( I find Spectrum and AToday to often be quite lacking in their attempts to derail scripture evidence for the Sabbath withoutr seriously addressing it. They leave their readers totally unprepared for the discussions that would follow when they try that out)

 

[BobRyan]

Regarding your remark that Is 66 has TWO worship cycle - for all mankind - not "ONE"

1. First of all having two worship cycles that are applicable for all eternity after the cross - and apply to all mankind does NOT help your argument against the Sabbath continued for all eternity after the cross. Were we simply not supposed to notice?

You do very little noticing since I didn't say the Sabbath continues after the cross.

I point out above that your argument is "against the Sabbath continued for all eternity after the cross."

It is like you copy and pasted arguments you usually use without reading. I didn't say the Sabbath was deleted. I noted Paul, James and the believers in Jerusalem keeping it after the cross a number of times already in the thread, which Sabbathblessings, and Seyeong already noted.

So you view it as continued for all eternity after the cross??

 

[tall73]

I think the point you keep getting stuck on is the sacrifices.

That is because you described how the new moon was a shadow based on the sacrifices. It was your answer I was responding to.

To review:
tall73 said:
Explain the "shadow" type of the new moon, please.

SabbathBlessings said:
Numbers 28:11 At the beginnings of your months, you shall offer a burnt offering to the Lord: two bulls from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old without blemish;. This is a shadow, as all offerings and sacrifices pointed to Jesus

Colossians lists the new moon as a shadow, so we know that it is. I asked you to explain the reason and you said because of the sacrifices. But then when I pointed out that the Sabbath also has sacrifices in the same chapter you then said:

The New Moons are not married to offerings, just as we see from the clear scripture the Sabbath day is not married to sacrifices.

The new moon is called a shadow in Colossians, and you said it was because of the sacrifices. But now you say it is not married to sacrifices. And the same text you use to show assembly on the Sabbath also shows assembly on the new moon.

So why is the new moon a shadow?

 

[tall73]

I would hope so. Almost every Christian on the planet will admit that.

Can we also agree that Ex 20:11 is a direct reference to Gen 2:1-3 -- (an equally obvious Bible detail). OR is this asking to much?

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Gen 2:2-3
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Well then at least are differences are highlighted/contrasted glaringly obvious and clear for all the readers.

On the contrast -- I have no problem with Genesis written while Moses was in the land of Midian.

Not sure this helps your case against the Sabbath sanctified , set apart as a holy day in Gen 2 as also Ex 20:11 insists.

I was saying you think it was ALREADY written to quote at the time of the speaking from the mountain. I know you think it was written in Midian, and we both know why.

 

[tall73]

So then even though Moses writes Exodus at Sinai - it does not mean we need to "delete creation week" or suppose that it did not exist until Sinai. I think everyone sees that point clearly.

The creation week is not deleted in any case. But there is no command given to people in Genesis.

It is given to Israel starting in Ex. 16 and called a sign with them.

He says the New Covenant is given to Israel - Jer 31:31-34.

Yes, the new covenant is with Israel. But those reading Acts 15, 21, etc. will see that the Jewish believers who were zealous for the law continued to keep all of it, but the gentiles were not required to be circumcised and keep the whole law.

And no, of course that does not mean they are to go out and kill, etc. as they are to live by the Spirit.

But Col. 2 uses the well known listing of appointed times, that by the OT paralles we see includes the weekly sabbath, and says not to judge on it and calls it, along with the new moon, etc. a shadow.

And Romans 14 reiterates the same theme, of not judging people on keeping of days.

He specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping in Is 56:6-8

Already addressed of course, but you didn't address the answer, just repeated again.

We don't see nations of gentiles keeping the Sabbath throughout the OT. We see the text you reference saying if someone from those gentile nations joins themselves and takes on the covenant then they will be blessed. The Sabbath was a sign with Israel, and they were joining themselves to it.

In Deut 5:22 God says that "He spoke the TEN from the cloud on the mountain...and ADDED NO MORE"

Which doesn't address the topic statement at all in Ezekiel. He distinguished between commandments by which one would live and the Sabbaths, which He called a sign with Israel.

James 2 says to break one is to break them all.

Already discussed at length with Sabbathblessings, the passage starts out referencing a part of the law outside of the ten on partiality.

And yes, there are many laws that you become a lawbreaker by breaking. And of course, you would also suffer severe penalty for failure to observe the Passover as an Israelite. But you don't advocate observing the passover now. And it is because it is a shadow. But you won't look at what the OT parallel passages (which are the topic of the thread) say about the weekly Sabbath, that is is also included in that list in Col. 2

We are not to judge on the shadows per Col. 2 and Romans 14.

 

[tall73]

As stated in my prior posts on the Shadow of Christ's sacrifice - the ceremonial holy days that are GIVEN in animal sacrifice - from their origin are given in a shadow form of sacrifice that points directly to Christ's sacrifice.

Bob the new moon is said to be a shadow, so I believe it. But you have not pointed out how it points directly to Christ.

And you have yet again refused to speak to the actual focused topic of the thread.

The listing of appointed times is based on the similar OT listings of such, which included the Sabbath, which did indeed include sacrifices. And most of those listings trace right back to Numbers 28-29. He is listing the appointed times, of which the weekly Sabbath was one, and says they were shadows.

Perhaps you should go back and read the posts of @Soyeong and I in the thread. Then you would realize that Paul, the believers in Jerusalem all kept the Sabbath, and the whole law (even the passover, even the sacrifices) after the cross, though the passover, new moon, sacrifices, etc. were shadows.

You are glossing over a key detail mentioned in my prior posts on the "Shadow" element.

The key detail of your double standard? The new moon significance is not spelled out in that text. Only the sacrifice is spelled out, as it is for the Sabbath.

( I find Spectrum and AToday to often be quite lacking in their attempts to derail scripture evidence for the Sabbath withoutr seriously addressing it. They leave their readers totally unprepared for the discussions that would follow when they try that out)

You would know more about liberal Adventist magazines than I would. Acts 21 is not from Spectrum magazine. And neither are the OT parallel texts to Col. 2 you refuse to address.

 

[tall73]

So you view it as continued for all eternity after the cross??

Given that even several of the feasts were said to be statutes forever with Israel, it likely will be. I think there is a case that the Isaiah text is speaking of a time of possible covenant obedience, as we have looked at the details before that don't match the current timeline, as even you seemed to acknowledge. But I would think it likely the sabbath AND the new moon will endure in the new earth.

But it certainly was after the cross as Paul, the Jewish believers were keeping it, etc. And they were keeping the new moon. And they were keeping the whole law.

I gave the same view as I have in this thread in a number of our past discussions. Perhaps you should do a bit more reading before pasting your usual proof texts while dodging the topic.

Where I differ with our fellow-poster @Soyeong is that I take Col. 2 and Romans 14 to indicate that we are not to judge regarding shadows. But the Sabbath is still the Sabbath, not Sunday. The new moon is still the new moon. I don't think Christians are bound to keep them as a legal code as Israel was. But neither do I think they vanished, as myriads of believers in Jerusalem kept them. But they made a distinction between them and the gentile believers in Acts 21.

Now that is not to say gentiles can't gain a blessing from them too, and I think history shows many did.

I also posted about the bishop in Ephesus who had practiced the removal of leaven from his house as part of the services surrounding Nisan 14 as a gentile, and those of other parts of Asia did so, claiming to have received it from John.

Jerome and Epiphanius tell us about the Nazarenes who were Jewish believers in Christ who kept the whole law as did James, etc.

And of course you have some such as Justin Martyr who grudgingly acknowledged that Jewish believers who kept the law were likely saved, though by that time he thought them weak minded, a sign of the growing separation between the two, which I see as unnecessary. In Acts 21 they defended Paul as a law keeper while also indicating the gentiles did not have to keep the whole law of Moses. And as a result evangelism flourished among the Jews who wouldn't accept Christians who rejected the law. And it flourished among gentiles who would be held back by unneeded physical circumcision, or even feast keeping in some instances.

But of course Paul and James, etc. were not weak minded. They were continuing to do the law which pointed to Christ among those who observed the law.

 

[Soyeong]

Where I differ with our fellow-poster @Soyeong is that I take Col. 2 and Romans 14 to indicate that we are not to judge regarding shadows. But the Sabbath is still the Sabbath, not Sunday. The new moon is still the new moon. I don't think Christians are bound to keep them as a legal code as Israel was. But neither do I think they vanished, as the believers in Israel kept them.

Why do you disagree with what I said about Colossians 2? As with both Colossians 2 and Romans 14, it is important to be careful not to mistake what was only said against following the teachings or opinions of man as being spoke against obeying the commands of God, especially because God did not have the authority to countermand God.

In Romans 14:1 the subject of the chapter was in regard to how to handle disputable matters of opinion, not in regard to whether followers of God should follow what He has commanded, so nothing in the chapter should be interpreted as teaching rebellion against God. Where God has given a clear command human opinion must yield, but where God has given no command, then we are free to follow our own opinions. For example, in regard Romans 14:2-3, God gave no command to eat only vegetables, yet people were judging and resenting each other based on whether or not someone chose to do that, so it was this sort of judging each other over opinions that Paul was addressing in this chapter.

Paul was not suggesting that we are free to commit murder, adultery, theft, idolatry, kidnapping, rape, favoritism, break the Sabbath or disobey any of God's other laws as long as we are convinced in our own minds that it is ok to rebel against God, but rather that was only said in regard to issues that are disputable matters of opinion in which God has given no command.

In Romans 14:4-5, Paul spoke about eating or refraining from eating unto the Lord, so he was speaking about people who esteemed certain days for fasting as a disputable matter of opinion. In the 1st century it had become a common practice to fast twice a week and people were judging and resenting each other over whether they chose to do that even though God gave no command to do that (Luke 18:12). The Sabbath is not even mentioned once in Romans 14 precisely because it had nothing to do with the topic that Paul was discussing. The reason why were are to keep the Sabbath holy is not because man esteemed it a disputable matter of opinion, but because God made the world in six days, rested on the seventh, blessed it, made it holy, and commanded His people to keep it holy.

In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him was if hey taught against obeying God's law, if you think that Paul did that, then according to God you should consider him to be a false prophet. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so we should be quicker to disregard everything that any man has said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, though the reality is that Paul was a servant of God, so he never spoke against anyone obeying anything that God has commanded.

But they made a distinction between them and the gentile belivers in Acts 21.

Either Acts 15:19-21 is an exhaustive list for everything that would ever be required of mature Gentile believers or it is not, so it is contradictory to treat it as being a non-exhaustive list by saying that there are obviously other laws that Gentiles should follow, such as the greatest two commandments, while also treating it as being an exhaustive list to limit which laws Gentiles should follow. However, it was not intended to be an exhaustive list for mature Gentile believers, but as stated, it was a list intended to make things not too difficult for new believers, which they excused by saying that Gentiles would continued to learn about Moses by hearing him taught each Sabbath in the synagogue, which also implies that they were expecting Gentiles to continue keeping the Sabbath in accordance with following Christ's example.

And of course you have some such as Justin Martyr who grudgingly acknowledged that Jewish believers who kept the law were likely saved, though by that time he thought them weak minded, a sign of the growing separation between the two.

My congregation had a study where we read through what we dubbed as Justin Martyr's Monologue with Trypho and while he said some things that we agreed with, he also used a lot of bad arguments, though it was good that he conceded that Jewish believers who kept the law will be saved.

 

[tall73]

Why do you disagree with what I said about Colossians 2?

I will post regarding the context and meaning of Colossians 2 before long, but it may not be tonight. And we can look at Romans 14 and Acts 15 and 21 if you like.

My congregation had a study where we read through what we dubbed as Justin Martyr's Monologue with Trypho and while he said some things that we agreed with, he also used a lot of bad arguments, though it was good that he conceded that Jewish believers who kept the law will be saved.

Yes, the dialogue with Trypho is interesting, but I think Justin Martyr shows how far things had gone, because he would essentially be calling James, etc. weak minded, and misguided, and they were obviously not.

By the time we get to Chrysostom we have even more inflammatory rhetoric.

 

[tall73]

In Colossians 2:16-23, Paul described the people who were judging the Colossians as promoting human precepts and teachings, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body

Before we fully go through things I realized there is an element of your view I am not that familiar with. I have talked with Bob for years, and Sabbathblessings a fair amount, so I have an idea of their views.

Here you list various parts of the immediate context, which does indeed need to be figured into the interpretation, but you left out an element even closer in proximity, which was his discussion on circumcision.

Do you think all Christians should be physically circumcised?

 

[BobRyan]

Given that even several of the feasts were said to be statutes forever with Israel, it likely will be. I think there is a case that the Isaiah text is speaking of a time of possible covenant obedience, as we have looked at the details before that don't match the current timeline, as even you seemed to acknowledge. But I would think it likely the sabbath AND the new moon will endure in the new earth.

If the Sabbath remains for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth - and is applicable to all mankind in the New Earth as you affirm then what possible objection can you have to it at this point?

 

[tall73]

If the Sabbath remains for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth - and is applicable to all mankind in the New Earth as you affirm then what possible objection can you have to it at this point?

I don't have an objection to it, which is why I said many, including gentiles, may be blessed by it.

But I object to judging regarding it on the basis of the texts. In the same way I don't object to the passover, and some gentile Christians still observed it as well. I don't object to the new moon either. But like you I am not observing it now, even if I may in the new earth.

What possible objection could you have to the new moon now since you seemed fine with two cyclical times in the new earth?